Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

15 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Bro if only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has the attribute, but you say other people have the attribute which only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has, of course it is shirk.

So yes, saying the aimmah (as) are all-hearing, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, is shirk.  Its like me saying the Imams are eternal, is that shirk? Of course, because only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is eternal and the Imams are created slaves of Allah.

It is important for us to have evidence for all our beliefs, and not to just believe things because we grew up with such beliefs.

I don’t think he said those other things? Those only belong to Allah

what I think he means is the relationship of ahulbayt with Allah is higher than ours and therefore if God wills it so it is, if God wants them to be our teachers and those who deliver judgment of Allah upon us then they cannot be of the ignorant and unbeknownst to things like this. Therefore them being aware of our actions is completely plausible and necessary, because that’s proof for us humans that indeed Allah watches all. It’s a double check system for our benefit, and also another proofing tool to see who are momin, Muslims, hypocrites, unbelievers etc etc 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

I don’t think he said those other things? Those only belong to Allah

 

The brother clearly says that he does not believe that if people say the Prophet or Imams have attributes which only Allah has, it is Shirk. 

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:Bro if only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has the attribute, but you say other people have the attribute which only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has, of course it is shirk.

So yes, saying the aimmah (as) are all-hearing, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, is shirk.  Its like me saying the Imams are eternal, is that shirk? Of course, because only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is eternal and the Imams are created slaves of Allah.

It is important for us to have evidence for all our beliefs, and not to just believe things because we grew up with such beliefs.

I typed a long message but it disappeared as I am in Pakistan right now and have to use Hotspot shield for opening this website.

Ya Akhi

I was saying that brother looking at how much Allah loves Aaqa(saww) that he made this entire Universe in his(saww) love and in the love of Panjetan(asws) the fivers(asws), It does not fit in the mind that nauzubillah they can or will be fanah too.

Also you see about all knowing there is an incident of Moula Ali(asws) and ants in which he tells the person with him that I know which ant is female or male and etc and then he quotes the ayah of Surah Yaseen ayat number 12 about Imam al mubeen that everything is in Imam al mubeen (the knowledge) and he says that I am the Imam al mubeen. This ayah.

Indeed, it is We who bring the dead to life and record what they have put forth and what they left behind, and all things We have enumerated in a clear register.

So he knows everything too, he Moula Ali(asws) is a clear register.

Also saying that Aaqa(saww) is not all hearing is a wahabi type of concept, a sect in muslim believes that anybody who sends durood on Aaqa(saww), an angel collects all of duroods and on weekly basis he reports it to Aaqa(saww) which is not fitting the mind knowing he is madinatul ilm. And they also say that if you send durood in Masjid e Nabawi then only Aaqa(saww) can hear it immediately because he is there and nowhere else he can hear it immediately, no sense at all really.

And there is an ayah in surah e rehman 'Kullo man alaiha faan waa yabqa wajhu rabbika zuljalali wal ikraam' you see Moula Ali(asws) said that this 'wajhu' is me. So Moula ali(asws) cannot be faan either.

And if they are not all hearing then why are we supplicating to them?.

I don't remember exactly but this Jugular vein ayah also takes us to Aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww). So they are present all the time, hearing all the time, knowing all the time.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also you see dear brother, A scholar in Majlis described this in a beautiful way about being aalim and jahil.

He said everybody's ilm has a limit, for example a person who has studied till 12th Grade has knowledge till 12th Grade, after that with 13th grade knowledge he is a jahil, jahil is not a bad word, jahil is just being unaware of.

There are many things in which I am Jahil too.

Similarly a doctor has ilm of medical studies and is an absolute jahil in flying an aircraft, true?

So to make it brief, a man once asked the 4th Qibla(asws), are you an aalim? He replied in a beautiful way, he said, I am not a Jahil.

Does not this show us that Mohammad(saww) o Aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww) know each and every single thing?

Plus it is like this, Allah made this universe in lov of Mohammad(saww) o aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww), it is like a gift by Allah to them, so ofcourse they would know each and everything about Universe and beyond it?

Like when we gift somebody something, it is not ours right. It belongs to the other person. They are the maalik.

This is a discussion, I am a muslim alhamdulilah and a firm believer of Tawheed. Allah being one and supreme above all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we all need to agree on one thing first. And that is what is shirk? 

Associating someone to Allah in anyway is shirk for instance obeying someone other than Allah is Shirk. But it is not shirk if we obey Allah (s.w.t) and those who He has commanded us to obey, for instance Prophet (S), Ulil Amr (asws), Parents. 

So Prophet (S) is madinatul ilm and Ali (asws) is bab-e-madinatul ilm and also for him there is last verse of chapter 13 mentioning him as "wa man indahu ilmul kitab". They are not All-knowing but we cannot imagine or comprehend how much they know because of their attachment to the All-Knowing. 

Apart from that, there is another point which is important to note. Whom really we worship? Is it the "Ism" which we worship or is it the "Zaat" which we worship? And perhaps there resides the answer to all our problems and shirky allegations. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

I was saying that brother looking at how much Allah loves Aaqa(saww) that he made this entire Universe in his(saww) love and in the love of Panjetan(asws) the fivers(asws), It does not fit in the mind that nauzubillah they can or will be fanah too.

 Also you see about all knowing there is an incident of Moula Ali(asws) and ants in which he tells the person with him that I know which ant is female or male and etc and then he quotes the ayah of Surah Yaseen ayat number 12 about Imam al mubeen that everything is in Imam al mubeen (the knowledge) and he says that I am the Imam al mubeen. This ayah.

 Indeed, it is We who bring the dead to life and record what they have put forth and what they left behind, and all things We have enumerated in a clear register.

So he knows everything too, he Moula Ali(asws) is a clear register.

 

Bro, again, it is important that we take out beliefs from clear cut and authentic hadith. 

I will give you a hadith now, and you tell me if you still believe the Imams know everything:

 الكافي: عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن ابن ابي عمير، عن جعفر ابن عثمان، عن سماعة، عن ابي بصير، ووهيب بن حفص، عن ابي بصير، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: إن لله علمين: علم مكنون مخزون، لا يعلمه إلا هو، من ذلك يكون البداء وعلم علمه ملائكته ورسله وأنبياءه فنحن نعلمه

[5/363] al-Kafi: A number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa from Ibn Abi Umayr from Ja’far b. Uthman from Sama’a from Abi Basir (and Wuhayb b. Hafs from Abi Basir) from Abi Abdillah عليه السلام who said: Allah has two kinds of knowledge. A knowledge which is hidden and stored-up. No one knows it but Him. From that does Bada’ happen. And a knowledge which He taught His angels, messengers and prophets. So we too do know it.  (Translated by IslamicSalvation)

This clear and authentic hadith says ONLY Allah has knowledge of certain things and NO ONE else does. 

Also, read the works of classical scholars like Shaykh al-Mufid, where he clearly states that the position of the Imamiyya is that no the Prophets and Imams don't know absolutely everything.

 

Rejecting the Imams being all-hearing is not a Wahabi concept. The concept of the dead not being able to hear is the Wahabi concept you are referring to. Bring me one notable classical Shia scholar that has said the Imams are all-hearing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I think we all need to agree on one thing first. And that is what is shirk? 

Associating someone to Allah in anyway is shirk for instance obeying someone other than Allah is Shirk. But it is not shirk if we obey Allah (s.w.t) and those who He has commanded us to obey, for instance Prophet (S), Ulil Amr (asws), Parents. 

So Prophet (S) is madinatul ilm and Ali (asws) is bab-e-madinatul ilm and also for him there is last verse of chapter 13 mentioning him as "wa man indahu ilmul kitab". They are not All-knowing but we cannot imagine or comprehend how much they know because of their attachment to the All-Knowing. 

Apart from that, there is another point which is important to note. Whom really we worship? Is it the "Ism" which we worship or is it the "Zaat" which we worship? And perhaps there resides the answer to all our problems and shirky allegations. 

Allah made Aaqa(saww) from his own noor so did not everything transfer from Allah's noor to Aaqa's(saww) noor automatically?

Salsabeel, what could possibly be that only Allah knows and Aaqa(saww) doesn't? Salsabeel Aaqa and Allah are you know two lovers so you know what's for Allah is for his lover(saww).

Or do you think that thinking so deep will lead us to kufr unknowingly and it is none of our concern?

Edited by Asghar Ali Karbalai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Bro, again, it is important that we take out beliefs from clear cut and authentic hadith. 

I will give you a hadith now, and you tell me if you still believe the Imams know everything:

 الكافي: عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن ابن ابي عمير، عن جعفر ابن عثمان، عن سماعة، عن ابي بصير، ووهيب بن حفص، عن ابي بصير، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: إن لله علمين: علم مكنون مخزون، لا يعلمه إلا هو، من ذلك يكون البداء وعلم علمه ملائكته ورسله وأنبياءه فنحن نعلمه

[5/363] al-Kafi: A number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa from Ibn Abi Umayr from Ja’far b. Uthman from Sama’a from Abi Basir (and Wuhayb b. Hafs from Abi Basir) from Abi Abdillah عليه السلام who said: Allah has two kinds of knowledge. A knowledge which is hidden and stored-up. No one knows it but Him. From that does Bada’ happen. And a knowledge which He taught His angels, messengers and prophets. So we too do know it.  (Translated by IslamicSalvation)

This clear and authentic hadith says ONLY Allah has knowledge of certain things and NO ONE else does. 

Also, read the works of classical scholars like Shaykh al-Mufid, where he clearly states that the position of the Imamiyya is that no the Prophets and Imams don't know absolutely everything.

 

Rejecting the Imams being all-hearing is not a Wahabi concept. The concept of the dead not being able to hear is the Wahabi concept you are referring to. Bring me one notable classical Shia scholar that has said the Imams are all-hearing. 

Brother, I do not know about scholars mentioning it openly due to the fact that people will reject it and say it is kufr and due to it being a secret should be kept as a secret.

I don't believe blindly, I question and learn from 'Aql' and I wonder always what could be hidden from the 14 Infallibles and then I say to myself that this is not my concern because these are some very in depth things.

You know, Aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww) did not open up in front of many people, like Aaqa(saww) saying, had not I been afraid of my ummah being astrayed I would have mentioned such fazails of Moula Ali(asws) that nobody else would have heard of. They had to hide many things from us and even after hiding many things, Nusairis came into existence, Imagine if Aaqa(saww) had mentioned those fazails what could have happened?

Also Hazrat Meesam(asws) or another sahabi of Moula Ali(asws) or a masoom(asws) said that if I tell you some other fazails of Moula Ali(asws) then half of the world would get crazy and half would die hearing it.

A lot of secrets brother.

These things never came openly.

Having said that, I am just a learner like everyone else here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Bro, again, it is important that we take out beliefs from clear cut and authentic hadith. 

I will give you a hadith now, and you tell me if you still believe the Imams know everything:

 الكافي: عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن ابن ابي عمير، عن جعفر ابن عثمان، عن سماعة، عن ابي بصير، ووهيب بن حفص، عن ابي بصير، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: إن لله علمين: علم مكنون مخزون، لا يعلمه إلا هو، من ذلك يكون البداء وعلم علمه ملائكته ورسله وأنبياءه فنحن نعلمه

[5/363] al-Kafi: A number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa from Ibn Abi Umayr from Ja’far b. Uthman from Sama’a from Abi Basir (and Wuhayb b. Hafs from Abi Basir) from Abi Abdillah عليه السلام who said: Allah has two kinds of knowledge. A knowledge which is hidden and stored-up. No one knows it but Him. From that does Bada’ happen. And a knowledge which He taught His angels, messengers and prophets. So we too do know it.  (Translated by IslamicSalvation)

This clear and authentic hadith says ONLY Allah has knowledge of certain things and NO ONE else does. 

Also, read the works of classical scholars like Shaykh al-Mufid, where he clearly states that the position of the Imamiyya is that no the Prophets and Imams don't know absolutely everything.

 

Rejecting the Imams being all-hearing is not a Wahabi concept. The concept of the dead not being able to hear is the Wahabi concept you are referring to. Bring me one notable classical Shia scholar that has said the Imams are all-hearing. 

And yes I cannot reject this hadith because I don't know all this but I gave my points in. What do you think?

Allah gave us sense to think and learn, why always refer to hadith?

I am not saying this is fake but there are many true and many fake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Allah made Aaqa(saww) from his own noor so did not everything transfer from Allah's noor to Aaqa's(saww) noor automatically

Your and mine are limitations and those limitations are the words of Allah (s.w.t). The source of knowledge of Prophet (S) is His Rabb. How much is his (prophet's) knowledge, I don't know and cannot know but Allah (s.w.t) has mentioned that it is limited. The Only unlimited, absolute is Allah (s.w.t), Only He is All-knowing, created beings cannot get unlimited capacity or become absolute in anyway. That is what logic dictates. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Your and mine are limitations and those limitations are the words of Allah (s.w.t). The source of knowledge of Prophet (S) is His Rabb. How much is his (prophet's) knowledge, I don't know and cannot know but Allah (s.w.t) has mentioned that it is limited. The Only unlimited, absolute is Allah (s.w.t), Only He is All-knowing, created beings cannot get unlimited capacity or become absolute in anyway. That is what logic dictates. 

But this is contradicting below hadith.

Aaqa(saww) said

Nobody knows/recognized Allah excep me and Ali

Nobody knows/recognized me except Allah and Ali

Nobody knows/recognized Ali except me and Allah

So if Aaqa(saww) and Moula Ali(asws) are limited then how did they recognize or know an unlimited entity?

Is not it common sense, you would send someone who knows you already to describe who you are right? Or you would send someone who knows a little about you?

Kindly assist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

But this is contradicting below hadith.

Aaqa(saww) said

Nobody knows/recognized Allah excep me and Ali

Nobody knows/recognized me except Allah and Ali

Nobody knows/recognized Ali except me and Allah

So if Aaqa(saww) and Moula Ali(asws) are limited then how did they recognize or know an unlimited entity?

Is not it common sense, you would send someone who knows you already to describe who you are right? Or you would send someone who knows a little about you?

Kindly assist.

They can only know what Allah (s.w.t) allows them to know.

Wala yohetoona beshayin min ilmehe "illa bemashaa". 

Prophet (S) although being at the state of "fa kana qaba qowsayne aw adna" but there still present a gap, a veil. Perhaps these blessed personalities becomes veil for each other at a point.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Salsabeel said:

They can only know what Allah (s.w.t) allows them to know.

Wala yohetoona beshayin min ilmehe "illa bemashaa". 

Prophet (S) although being at the state of "fa kana qaba qowsayne aw adna" but there still present a gap, a veil. Perhaps these blessed personalities becomes veil for each other at a point.  

جَزَاكَ اللّهُ خيراً كثيراً 

You explained it very easily from Ayat ul Kursi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...