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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Assalam o alaikum

Respected brothers and sisters

Hope you are fine in shaALLAH.

My question, I am keeping it very simple.

What is 'Shirk'?

1. Saying someone else is also Allah.

2. Saying what Allah has (an example he sees everything) nobody else can have.

I say 1 is shirk, Do you say both points are shirk, if 'yes' then why if 'no' then why?

I say 1 is shirk because Allah is ahad.

I say 2 is not shirk because Allah hears everything so does Aaqa(saww) hears everything. Aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww) hears everything. An example.

A request kindly do not start debating here. Those who believe that Aaqa(saww) or Aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww) cannot hear everything all the time, kindly do not mind but do not participate in this forum because this will go into a long debate and the real message will get lost.

Let us just learn without debating and contradicting.

For my shi'i and sunni brothers.

@notme

@ali_fatheroforphans

@Salsabeel @3wliya_maryam @Ruqaya101 @realizm @Khadim uz Zahra @Qa'im @Ashvazdanghe @Hameedeh @ShiaMan14 @shia farm girl @Sirius_Bright @starlight @Laayla @Lion of Shia @Abu Nur @Islandsandmirrors @Husayni @Gaius I. Caesar @Murtaza1 @AmirAlmuminin Lover @starlight @SIAR14

Edited by Asghar Ali Karbalai

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Salaam Alaykum brother

Shirk word means puting something along with something else.

There are two types of Shirks: 1. Obvious Shirk       2. Hidden Shirk

Obvious Shirk means someone believes there is another God or there are two, 3, etc. Gods. Muslims usually don't believe in this type of Shirk.

The second type of Shirk is Hidden Shirk. Some Muslims even some Mumins usually commit this Shirk. I don't know much about this, but I guess trusting something more than Allah is hidden Shirk. The person believes that Allah is almighty, but in life ups and downs trusts something else more. For example, trusting bank account, job, or an influential friend in getting a job, people attention in self respect, people encourage and respect in reputation, etc. One outcome of trusting other things rather than Allah is hopelessness. A real Mumin attempts to solves his life difficulties and uses all possible resources without committing sin, but he is happy with the outcome because he knows that its Allahs Taghdir. A Muslim with lower level of Iman becomes upset if his friend doesn't recommend him for the job position. He may also end his relationship with his friend. Make it short, try your best without doing sin, be happy with result and do Tavakkul to Allah. This way, a Mumin will be away from hidden Shirk.

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As-salaam alaikum,

the brother above has posted a very good response. I only want to add that hidden shirk is very...hidden, lol, and comes in ways that we would never recognize it as being shirk. One of those ways is when we think we know better for us than Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and go against His directions and guidelines for our lives. In other words, we make our own ideas of whatvwe think and do on par with or even above His, which is a form of hidden shirk. I know there are more examples of hidden shirk, if i remember them, i will come back to this thread to contribute more, in sha Allah.

W/s

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There is another point i.e., shirk in obedience which too is a form of hidden shirk. 

 Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (a.s.) said: “It is attributing partners in obedience and not in worship. A man obeys Satan without knowing that; so he becomes a mushrik (polytheist).”

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18 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

There is another point i.e., shirk in obedience which too is a form of hidden shirk. 

 Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (a.s.) said: “It is attributing partners in obedience and not in worship. A man obeys Satan without knowing that; so he becomes a mushrik (polytheist).”

reference pl

 

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4 hours ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

Salaam Alaykum brother

Shirk word means puting something along with something else.

There are two types of Shirks: 1. Obvious Shirk       2. Hidden Shirk

Obvious Shirk means someone believes there is another God or there are two, 3, etc. Gods. Muslims usually don't believe in this type of Shirk.

The second type of Shirk is Hidden Shirk. Some Muslims even some Mumins usually commit this Shirk. I don't know much about this, but I guess trusting something more than Allah is hidden Shirk. The person believes that Allah is almighty, but in life ups and downs trusts something else more. For example, trusting bank account, job, or an influential friend in getting a job, people attention in self respect, people encourage and respect in reputation, etc. One outcome of trusting other things rather than Allah is hopelessness. A real Mumin attempts to solves his life difficulties and uses all possible resources without committing sin, but he is happy with the outcome because he knows that its Allahs Taghdir. A Muslim with lower level of Iman becomes upset if his friend doesn't recommend him for the job position. He may also end his relationship with his friend. Make it short, try your best without doing sin, be happy with result and do Tavakkul to Allah. This way, a Mumin will be away from hidden Shirk.

Yeah I see what you mean by hidden shirk, it’s probably worse than open shirk 

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3 hours ago, shia farm girl said:

As-salaam alaikum,

the brother above has posted a very good response. I only want to add that hidden shirk is very...hidden, lol, and comes in ways that we would never recognize it as being shirk. One of those ways is when we think we know better for us than Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and go against His directions and guidelines for our lives. In other words, we make our own ideas of whatvwe think and do on par with or even above His, which is a form of hidden shirk. I know there are more examples of hidden shirk, if i remember them, i will come back to this thread to contribute more, in sha Allah.

W/s

Yeah this is very subconscious thinking and is fundamental defect. Hopefully none of us do this and if we by accident 

Astaghfirullah Rabiwa Atooboillay

i would imagine the younger western children could possible go through this and that’s due to improper parenting, lack of engagement etc etc 

its quite scary, God save me from being like Iblis!!

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Concerning “And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating (with Him),” (12:106) Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (a.s.) said: “It implies attributing partners in obedience, and not in worship. The sins that people commit are of this category; in this case they obey Satan and make him a partner with Allah in obedience.”

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@shia farm girl

Believing in Allah but not following him falls under disobedience caregory, isn't it?

How is it a Shirk dear? Kindly speak a little more to make me understand, sorry. Do you mean we obey somebody else or we obey shaytan as said by @Salsabeel and not Allah so it is a shirk? Shirk in obedience, is that what you mean?.

@AmirAlmuminin Lover

So brother, for example, Mohammad(saww) o Aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww) are a waseela to Allah as we all believe in it firmly. I do not know Allah and I can never know Allah either due to his supremacy surpassing everything, me being just a particle of dust or maybe lesser than that even.

So I am trying to get the maarfa of them(asws) and keeping my concerns to them(asws) only as they(asws) know Allah better than me, I put my matters to them(asws) and I request them(asws) to help me by they(asws) helping me themselves(asws) which obviously includes Allah.

I don't know how to explain it I am trying to put it in words as simple as possible.

You said trusting somebody else other than Allah is a shirk.

I don't know Allah but I know some of Mohammad(saww) o Aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww) so I am trusting them(asws) more so it this a shirk?

Like for example, I never met the CEO of the Company I work for but I am aware of 'Board of Directors' of the Company so I take my concerns to them and they help me because they know the CEO better than me because they meet CEO everyday for meetings and they know how CEO works. On the other hand they always speak about CEO being so nice. You get my point.

Here CEO being Allah and board of directors being Aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww).

@Salsabeel @Ashvazdanghe @skyweb1987

Kindly assist too please.

Is this something wrong?

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@Asghar Ali Karbalai salaam brother, im about to sign off for the night, but before i go, i wanted to leave this lecture here. If you start at 21:25, he speaks about what you have requested, but much more eloquently than i could ever put it. In sha Allah it is of some benefit. The title of it is:

"Spiritual Impurity and Concealed Shirk".

W/s

Edited by shia farm girl

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52 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

@shia farm girl

Believing in Allah but not following him falls under disobedience caregory, isn't it?

How is it a Shirk dear? Kindly speak a little more to make me understand, sorry. Do you mean we obey somebody else or we obey shaytan as said by @Salsabeel and not Allah so it is a shirk? Shirk in obedience, is that what you mean?.

@AmirAlmuminin Lover

So brother, for example, Mohammad(saww) o Aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww) are a waseela to Allah as we all believe in it firmly. I do not know Allah and I can never know Allah either due to his supremacy surpassing everything, me being just a particle of dust or maybe lesser than that even.

So I am trying to get the maarfa of them(asws) and keeping my concerns to them(asws) only as they(asws) know Allah better than me, I put my matters to them(asws) and I request them(asws) to help me by they(asws) helping me themselves(asws) which obviously includes Allah.

I don't know how to explain it I am trying to put it in words as simple as possible.

You said trusting somebody else other than Allah is a shirk.

I don't know Allah but I know some of Mohammad(saww) o Aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww) so I am trusting them(asws) more so it this a shirk?

Like for example, I never met the CEO of the Company I work for but I am aware of 'Board of Directors' of the Company so I take my concerns to them and they help me because they know the CEO better than me because they meet CEO everyday for meetings and they know how CEO works. On the other hand they always speak about CEO being so nice. You get my point.

Here CEO being Allah and board of directors being Aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww).

@Salsabeel @Ashvazdanghe @skyweb1987

Kindly assist too please.

Is this something wrong?

I 100% agree with you brother. I mean think about it, there was a time where all 4 imams along with the Propeht were alive, and despite that only 72 were chosen to standby and protect Imam Hussein. Was everybody just spiritually devoid or didn’t follow religion? Of course not, there were many Muslims and Shias- but only a select few where there to fully support Imam Hussein. Who were actual believers and ready to defend Islam and ironically some whom moments before their martyrdom were not even Muslim, what made them so different? Brother the key has and always will be submission to Allah and complete handing of ones life for the sake of ahulbayt, with trust, devotion and heart. 

Our story is not to spread the message of Islam that Job is for the rasool and the imams, all we can do is love them unconditionally to the point of intoxication(Qalandar of which no one is the biggest Qalandar like Imam Hussein (as)), to unapologetically call out evil sort who attack the holy family and disassociating with them and standing for justice, giving ones life for that , to being like Salman e Farsi and Meesam e Thamaar etc Above their intellect was their absolute love and unquestioning obedience to Ahulbayt. Obedience to ahulbayt IS obedience to Allah

so it’s no mystery why Imam Mehdi hasn’t come

Edited by Ralvi

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11 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

 

What is 'Shirk'?

1. Saying someone else is also Allah.

 2. Saying what Allah has (an example he sees everything) nobody else can have.

 I say 1 is shirk, Do you say both points are shirk, if 'yes' then why if 'no' then why?

 I say 1 is shirk because Allah is ahad.

I say 2 is not shirk because Allah hears everything so does Aaqa(saww) hears everything. Aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww) hears everything. An example.

Bro if only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has the attribute, but you say other people have the attribute which only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has, of course it is shirk.

So yes, saying the aimmah (as) are all-hearing, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, is shirk.  Its like me saying the Imams are eternal, is that shirk? Of course, because only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is eternal and the Imams are created slaves of Allah.

It is important for us to have evidence for all our beliefs, and not to just believe things because we grew up with such beliefs.

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15 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Bro if only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has the attribute, but you say other people have the attribute which only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has, of course it is shirk.

So yes, saying the aimmah (as) are all-hearing, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, is shirk.  Its like me saying the Imams are eternal, is that shirk? Of course, because only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is eternal and the Imams are created slaves of Allah.

It is important for us to have evidence for all our beliefs, and not to just believe things because we grew up with such beliefs.

I don’t think he said those other things? Those only belong to Allah

what I think he means is the relationship of ahulbayt with Allah is higher than ours and therefore if God wills it so it is, if God wants them to be our teachers and those who deliver judgment of Allah upon us then they cannot be of the ignorant and unbeknownst to things like this. Therefore them being aware of our actions is completely plausible and necessary, because that’s proof for us humans that indeed Allah watches all. It’s a double check system for our benefit, and also another proofing tool to see who are momin, Muslims, hypocrites, unbelievers etc etc 

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6 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

I don’t think he said those other things? Those only belong to Allah

 

The brother clearly says that he does not believe that if people say the Prophet or Imams have attributes which only Allah has, it is Shirk. 

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt

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17 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:Bro if only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has the attribute, but you say other people have the attribute which only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has, of course it is shirk.

So yes, saying the aimmah (as) are all-hearing, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, is shirk.  Its like me saying the Imams are eternal, is that shirk? Of course, because only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is eternal and the Imams are created slaves of Allah.

It is important for us to have evidence for all our beliefs, and not to just believe things because we grew up with such beliefs.

I typed a long message but it disappeared as I am in Pakistan right now and have to use Hotspot shield for opening this website.

Ya Akhi

I was saying that brother looking at how much Allah loves Aaqa(saww) that he made this entire Universe in his(saww) love and in the love of Panjetan(asws) the fivers(asws), It does not fit in the mind that nauzubillah they can or will be fanah too.

Also you see about all knowing there is an incident of Moula Ali(asws) and ants in which he tells the person with him that I know which ant is female or male and etc and then he quotes the ayah of Surah Yaseen ayat number 12 about Imam al mubeen that everything is in Imam al mubeen (the knowledge) and he says that I am the Imam al mubeen. This ayah.

Indeed, it is We who bring the dead to life and record what they have put forth and what they left behind, and all things We have enumerated in a clear register.

So he knows everything too, he Moula Ali(asws) is a clear register.

Also saying that Aaqa(saww) is not all hearing is a wahabi type of concept, a sect in muslim believes that anybody who sends durood on Aaqa(saww), an angel collects all of duroods and on weekly basis he reports it to Aaqa(saww) which is not fitting the mind knowing he is madinatul ilm. And they also say that if you send durood in Masjid e Nabawi then only Aaqa(saww) can hear it immediately because he is there and nowhere else he can hear it immediately, no sense at all really.

And there is an ayah in surah e rehman 'Kullo man alaiha faan waa yabqa wajhu rabbika zuljalali wal ikraam' you see Moula Ali(asws) said that this 'wajhu' is me. So Moula ali(asws) cannot be faan either.

And if they are not all hearing then why are we supplicating to them?.

I don't remember exactly but this Jugular vein ayah also takes us to Aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww). So they are present all the time, hearing all the time, knowing all the time.

 

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Also you see dear brother, A scholar in Majlis described this in a beautiful way about being aalim and jahil.

He said everybody's ilm has a limit, for example a person who has studied till 12th Grade has knowledge till 12th Grade, after that with 13th grade knowledge he is a jahil, jahil is not a bad word, jahil is just being unaware of.

There are many things in which I am Jahil too.

Similarly a doctor has ilm of medical studies and is an absolute jahil in flying an aircraft, true?

So to make it brief, a man once asked the 4th Qibla(asws), are you an aalim? He replied in a beautiful way, he said, I am not a Jahil.

Does not this show us that Mohammad(saww) o Aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww) know each and every single thing?

Plus it is like this, Allah made this universe in lov of Mohammad(saww) o aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww), it is like a gift by Allah to them, so ofcourse they would know each and everything about Universe and beyond it?

Like when we gift somebody something, it is not ours right. It belongs to the other person. They are the maalik.

This is a discussion, I am a muslim alhamdulilah and a firm believer of Tawheed. Allah being one and supreme above all.

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I think we all need to agree on one thing first. And that is what is shirk? 

Associating someone to Allah in anyway is shirk for instance obeying someone other than Allah is Shirk. But it is not shirk if we obey Allah (s.w.t) and those who He has commanded us to obey, for instance Prophet (S), Ulil Amr (asws), Parents. 

So Prophet (S) is madinatul ilm and Ali (asws) is bab-e-madinatul ilm and also for him there is last verse of chapter 13 mentioning him as "wa man indahu ilmul kitab". They are not All-knowing but we cannot imagine or comprehend how much they know because of their attachment to the All-Knowing. 

Apart from that, there is another point which is important to note. Whom really we worship? Is it the "Ism" which we worship or is it the "Zaat" which we worship? And perhaps there resides the answer to all our problems and shirky allegations. 

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