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Musa (as) story and infallibility

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Salam everyone,

The story of Musa (as) and him killing an Egyptian is mentioned in Surah al-Qasas, verses 15-16:

"And he entered the city at a time of inattention by its people and found therein two men fighting: one from his faction and one from among his enemy. And the one from his faction called for help to him against the one from his enemy, so Moses struck him and [unintentionally] killed him. [Moses] said, "This is from the work of Satan. Indeed, he is a manifest, misleading enemy. He said, "My Lord, indeed I have wronged myself, so forgive me," and He forgave him. Indeed, He is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

I would like to see how us Shias can justify our general view of infallibility (no major or minor sins and no mistakes) from this verse. 

So first, Musa (as) killed somebody. Murder is a major sin. Some may point out that this was unintentional and he did not mean to kill the Egyptian. Although, then we would have to at least admit it was a mistake and that dismisses complete infallibility. Some other people may say that Musa (as) deliberately killed the Egyptian and the Egyptian was an oppressor, so killing him is not a problem. This doesn't make sense though as Musa (as) says that he wronged himself and he does istighfar. 

Another issue is Musa (as) doing istighfar if he didn't commit a sin. Why did he say faghfirli فَاغۡفِرۡ لِىۡ (forgive me)? Some might argue that the correct translation for فَاغۡفِرۡ لِىۡ is actually "cover me". But that doesn't make sense since the end of the verse reads "He is the Forgiving, the Merciful", which is context for فَاغۡفِرۡ لِىۡ meaning forgive me. Some may say that he is doing istighfar for tark al-Awla but I read somewhere that some scholars do not believe in tark al-Awla. So how do we justify this (besides tark al-Awla)?

 Also, Musa (as)'s statement "This is from the work of Satan" is also problematic. As some can explain the mistake of the Prophet (saw) praying 4 rak'at instead of 2 being from Allah. However, Musa (as) clearly here says this was from Satan. Some may argue that when Musa (as) said "This is from the work of Satan", he was referring to the quarrel between the Egyptian and the slave before, but I find that hard to believe. 

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt

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1 hour ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Salam everyone,

The story of Musa (as) and him killing an Egyptian is mentioned in Surah al-Qasas, verses 15-16:

"And he entered the city at a time of inattention by its people and found therein two men fighting: one from his faction and one from among his enemy. And the one from his faction called for help to him against the one from his enemy, so Moses struck him and [unintentionally] killed him. [Moses] said, "This is from the work of Satan. Indeed, he is a manifest, misleading enemy. He said, "My Lord, indeed I have wronged myself, so forgive me," and He forgave him. Indeed, He is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

I would like to see how us Shias can justify our general view of infallibility (no major or minor sins and no mistakes) from this verse. 

So first, Musa (as) killed somebody. Murder is a major sin. Some may point out that this was unintentional and he did not mean to kill the Egyptian. Although, then we would have to at least admit it was a mistake and that dismisses complete infallibility. Some other people may say that Musa (as) deliberately killed the Egyptian and the Egyptian was an oppressor, so killing him is not a problem. This doesn't make sense though as Musa (as) says that he wronged himself and he does istighfar. 

Another issue is Musa (as) doing istighfar if he didn't commit a sin. Why did he say faghfirli فَاغۡفِرۡ لِىۡ (forgive me)? Some might argue that the correct translation for فَاغۡفِرۡ لِىۡ is actually "cover me". But that doesn't make sense since the end of the verse reads "He is the Forgiving, the Merciful", which is context for فَاغۡفِرۡ لِىۡ meaning forgive me. Some may say that he is doing istighfar for tark al-Awla but I read somewhere that some scholars do not believe in tark al-Awla. So how do we justify this (besides tark al-Awla)?

 Also, Musa (as)'s statement "This is from the work of Satan" is also problematic. As some can explain the mistake of the Prophet (saw) praying 4 rak'at instead of 2 being from Allah. However, Musa (as) clearly here says this was from Satan. Some may argue that when Musa (as) said "This is from the work of Satan", he was referring to the quarrel between the Egyptian and the slave before, but I find that hard to believe. 

Wa aleykumsalaam, We have hadeeth explaining this events in details. Hadeeth is mentioned in Uyoon Akhbar Ar-Ridha:

Ibn Babuwayh, from Tameem Bin Abdullah Bin Tameem Al-Qarshy, from his father, from Hamdan Ibn Suleyman Al-Neyshaboury, from Ali Bin Muhammad Bin Al-Jahm who said,

‘I was present as the gathering of Al-Mamoun, and in his presence was Al-Reza Ali(as) Bin Musa – and mentioned the Hadeeth of the infallibility of the Prophets, and we had mentioned it elsewhere – so with regards to what Al-Mamoun asked Al-Reza was that he said to him, ‘Inform me about the Words of Allah Mighty and Majestic: So Musa sprung upon him. He said, ‘This is from the work of the Satan. He is an enemy, openly leading astray’ [28:15]’.

Al-Reza said: ‘Musa entered the city from the cities of the Pharaoh when its inhabitants were oblivious to it, and that is between the evening and the night, so he found therein two men fighting – this one was from his Shias, and this from his enemies. So he came to the aid of the one who was his Shia against the one from his enemies. So Musa struck against the enemy by the Command of Allah the Exalted, and he died. ‘This is from the work of the Satan, meaning the fighting which occurred between the two men, not what Musa did from killing him. He - meaning Satan, is an enemy, openly leading astray’ [28:15]’.

Al-Mamoun said, ‘So what is the meaning of the words of Musa: ‘My Lord! I have been unjust to myself, therefore Forgive (my deed) for me?’

He said: ‘he is saying, ‘I placed myself in the wrong place by entering this city, so Forgive me, i.e., Veil me from Your enemies, perhaps they may overcome upon me and kill me. So He Forgave (his deed) for him. Surely, He is the Forgiving, the Merciful [28:16].

Musa said: ‘ ‘My Lord! Due to what You Conferred upon me [28:17], from the strength to the extent that he killed a man by striking him, so I will never be a backer for the criminals’ [28:17], but I shall fight in Your Way by this strength until You are Pleased’.

So he – Musa, became fearful in the city, awaiting, when the one whom he had helped the day before sought his help. Musa said to him: ‘You are in clear error! [28:18]. You fought a man yesterday, and are fighting another one today?’ And he intended to strike him. So when he intended to strike the one who was an enemy to them, he said, ‘O Musa! Are you intending to kill me just as you killed a soul yesterday? Surely you are only wanting to become a tyrant in the land, and you are not wanting to become from the reconcilers’ [28:19]’.

Al-Mamoun said, ‘May Allah Recompense you good from His Prophets, O Abu Al-Hassan’.

 

Such discussion were present at time of Imams regarding Infallibility of prophets, proves that the Prophets were infallible, that is why Imam use to defend the prophets, any ayah which we feel talk against infallibility, must not be interpreted and understood literally, because there are more of a context which we are unaware of and hence we should not judge them quickly without the tafseer of Ahlulbayt(as).

 

 

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16 hours ago, Aquib Rizvi said:

Wa aleykumsalaam, We have hadeeth explaining this events in details. Hadeeth is mentioned in Uyoon Akhbar Ar-Ridha:

Ibn Babuwayh, from Tameem Bin Abdullah Bin Tameem Al-Qarshy, from his father, from Hamdan Ibn Suleyman Al-Neyshaboury, from Ali Bin Muhammad Bin Al-Jahm who said,

Yes brother I was aware of this hadith but it is not authentic and contains a Nasibi. 

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7 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Yes brother I was aware of this hadith but it is not authentic and contains a Nasibi. 

Point is we shouldn't take any ayah literally, since we are unaware of its complete story and event. Even if hadeeth is Weak as per chain, at least it give us different perspective to think of instead of literally understanding and interpreting this aayah without any knowledge. And I think hadeeth gave the best answers. Inshaallah.

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2 minutes ago, Aquib Rizvi said:

Point is we shouldn't take any ayah literally, since we are unaware of its complete story and event. Even if hadeeth is Weak as per chain, at least it give us different perspective to think of instead of literally understanding and interpreting this aayah without any knowledge. And I think hadeeth gave the best answers. Inshaallah.

I knew of the points made in this hadith. I addressed why I believe they are wrong in my first post. 

In addition, I think the hadith causes more problems. The hadith explains ظَلَمۡتُ نَفۡسِ as "I placed myself in the wrong place by entering this city". ok, but that is still a mistake....which goes counter to complete infallibility. 

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5 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

l'II challenge all your themes with this:

 lf you chose to question a nabi's infallibility, then first explain 'what makes their actions infallible' .

Bro...

I am simply asking for a correct explanation of this verse. No need to pose challenges instead of directly answering my queries. 

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt

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1 minute ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Bro...

I am simply asking for a correct explanation of this verse. No need to pose challenges instead of directly answering my queries. 

Good. lnshallah after fajr l'II post an answer.  Maybe other responders will post in the mean time.

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7 hours ago, Aquib Rizvi said:

Such discussion were present at time of Imams regarding Infallibility of prophets, proves that the Prophets were infallible, that is why Imam use to defend the prophets, any ayah which we feel talk against infallibility, must not be interpreted and understood literally, because there are more of a context which we are unaware of and hence we should not judge them quickly without the tafseer of Ahlulbayt(as).

The reply of Imam Ali Reza AS beings with the following words: Al-Reza (s) said, “O Ali! (Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Al-Jahm) Woe be to you! Fear God. Do not ascribe transgressions to the Prophets, and do not interpret God's Book according to your own opinion. Indeed the Honorable the Exalted God said,
‘…but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge…’(3:7)

Then the further explanation about these verses comes confirming  that the prophets are infallible.

Edited by skyweb1987

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9 hours ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

As some can explain the mistake of the Prophet (saw) praying 4 rak'at instead of 2 being from Allah. 

If its from Allah(awj), its not a Mistake. Allah(awj) made the law, If Allah(awj) suspends it for his Representatives for a "purpose". Its called a Divine Will. 

Who are "You"  to call it a Mistake- Are you Judging the Judge of all Judges? 

let me give you a secular example- I run a company, everyone is to report at 7:00 am sharp or there are late. I send  my manager on a assignment important for my business, he come in at 9:am. Employees are saying Manager came in late. While I am the Owner, I made the rule, and I suspended it for my Manager for a purpose important for my business. I don't call it a mistake, I was the one who gave him that assignment. but the employees are eager to have OMG party to brand that Manger that he was late. 

Did you get my point. 

 

You started this Thread, read it 

 

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49 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

If its from Allah(awj), its not a Mistake. Allah(awj) made the law, If Allah(awj) suspends it for his Representatives for a "purpose". Its called a Divine Will. 

Who are "You"  to call it a Mistake- Are you Judging the Judge of all Judges? 

I like to quote it further that if prophet makes sjada / prostration  in prayer with more than 70 times reciting Subhan a rabi al aaala wa be Hamdeh instead of usual 1 or 3 times and Imam Hussain AS is on his back,  it is certainly a divine will and not a mistake,

This part i agree with you.

Edited by skyweb1987

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22 hours ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

I knew of the points made in this hadith. I addressed why I believe they are wrong in my first post. 

In addition, I think the hadith causes more problems. The hadith explains ظَلَمۡتُ نَفۡسِ as "I placed myself in the wrong place by entering this city". ok, but that is still a mistake....which goes counter to complete infallibility. 

He didn't know by entering the city he will kill a person which will make an open enemy for him, if only he had known he wouldn't have done that. And that is why prophet Musa(as) is grieving, he is not grieving about the person he killed, he know he didn't do anything wrong there. Know that no one has a complete knowledge, and It will only be called a sin, when you have the knowledge of that and then you disobey. Allah knows best

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Ok so what I have understood so far is that Musa (as) intentionally killed the Egyptian. However, the reason he did istighfar is because as a result of killing the Egyptian, his life was at risk. When he says  ظَلَمۡتُ نَفۡسِ he means he has put himself to harm, as that is one of the meanings. As a result of putting himself to harm, he puts Islam into harm. That is why he did istighfar. He (as) did not do a sin or mistake, but the way things happened and turned out, the situation resulted in Islam and his own life being put into jeopardy.

Is this a correct understanding or is there other better explanations?

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2 hours ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Ok so what I have understood so far is that Musa (as) intentionally killed the Egyptian. However, the reason he did istighfar is because as a result of killing the Egyptian, his life was at risk. When he says  ظَلَمۡتُ نَفۡسِ he means he has put himself to harm, as that is one of the meanings. As a result of putting himself to harm, he puts Islam into harm. That is why he did istighfar. He (as) did not do a sin or mistake, but the way things happened and turned out, the situation resulted in Islam and his own life being put into jeopardy.

Is this a correct understanding or is there other better explanations?

I am posting again my response due to the time it took to be approved.

Musa (as) made that involontary killing (he just punched the guy because of the injustice he saw, with no intention of killing him) before the start of his prophethood. So there is no contradiction with his infallibility as a prophet.

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19 minutes ago, Abu Ali ibn Sina said:

I am posting again my response due to the time it took to be approved.

Musa (as) made that involontary killing (he just punched the guy because of the injustice he saw, with no intention of killing him) before the start of his prophethood. So there is no contradiction with his infallibility as a prophet.

ok so he mistakenly killed someone.

That goes against complete infallibility (that Prophets do no major sin, minor sin, or mistakes)

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23 minutes ago, Abu Ali ibn Sina said:

I am posting again my response due to the time it took to be approved.

 Musa (as) made that involontary killing (he just punched the guy because of the injustice he saw, with no intention of killing him) before the start of his prophethood. So there is no contradiction with his infallibility as a prophet.

do most scholars differentiate between before prophethood and after?

Isn't the famous view that they were Prophets from the time they were born?

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2 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

do most scholars differentiate between before prophethood and after?

Isn't the famous view that they were Prophets from the time they were born?

I don't know what is the view of scholars regarding that.

I think it's only Issa (as) who was a prophet (I mean he already began his prophethood) at his birth and maybe Adam (as) but for him it's a little different.

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Some might claim I put verses, Well.If people  understand basic/fundamental Concepts it will save them a lot of wondering around.

Who is his Lord/guardian? . Who's care is he under? 

(End of story)

I am a layman- simple, person. I deal in simple basic facts. I do not have a need to worry about any technical/word/ or other things, as long as the Mother/Basic/Fundamental/Decisive Concepts are clear. 

(Qur'an 3:7)

*****

وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ أُمِّ مُوسَىٰ أَنْ أَرْضِعِيهِ ۖ فَإِذَا خِفْتِ عَلَيْهِ فَأَلْقِيهِ فِي الْيَمِّ وَلَا تَخَافِي وَلَا تَحْزَنِي ۖ إِنَّا رَادُّوهُ إِلَيْكِ وَجَاعِلُوهُ مِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ {7}

[Shakir 28:7] And We revealed to Musa's mothers, saying: Give him suck, then when you fear for him, cast him into the river and do not fear nor grieve; surely We wi!l bring him back to you and make him one of the messengers.
[Pickthal 28:7] And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers.
[Yusufali 28:7] So We sent this inspiration to the mother of Moses: "Suckle (thy child), but when thou hast fears about him, cast him into the river, but fear not nor grieve: for We shall restore him to thee, and We shall make him one of Our messengers."

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