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In the Name of God بسم الله
Asghar Ali Karbalai

Taqleed of today's Scholar

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السَّلآمُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَةُ الله وبَرَكآتُه 

Respected brothers and sisters

Hope you are fine إِنْ شَاء َ اللَّه.

Q. Are you in Taqleed?.

Q. If yes, then why?.

Q. If no, then why?.

Kindly explain what Moula Ali(asws) means to say when he is saying, Blind taqleed is kufr in Nehj ul Balagha?.

I am going away from Taqleed because of everyday issues and discrepancies about our Iran and Iraq Scholars. And durood being changed unfortunately to Salle ala mohammad noor e khomeni amad.

And because of celebrating eid among our scholars on different days and because of fatwa AGAINST 'matam e 3rd Qibla'. Beating yourself.

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Taqleed is very important and necessary. I believe a lot of our scholars do hold the belief that all our actions are in vain if we don't do taqleed. This idea of taqleed is in the Quran and it has nothing to do with blind faith. 

"And it is not for the believers to go forth to battle all at once for there should  separate from every division of them a group (remaining) to obtain understanding in religion and warn their people when they return to them that they might be cautious".

Quran 9:122

Quran is only against blindly following those who had no understanding of religion.

And when it is said to them, "Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger," they say, "Sufficient for us is that upon which we found our fathers." Even though their fathers knew nothing, nor were they guided?

Quran 5:104

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3 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

السَّلآمُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَةُ الله وبَرَكآتُه 

Respected brothers and sisters

Hope you are fine إِنْ شَاء َ اللَّه.

Q. Are you in Taqleed?.

Q. If yes, then why?.

Q. If no, then why?.

Kindly explain what Moula Ali(asws) means to say when he is saying, Blind taqleed is kufr in Nehj ul Balagha?.

Yes because it helps follow furuh-e-deen.

Blind faith is wrong - this is applicable to not just taqleed but every aspect of imaan.

3 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

I am going away from Taqleed because of everyday issues and discrepancies about our Iran and Iraq Scholars. And durood being changed unfortunately to Salle ala mohammad noor e khomeni amad.

Follow one Marja. Leave the discrepancies to be as it has no impact on you. There can be Doctors who disagree on the cure of a patient. That doesn't mean you stop following the orders of all doctors!!!

3 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

And because of celebrating eid among our scholars on different days

If some marja said celebrate Eid and others said don't celebrate Eid at all, then you might have a point. What's the big deal if they have different rulings on moonsighting?

3 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

 because of fatwa AGAINST 'matam e 3rd Qibla'. Beating yourself.

What is that?

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Islam is NOT an incomplete piece of research on which different scholors (doctors) should differ. This is a false comparision. I am ordered to ask the ones who have more knowledge than me , not to follow them. Its responsibilty of an alim to guide as per Quran and hadith. Not according to his own interpretations. When our alims are wrong we  disagree with them. We donot follow blindly what they say.

Tell us hadith and rulings of masoomeen and thats their responsibility. And thats why he is respected. Concept of Ph.d in all aspects isnt proved from hadith. Islam is religion for everyone not only for Mujtahids or Alims. Gods religion is man friendly and everyone can understand if he or she wants to. (Exclude bhugz).

Moreover translations are avaliable so language isn't a big barrier. Language doesnt describe your skill or mentality.

We live in era of Muhammad Al Mahdi A.S. brothers question when imam went into occultation what system he gave to us? Question is false. We believe in system of imamate proven from quran and no other system would ever succeed imamate till qayamat. Instead they should ask (which they cannot) which person imam left in charge before major occultation? There is no successor of Imam al Mahdi A.S. The interpretations from Our Imams and Book of Allah Quran is hujjat on us. This is what i think. Its my opinion. I should follow siraat e mustaqeem and 6th Imam Jaffer e Sadiq A.S says in tafseer noor us saqalain , By God, we are siraat e mustaqeem. Seeking knowledge (at least basics) is mandatory. 

 

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@ShiaMan14 

So ten marja = ten different days of eid...

Where are muslims going to?? No unity? Shia splitting, sub branches coming out? 

Against Matam beating yourself for 3rd Moula(asws) fatwas are coming like better to donate blood than to do matam, what is this? Who are these people to give fatwa against Matam?

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Once upon a time muslims were one. Time passed, got dividied, shia sunni became.

Now sunnis have sub categories and shias are having too.

Unfortunate but a truth.

So two mujjtahid living in two attached countries, one is saying eid is tomorrow other says day after tomorrow, what is this?

It is a concern for us why to leave it aside brother? It is a big deal, why are two disputing?.

In UAE, a shia wakes up on eid day in morning, goes to mosque, an annoucement he hears, those in Mr. Sistani's taqleed pray eid namaz today for Mr. Khoei's taqleed, eid is tomorrow, an example this is but it really happened.

Edited by Asghar Ali Karbalai

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27 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Once upon a time muslims were one. Time passed, got dividied, shia sunni became.

Now sunnis have sub categories and shias are having too.

Unfortunate but a truth.

So two mujjtahid living in two attached countries, one is saying eid is tomorrow other says day after tomorrow, what is this?

It is a concern for us why to leave it aside brother? It is a big deal, why are two disputing?.

In UAE, a shia wakes up on eid day in morning, goes to mosque, an annoucement he hears, those in Mr. Sistani's taqleed pray eid namaz today for Mr. Khoei's taqleed, eid is tomorrow, an example this is but it really happened.

WS Brother this is a very erroneous and fallacious way of thinking and argumentation. I forgot its name but I'm pretty sure there is a specific fallacy that your argument is greatly guilty of here. Brother, question why there are these differences? I ask you, why do you think there are these MINOR differences of opinion between the maraje?

Also, I private messaged you a bunch of stuff regarding this topic some time back, not sure if read my message properly.

Edited by AStruggler

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11 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Q. Are you in Taqleed?.

Q. If yes, then why?.

Yes. 

Because I know full well that I do not have the knowledge or skills needed to correctly and confidently interpret the messages of the Quran and Sunnah and derive Islamic law. Lol at the moment I cannot even understand Arabic, the language of the holy book this whole religion revolves around. 

Edited by AStruggler

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13 minutes ago, AStruggler said:

WS Brother this is a very erroneous and fallacious way of thinking and argumentation. I forgot its name but I'm pretty sure there is a specific fallacy that your argument is greatly guilty of here. Brother, question why there are these differences? I ask you, why do you think there are these MINOR differences of opinion between the maraje?

Also, I private messaged you a bunch of stuff regarding this topic some time back, not sure if read my message properly.

السَّلآمُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَةُ الله وبَرَكآتُه 

Welcome my respected caring brother

I didn't understand, you said these are minor differences?. Discrepancy on eid day, discrepancy in salawat, discrepancy in matam

I did not read your link that you pm'd me. So I made a topic on it.

Imagine brother, you following somebody who makes error himself? Just imagine.

I am discussing all this with you and brothers like you, not arguing to win here wallah, I am learning by talking with all of you here.

Edited by Asghar Ali Karbalai

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40 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Discrepancy on eid day, discrepancy in salawat, discrepancy in matam

What is the descrepency in salawat? As a muqallid of a maraja, I have never heard of this discrepancy lol. The eid issue isn't even that common and only happened a few times I think. And brother, I believe a lot of the times it isn't even the marjas to blame, I remember hearing that some people were doing a different eid based on what they felt and their own false ideas or whatever, not because of following the maraje but because of going against the rulings of the maraje. Also, what is this discrepancy in matam you're referring to? 

40 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Imagine brother, you following somebody who makes error himself? Just imagine.

Who told you they are making errors? Do you have any evidence for this? Yes, if there are two contradicting theories on a particular issue then one will be true and one will be false. However, this does not occur at any problematic degree. Regardless, how can a layman who opposes this concept feel he'll be better off than and make less errors than these learned scholars we have today?

40 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

I did not read your link that you pm'd me.

I really encourage you to read them.

Edited by AStruggler

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1 hour ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

@ShiaMan14 

So ten marja = ten different days of eid...

10 days of Eid... 10 days if celebrations. What's the problem. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.

1 hour ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

@ShiaMan14 Where are muslims going to?? No unity? Shia splitting, sub branches coming out? 

Our unity is based on the same usul-e-deen. Differences in some Fiqh rulings are not a big deal.

1 hour ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

@ShiaMan14 

Against Matam beating yourself for 3rd Moula(asws) fatwas are coming like better to donate blood than to do matam, what is this? Who are these people to give fatwa against Matam?

People are free to follow their marja. Let's say you follow Marja A. Then Marja B says don't do matam. You are saying you will stop following Marja A because you disagree with Marja B???

Sorry brother, that is the dumbest thing I have heard on ShiaChat...today.

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Fiqh rulings cannot be different too. Islam is one why fiqh is differing then? Qiyas is being done then surely. 

Brother you can be content with 10 days of EID, I cannot.

About Marja A and B, I get your point, جَزَاكَ اللّهُ خيراً كثيراً. We cannot blame Marja B for Marja A.

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27 minutes ago, AStruggler said:

What is the descrepency in salawat? As a muqallid of a maraja, I have never heard of this discrepancy lol. The eid issue isn't even that common and only happened a few times I think. And brother, I believe a lot of the times it isn't even the marjas to blame, I remember hearing that some people were doing a different eid based on what the felt and their own theories or whatever, not because of following the maraje but because of going against the rulings of the maraje. Also, what is this discrepancy in matam you're referring to? 

Who told you they are making errors? Do you have any evidence for this? Yes, if there are two contradicting theories on a particular issue then one will be true and one will be false. However, this does not occur at any problematic degree. Regardless, how can a layman who opposes this concept feel he'll be better off than and make less errors than these scholars we have today?

I really encourage you to read them.

I have that video on my whatsapp, will try to post it here later, Wallah, these people are saying, Salle ala Mohammad noor e khomeni amad.

We need Murshids, Guide, proper ones, not those who dispute.

Aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww) never had disputes in them whether in osool e din or furooh e din so why their followers and that too big name scholars have dispute among them?.

Edited by Asghar Ali Karbalai

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This should cover most of the issues for people on insight and intellect. 

*****

Quote

Taqlid

Following a Mujtahid

1. It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith on the basis of proof and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept he word of another with regard to the fundamentals without demanding proof. However, in order to act on Islamic code (except in those matters which are considered by all to be indisputable e.g. the obligatory nature of the five daily prayers, fasting during the holy month of Ramadan etc.) a person must adopt one of the following methods:

    i) The man concerned should be a Mujtahid (jurist)1 himself and should know the Articles of Acts on the basis of Ijtihad2 and reason (i.e. he should be a man of such high learning and scholarship that he can solve problems from his study of the Qur’an and Hadith).

    ii) If he is not a jurist himself, he should follow a jurist i.e. he should act according to the judgment (fatwa) of the jurist without demanding proof.

    iii) If he is neither a jurist nor a follower (muqallid) he should act after taking such precaution that he should become sure of his having performed his religious duty. For example, if some jurists consider an act to be unlawful and some others say that it is not unlawful, he should not perform that act and in case some jurists consider an act to be obligatory (wajib) and others consider it to be recommended (mustahab) he should perform it. Hence it is obligatory for those persons who are not jurists and cannot also take precautionary measures (ihtiyat) to follow a jurist.3

2. Following (taqlid) means acting according to the judgment of a jurist. It is necessary that the jurist who is followed is male, Shi’ah Ithna ‘Asha’ari,4 adult, sane, legitimate, alive and just (‘adil). A person is said to be just when he performs all those acts which are obligatory for him and refrains from all those things which are prohibited for him. And the sign of a man’s being just is that he is apparently a good man so that if enquiries are made about him from the people of his locality or from his neighbours or from those persons with whom he associates, they should confirm his goodness. And if it is known that the judgments of the jurists differ with regard to the problems which we face in everyday life, it is necessary that the jurist who is followed should be a’lam (the most learned jurist) who possesses better capacity to understand religious matters as compared with his contemporary jurists.

3. There are three ways of identifying a jurist or the most learned jurist:

i) When a person personally believes that such and such person is a jurist or the most learned jurist. For confirming this he should be a learned person himself and should possess the capacity to identify a jurist or the most learned jurist.

ii) When two persons, who are learned and just and possess the capacity to identify a jurist or the most learned jurist, should certify to a person’s being a jurist or the most learned jurist, provided that two other learned and just persons do not contradict them. And apparently the fact of a person’s being a jurist or the most learned jurist is also proved by the statement of only one person who is reliable.

iii) When many learned persons who possess the capacity to identify a jurist or the most learned jurist should certify to a person’s being jurist or the most learned jurist and when one is satisfied by their statement.

4. If it is not possible to identify the most learned jurist on account of some difference of opinions among the jurists, a person should take precautionary measures and if it is not possible to do so, he should follow that jurist whom he himself considers to be the most learned jurist. In fact even if there is a weak possibility of a person being the most learned jurist and one knows that as compared with him there is no other most learned jurist, one should follow that jurist.

5. There are four ways of obtaining the judgment of a jurist:

i) When a man hears the judgment direct from the jurist himself.

ii) When the judgment of the jurist is quoted by two just persons.

iii) When a man hears the judgment of a jurist from a person whose statement satisfies him.

iv) By reading the judgment of a jurist in a book written by him on various problems (masa’il) provided the reader is satisfied about the authenticity of the book.

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/taqlid

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45 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

All Marjas are not wrong but all are not correct either.

Unfortunately, you are not in a position make this claim.

Even the Marja( Jurist)  do not call other Marja (Jurist) is incorrect.

This non Shia way of branding one and hilighting other is not our way. That's what they have many schools of fiqh.

They ( Marja) all make use of the their best judgement in formulating a decision on a topic. Best you can do is to follow the one you think is the most learned. 

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2 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

I saw the video this local Pakistani Scholar favoring Mr. Khamenei.

So this Local Pakistan Scholar gets out of car and people start saying this.

That's insane. I would like to watch that video. 

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55 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Fiqh rulings cannot be different too. Islam is one why fiqh is differing then? Qiyas is being done then surely. 

Only a Masoom(infallible)  can give you what Allah(awj)  law is.

A fallible can use all resources and can make a best decision. What he thinks, based on his study/knowledge/insight/intellect the law might be ( Allah(awj) knows best. ). 

95%+ of all Islamic Laws books of the Jurist( Marja-e-taqleed) are the same, appox . 5% difference in Fiqh( Jurisprudence) in minor issues is nothing , its normal. ( based on best efforts) .

Or 

You can spend your life and learn the constitution,  and become the constitutional lawyer - I think - when you weigh the positives and negative you will reach clarity. 

 

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3 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

I saw the video this local Pakistani Scholar favoring Mr. Khamenei.

So this Local Pakistan Scholar gets out of car and people start saying this.

That’s awful durood should only be for Muhammed and ahl Muhammed(saaws).  And anyway sayeds get those blessings too becuase of durood. So why change it? Sayyid Khamenei is a sayed he’ll get those blessings anyway 

it’s awful and nobody should do that. Durood is for Sayeda as well like our 6th Imam said he did during prayers 

this is wolf in sheeps clothing 

Edited by Ralvi

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@Asghar Ali Karbalai Your arguments don't make sense to me. What difference in fiqh rulings are you talking about? A lot of the rulings are literally the same if you talk about taharah, salah, fasting etc. There may be minor differences for example the exact dimensions of kurr water etc.

You're calling for a system of ignorance. Our Imams (as) have left their teachings for us and it is upon our scholars to try their best and to study those. We ignorant people can't expect to form our own opinions when we don't even know a thing about Islam apart from a few books. Sorry to say, but this is nothing but ignorance. Our Imams (as) have warned us in giving a fatwa without knowledge, because we are not in a position to do so. 

Our Imams (as) trained their students, created a school of jurisprudence because they wanted a knowledge revolution in Arabia. Our Imams (as) wanted to create a system where scholars are given the platform to acquire various sciences and to progress intellectually.  I don't know why you're against the system. 

Allah will not punish scholars for trying their best to follow the traditions that they thought were correct based on their reasoning. You know that for one ruling there is a proof given by our scholars. These books which mention the reasoning behind islamic laws are many volumes and are in Arabic. My point is that don't think that they randomly give fatwas, they have their reasoning.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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15 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

It's when you imitate a scholar or follow their fatwas.

Oh I see, thank you. so there are people who act like this?

Well now that I think about it I guess yeah, I see it mostly from our Sunni brothers and sisters especially when it comes to refuting their figures and Imam Ali etc but that may also be cause I haven’t met many Shi’a in real life as there are not a lot in my area. But nobody is save from acting holier than though and Prophet incarnate and being bad in general 

i feel like these kind of people are the worst actually becuase they seem normal but they have really bad intentions huh don’t know how to express what Iam trying to say

They gaslight. And it’s like one who is ignorant yet acts learned and knowledgeable makes the learned and folllwers of truth seem like the ignorant and a mockery

we aren’t perfect we should just strive to be good people and I always want to learn more and more so my Jahil goes away in the most maximized and efficient way 

Edited by Ralvi

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33 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@Asghar Ali Karbalai Your arguments don't make sense to me. What difference in fiqh rulings are you talking about? A lot of the rulings are literally the same if you talk about taharah, salah, fasting etc. There may be minor differences for example the exact dimensions of kurr water etc.

You're calling for a system of ignorance. Our Imams (as) have left their teachings for us and it is upon our scholars to try their best and to study those. We ignorant people can't expect to form our own opinions when we don't even know a thing about Islam apart from a few books. Sorry to say, but this is nothing but ignorance. Our Imams (as) have warned us in giving a fatwa without knowledge, because we are not in a position to do so. 

Our Imams (as) trained their students, created a school of jurisprudence because they wanted a knowledge revolution in Arabia. Our Imams (as) wanted to create a system where scholars are given the platform to acquire various sciences and to progress intellectually.  I don't know why you're against the system. 

Allah will not punish scholars for trying their best to follow the traditions that they thought were correct based on their reasoning. You know that for one ruling there is a proof given by our scholars. These books which mention the reasoning behind islamic laws are many volumes and are in Arabic. My point is that don't think that they randomly give fatwas, they have their reasoning.

Yeah and scholars are held to a higher accountability right? Becuase they are highly blessed and privileged? 

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45 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

Btw forgive me...What’s taqleed? I’m not pretending to not be an idiot

Iam a major idiot 

:respect:

@Ralvi 

Bro please read the articles in the links below. Taqlid is very important.

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/what-taqleed-shaykh-saleem-bhimji

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/taqlid-meaning-and-reality-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi

https://www.al-islam.org/introduction-islamic-shariah-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/taqlid-following-expert

 

Edited by AStruggler

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12 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

Yeah and scholars are held to a higher accountability right? Becuase they are highly blessed and privileged? 

Yeah but they won't be punished if they simply tried their best based on their knowledge.

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Fundamental beliefs are called Usul al-deen, i.e. Roots of Religion. The Usul al-deen are five: Three are called Roots of Islam. They are:

(1) Tawhid, Belief in oneness of God;

(2) 'Adl, Justice of God and

(3) Nubuwwat, Belief in the Prophets;

(4) Imamat, the successorship of the Prophet.

(5) Qiyamat, 'Belief in the Day of Judgement.

There is no Taqlid of non Mas'oom(fallible ) allowed here.

***** 

details here , 

https://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-husayn-vahid-khorasani

 

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"It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith on the basis of proof and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept he word of another with regard to the fundamentals without demanding proof.

However, in order to act on Islamic code (except in those matters which are considered by all to be indisputable e.g. the obligatory nature of the five daily prayers, fasting during the holy month of Ramadan etc.) a person must adopt one of the following methods:

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/taqlid

like these matters, 

The Branches of Religion Furu’ al-Deen

 Salat (Prayer), Sawm (Fasting), Hajj (Pilgrimage), Zakat,  Khums , .........

We do Taqlid, follow the most learned (Jurist ) n above matters and others dealing with social, economic issues etc.....

Just like, people follow the constitutional lawyers for constitution issues

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6 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Fiqh rulings cannot be different too. Islam is one why fiqh is differing then? Qiyas is being done then surely. 

Did the Prophet (saw) or the Imams leave behind, "Everything you ever want to know about Fiqh rulings" book? If not, then the marajae have to derive Fiqh rulings based on thousands of references. It's called Ijtehad. Qiyas would be if they randomly came up with Fiqh rulings with no regard to the references. 

The irony is that your argument about leaving taqleed IS QIYAS.

6 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Brother you can be content with 10 days of EID, I cannot.

Why not? What's the big deal? you are focused on celebrating eid on a specific day... the focus should be on celebrating eid - that's it.

6 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

About Marja A and B, I get your point, جَزَاكَ اللّهُ خيراً كثيراً. We cannot blame Marja B for Marja A.

Okay then no need to leave taqleed.

 

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