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Weren't Adam and Eve Naked in The Garden?

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On 12/21/2018 at 3:53 PM, SoRoUsH said:

Salam, 

يَا بَنِي آدَمَ لَا يَفْتِنَنَّكُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ كَمَا أَخْرَجَ أَبَوَيْكُم مِّنَ الْجَنَّةِ يَنزِعُ عَنْهُمَا لِبَاسَهُمَا لِيُرِيَهُمَا سَوْآتِهِمَا ۗ إِنَّهُ يَرَاكُمْ هُوَ وَقَبِيلُهُ مِنْ حَيْثُ لَا تَرَوْنَهُمْ ۗ إِنَّا جَعَلْنَا الشَّيَاطِينَ أَوْلِيَاءَ لِلَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

Here's the order of events: 

  • Adam and Eve were naked. 
  • Adam and Eve ate from the free, 
  • Adam and Eve covered themselves. 

Something if not right here. 

  1. How did Iblis "strip them of their clothing", if they were already naked? 
  2. How did Iblis do so by persuading them to eat food? (Eating food doesn't cause your clothes to come off.)
  3. If Iblis didn't take off their clothes, then why did they cover themselves? 

 

Thanks!

Answer 1: How did we infer that Adam and Eve were naked in the beginning? 7:22 suggests otherwise:

[Shakir 7:22] Then he caused them to fall by deceit; so when they tasted of the tree, their evil inclinations became manifest to them, and they both began to cover themselves with the leaves of the garden; and their Lord called out to them: Did I not forbid you both from that tree and say to you that the Shaitan is your open enemy?

[Pickthal 7:22] Thus did he lead them on with guile. And when they tasted of the tree their shame was manifest to them and they began to hide (by heaping) on themselves some of the leaves of the Garden. And their Lord called them, (saying): Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you: Lo! Satan is an open enemy to you?

[Yusufali 7:22] So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"

Answer 2: Satan convinced them to disobey Allah. Their disobedience resulted in their humility. Is it really too hard to understand?

Answer 3: Too much literal, maybe?
 

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2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Not really, but even if that was so, the same problem remains. Before eating from the tree, they were not complete humans as they did not have full awareness. 

Not quite so.

Think of it as a child - they have to be taught shame and to wear clothes. A child may be conscious about his nakedness but not aware of the shame of being naked until someone instills this thought in his mind.

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1 hour ago, Abbas. said:

Answer 1: How did we infer that Adam and Eve were naked in the beginning? 7:22 suggests otherwise:

[Shakir 7:22] Then he caused them to fall by deceit; so when they tasted of the tree, their evil inclinations became manifest to them, and they both began to cover themselves with the leaves of the garden; and their Lord called out to them: Did I not forbid you both from that tree and say to you that the Shaitan is your open enemy?

[Pickthal 7:22] Thus did he lead them on with guile. And when they tasted of the tree their shame was manifest to them and they began to hide (by heaping) on themselves some of the leaves of the Garden. And their Lord called them, (saying): Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you: Lo! Satan is an open enemy to you?

[Yusufali 7:22] So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"

Answer 2: Satan convinced them to disobey Allah. Their disobedience resulted in their humility. Is it really too hard to understand?

Answer 3: Too much literal, maybe?
 

1) They covered themselves, implying they were uncovered or naked. Other verses suggest they covered their private parts, implying their private parts were exposed or uncovered. If they were already covered, why did they cover themselves again with leaves? What exactly did they cover with leaves, if they were already covered? 

2) But why did they cover themselves? Their private parts? Were they boastful before, walking nude in The Garden? And once they disobeyed Allah, they were humiliated and didn't want to be naked anymore? 

3) No. 

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Not quite so.

Think of it as a child - they have to be taught shame and to wear clothes. A child may be conscious about his nakedness but not aware of the shame of being naked until someone instills this thought in his mind.

Same problem. 

Why was Allah "testing" a child-like human? When children make mistakes, their punishment isn't usually as severe as kicking them out of paradise, because, precisely, we realize they are children. We don't treat them like adults. 

Edited by SoRoUsH

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24 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Same problem. 

Why was Allah "testing" a child-like human? When children make mistakes, their punishment isn't usually as severe as kicking them out of paradise, because, precisely, we realize they are children. We don't treat them like adults. 

Child-like was an analogy to explain "awareness".

Adult: Can drive the car over 70mph but was not aware that speed limit is 65mph.

Why does Allah test anyone? 

Allah punished but also forgave. Normal adults punish children at times to teach a valuable lesson.

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2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Child-like was an analogy to explain "awareness".

Adult: Can drive the car over 70mph but was not aware that speed limit is 65mph.

Why does Allah test anyone? 

Allah punished but also forgave. Normal adults punish children at times to teach a valuable lesson.

If Adam and Eve became in any way more complete, after eating from the tree, that means before they ate from the tree, they were incomplete. 

If you're saying they became aware of their nakedness, this implies that they were unaware of being naked. And it brings to question, how can adult conscious individuals be unaware that they're walking nude in a garden? How could they not have been aware that they were naked? 

Edited by SoRoUsH

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5 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

If Adam and Eve became in any way more complete, after eating from the tree, that means before they ate from the tree, they were incomplete. 

I learn something new everyday. It has nothing to do with being a complete human. They didn't have complete knowledge.

5 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

If you're saying they became aware of their nakedness, this implies that they were unaware of being naked. And it brings to question, how can adult conscious individuals be unaware that they're walking nude in a garden? How could they not have been aware that they were naked? 

They became aware that being naked is shameful - that's the awareness part. To this day, nakedness or shame about being naked is a learned trait. 

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2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I learn something new everyday. It has nothing to do with being a complete human. They didn't have complete knowledge.

They became aware that being naked is shameful - that's the awareness part. To this day, nakedness or shame about being naked is a learned trait. 

They didn't have the knowledge that they ought to cover their private parts? Or they didn't have the knowledge to that they're walking around nude? Or they didn't have the knowledge that being naked in shameful? It seems you're inclined towards the latter. 

If that's the case, then how did eating from the tree make them aware that it's shameful? Did they learn something new? Or did they remember something they already knew but had forgotten?

If they had forgotten that it's shameful, and were continuously disobeying God by walking nude in the Garden, why didn't God reprimand them for that? 

If they didn't know that it's shameful, then why did they react as they did and quickly covered their private parts? 

 

Whichever of the above options you believe, you also ought to believe, then, that Adam and Eve were not like modern, "normal" conscious adults. Whether they didn't know they're walking around naked, or they didn't know it's shameful to do so, it's safe to say they weren't like us. Can you imagine a healthy conscious adult, follower of God, walking around nude, shamelessly? 

 

Edited by SoRoUsH

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5 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

They didn't have the knowledge that they ought to cover their private parts? Or they didn't have the knowledge to that they're walking around nude? Or they didn't have the knowledge that being naked in shameful? It seems you're inclined towards the latter. 

 

The bold above.  Not sure why it's so surprising because as I said, nakedness being shameful is a learned trait. Because it is a learned trait, it means it is not part of our innate nature.

5 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

If that's the case, then how did eating from the tree make them aware that it's shameful? Did they learn something new? Or did they remember something they already knew but had forgotten?

I hope you realize that food has different kinds of affect on us - different food, different affect.

5 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

If they didn't know that it's shameful, then why did they react as they did and quickly covered their private parts? 

How quickly/slowly does food impact us? Ever seen someone with chest pain take a sublingual nitrate pill for instant relief?

5 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Whichever of the above options you believe, you also ought to believe, then, that Adam and Eve were not like modern, "normal" conscious adults. Whether they didn't know they're walking around naked, or they didn't know it's shameful to do so, it's safe to say they weren't like us. Can you imagine a healthy conscious adult, follower of God, walking around nude, shamelessly? 

 

Shame is a learned trait so I can imagine someone who doesn't know/think it is shameful to be naked and be a follower of God.

Not sure why you are trying to rationalize Adam/Eve with 21st century humans. Even humans from the earliest 20th century are not like us. I know kids today who don't know how to roll down a manual window. Are they not normal? I know kids who don't know what a cassette is or a floppy disk is. Are they not normal?

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11 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

nakedness being shameful is a learned trait

I agree. What is not clear to me is how id they learn it? How is eating from the tree causally linked to learning about the shame of being naked?

11 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I hope you realize that food has different kinds of affect on us - different food, different affect.

16 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Yes, of course. However, I cannot imagine a food that causes the knowledge of shame. Foods certainly have different physiological effects. Howver, are you implying that they also have epistemological effects? You're implying that certain foods give us knowledge. Is this your proposition? That the food of the tree in the Garden gave Adam and Eve a knowledge that they did not have previously? It caused an additional piece of (epistemological) knowledge about a moral precept?

If so, one wonders, why would Allah prevent eating from this tree, if it has such positive moral and epistemological implications?

11 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

 Shame is a learned trait so I can imagine someone who doesn't know/think it is shameful to be naked and be a follower of God

Yes, it is. (Of course, some people would argue it comes with our fitra. And if Adam and Eve shared our fitra, then they already knew about shame of nakedness.)

One wonders, why didn't God teach Adam, when He taught him all names, about the shame of nakedness? 

11 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Not sure why you are trying to rationalize Adam/Eve with 21st century humans

I'm talking about the essence of humanity, the Fitra. 

I'm imagining the scene of Adam's creation. 

Angels bowing to a naked Adam. 

God teaching naked Adam all the names. 

Naked Adam and Eve walking around in the Garden, carelessly. 

 

It's not easy to imagine this to be true. 

 

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As salaamun aleikum, 

Could it be that it wasnt the literal eating/injestion/digestion of the fruit/apple that caused them to become aware of their nakedness and/or to first experience "certain inclinations", but that it was the comittance of the ACTION that caused them to become aware of their naked selves/certain inclinations? 

My understanding is that our actions have immediate effects on our souls, which is the reason why we are supposed to ask for forgiveness immediately and make tawbah as soon as possible when we commit certain acts, however, asking for forgiveness of Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى doesnt mean we dont still suffer the natural consequences of our actions, only that Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى in sha Allah forgives us.

Maybe this is the case here, that the natural consequence of them choosing to eat the fruit resulted in them becoming aware of and therefore experiencing certain drives of a lower state, that this was the natural consequence of that choice, not that it had anything to do with actually eating from the tree.

Basically, cause and effect.

Its possible that they were in fact naked, but that they were operating in a much higher and purer spiritual state where this nakedness was of no consequence or ill effect to them, until they made a choice that "demoted" them spiritually, hence their lowering/descending. They became aware of desires/drives/inclinations of a lesser (material/animalistic) degree that they had been blind to or unaware of prior to then, but which was absolutely necessary as Adam(AS) was always intended  for Earth, and being able to reproduce is necessary here, but apparently not where they were, in a higher spirituall state/realm. I mean, our whole challenge and goal here is to return to Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. This means striving to in sha Allah find a balance within our selves and to purify ourselves as much as possible before we die, a returning to a spiritually pure state as close to Adams(AS) original state as possible, and in sha Allah whatever we are unable to achieve while we are still alive here, we will be thoroughly purified of once we pass from this life.

W/s

Edited by shia farm girl

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When Adam and his wife forgot God's advise and approached the forbidden area where the devil lurked 20:115, he immidiately began whispering to them his evil suggestions and attempted to convince them that 20:120,7:20"Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals". He was implying that Allah was deceiving them by wishing them to remain weak and mortal creatures, and that he was their well wisher who could make them rise above their ingrained weaknesses. The tree in itself had no particular powers but it was, as always, a medium, a smokescreen behind which a deeper and more significant objective was meant to be fulfilled. The object being 7:20"to reveal to them what was hidden from them of their shamefulness". This shows that from the begining, mankind is ingrained with a sense of shame for which he feels the need to cover, and that it is contrary to human nature for one's private parts to be openly exposed.

 

It is interesting to note that the account does not give the intricate details of how, through the medium chosen by Iblis, Adam and Eve's shamefulness, ie nakedness were exposed and this is highly relevant for the applicability of the lesson for all times 7:22"So, he (Satan) lured them with falsehood. So, when they tasted the tree, their shamefulness/nakedness became revealed to them". The exposition of mankind's private parts has always been achieved, and still is, through countless ways 7:27"let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their nakedness, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them". And it is interesting to note, knowing how widespread and normal the sight of one another's shameful body parts has become, that the Quran places that objective as the most primary goal of Iblis.

 

After the account of Adam and Eve and the manner by which they were deceived into exposing their nakedness, Allah turns to mankind, saying that 7:26"We sent down to you clothing to hide your nakedness". Allah attributes here to Himself the ability to cloth oneself in order to give it a blessed aspect, considering how it diametrically opposes the evil entities' most basic desire for mankind. It is "sent down" by God, a phrase used for rainwater, or even revelation.

Through the term "reeshan" the verse then mentions the fact that there is absolutely nothing wrong in using that clothing for embelishment, in fact the Quran in general doesnt deny the use of means of all sorts with the objective of beautifying one's appearance, and at all circumstances, including during worship. This sharply contrasts with the corrupt notion of associating piety with disregard for physical appearance and hygiene, as is often the case whether in Judaism, Christianity or the pagan religions. But it immediately strikes a balance by stating that the primary goal of clothing is to guard from moral and spiritual corruption so this factor of embelishment should not be wrongly channeled 35:12,7:31"O'children of Adam! wear your beautiful apparel at every time and place of prayer, and eat and drink but do not act extravagantly; verily He does not like the extravagant (ones)". Therefore no type of clothing is better from that perspective than the clothing of taqwa/God-consciousness. Man is thus told to keep his garments in a state of purity 74:4. The "provisions of God-consciousness" are used in the same sense in 2:197.

 

The whole passage therefore ends with a warning to mankind 7:27"O children of Adam, let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their private parts".

After they ate from the tree and saw that their condition didnt change as promised to them by Iblis (they didnt become immortal angels), Adam and Eve realized their transgression as often happens when a sincere person comes back to his senses after a mistake or a sin, or when caught doing something wrong. They realized they had been deceived into inappropriately showing their nakedness 7:20-2"So, the shaytan whispered/waswasa to the two of them..And he swore to them both: Most surely I am a sincere adviser to you. So, he lured/fadallahuma them with falsehood.." 4:120"He gives them promises and excites vain desires in them; and the Shaitan does not promise them but to deceive". From a linguistic perspective, dallahuma stems from d-l-w used for the dangling of the bucket in a well to pull out water from it. It implies the anticipation of good results since succeeding in getting water is a good result and good expectation. It is also used in the context of animal hunting, slowly making it approach, attracted by a bucket at the end of a rope which is progressively drawn closer. Through the use of this word, as well as of waswasa, what transpires is that Iblis' deception succeeded only after many persistent and gradual exhortation. 

As their senses came back to them, they realized what his true purpose was, and now knowing that the exposition of one's private parts is an unnatural, evil inspired deed, began immidiately piling up tree leaves upon themselves and sewing them 7:22"he mislead them through deceit; so when they tasted of the tree, their private parts became manifest to them, and they began to cover themselves with pieced-together leaves from the garden". As stated in the Hebrew Bible Gen3:7"And the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked, and they sewed fig leaves and made themselves girdles". What interestingly appears is that, as stated above concerning the naturalness of the feeling of shame and need to cover up one's private parts, Adam and Eve knew exactly how to proceed in order to hide their private parts and nakedness yet they hadnt been shown how prior.

They were then called out and confronted with their transgression 7:22"Did I not forbid you both from that tree and say to you that the Shaitan is your open enemy?". They were told that although they had now lost all advantages they had in the garden in regards to general physical comfort, they would still find provision on the Earth until an appointed time 2:36,7:24. Adam and Eve accepted the consequences of their disobedience and took on themselves the full responsibility of their act, contrary to the Bible account where they began immaturely fingerpointing eachother and refused to repent. God then banished them from the Garden, and they immidiately asked God to forgive them 7:23.

Edited by Nad_M

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8 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

I agree. What is not clear to me is how id they learn it? How is eating from the tree causally linked to learning about the shame of being naked?

What if it was the Fruit of Shame?

8 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

I agree. What is not clear to me is how id they learn it? How is eating from the tree causally linked to learning about the shame of being naked?

Yes, of course. However, I cannot imagine a food that causes the knowledge of shame. Foods certainly have different physiological effects. Howver, are you implying that they also have epistemological effects? You're implying that certain foods give us knowledge. Is this your proposition? That the food of the tree in the Garden gave Adam and Eve a knowledge that they did not have previously? It caused an additional piece of (epistemological) knowledge about a moral precept?

I think you are imagining a tree in Heaven to be like a tree on earth. If you can imagine Heaven, then you should be able to imagine a tree with fruit that can cause any change including epistemological change.

13 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Yes, it is. (Of course, some people would argue it comes with our fitra. And if Adam and Eve shared our fitra, then they already knew about shame of nakedness.)

One wonders, why didn't God teach Adam, when He taught him all names, about the shame of nakedness? 

Hunting is in a lion's instinct (nature) but young lions are taught how to hunt (nurture) (replace with predatory animal). Similarly, some knowledge we are born with (nature), other knowledge is learned (nurture).

13 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

I'm talking about the essence of humanity, the Fitra. 

I'm imagining the scene of Adam's creation. 

Angels bowing to a naked Adam. 

God teaching naked Adam all the names. 

Naked Adam and Eve walking around in the Garden, carelessly. 

 

It's not easy to imagine this to be true. 

 

Allah is everywhere...even when we are naked. Angels "see" us naked all the time too.

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30 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Allah is everywhere...even when we are naked. Angels "see" us naked all the time too.

The first group of verses are those where the verb is used in the active form: "O Sons of Adam, do not let yourself be tempted by Satan, as when he brought your parents out of Paradise, ripping off their clothes to show their shame" [2 ]  

Quran 7:27

1.              The phrase "tearing off their clothes" that attributes the act of tearing to Satan is actually attributing it to the cause, that is, since Satan is the cause of this, the action is attributed to him.

2.              The letter "lam" that precedes the expression "layuriyahuma" (to show them) has the meaning of "consequence" in the sense that the consequence of this their action has been that their pudenda have been revealed. In other words, God has set as the end of Satan that the pudenda of Adam (A) and Eve (A) are revealed and, eating the fruit, the consequence of their action has been nudity.

3.              What kind of dress did they wear before eating the fruit? Was it the kind of clothes we wear now or something else? He claims that some say this dress was made of light and others consider it a metaphor for taqwa , others consider it a heavenly habit, as can be deduced from the exoteric meaning of the verse [5] .

The second group includes the verses where verbs derived from the root "bada yabdu" were used:"They both ate them and became aware of their nudity. They began to cover themselves intertwining leaves of the Garden " [6] , and likewise the verse: " Satan tempted them to make evident [the nakedness] that was hidden from them " [7] and other similar verses in other suras.

Initially it is necessary to clarify the meaning of the verbs "badat" and "yabdi" that come from the root "bada". From this word can we deduce that before this story Adam (A) and Eve (A) were ignorant of the thing? Or is it not possible to deduce this, that is, before they were ignorant of it and then they came to know it? The exegesis report that the meaning of the word "bada" is "to reveal itself" [8] , whose opposite is "to be hidden" and not "to be ignorant".

 

Yes, what they previously hid will be made clear" [9] ; this verse is about sinners: when they are placed before the Fire, they will want to return to this world to remedy what they have lost. In this case the meaning of "bada" is not "not being" and then "being", and ignorance and then knowledge can not be deduced from it first. The same goes for the verse taken into consideration, from that word it can not be inferred that Adam (A) and Eve (A) were ignorant of the thing, since this ignorance can not be demonstrated through the Qur'an and the hadiths.

 

The verb used in the phrase "that was hidden from them" means "to put something behind what covers it" [10] 

Even the story of Adam (A) and Eve (A) is so, that is, they, possessing the gift of a dress of light or a suit of taqwa , or other, did not pay attention to the indecency of their pudenda; when this gift was taken from them, they became accounts and it became clear to them.

 

Their knowledge is shown by the fact that, after having lost this gift and realizing the indecency of revealing pudenda, they tried to cover themselves with tree leaves: "They both ate and became aware of their nudity. They began to cover themselves intertwining leaves of the garden "[12] , from this sentence we can deduce that this gift was hidden from them and not that they ignored it; in fact, as soon as the gift was taken from him, they realized it and tried to cover his own pudenda.

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