Jump to content
Leibniz

Hassan and Hussain during Mu'viya rule

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Hassan and Hussain lived in Madina  for 19 years during the reign of Mu'aviya before Karbala. What was their life like for those 19 years? I have read almost nothing about these 19 years in any history book. Can someone share something about these 19 years from authentic primary sources?

Edited by Heavenly_Silk
Edited as per member request.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it absolutely stupifying that we don't have any details of these 19 years. The only thing that I have heard is that they used to pray behind Marwan in Madina and Marwan shall curse Imam Ali and Hussain would curse back Marwan. The other thing that I have heard is that Hussain once got into a fued over some land with Walid Ibn utbah and the clan of bank Taim (Abu bakr's  clan ) came out in his support forcing Walid to handover the land to Hussain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Leibniz said:

Hassan and Hussain lived in Madina  for 19 years during the reign of Mu'aviya before Karbala. What was their life like for those 19 years? I have read almost nothing about these 19 years in any history book. Can someone share something about these 19 years from authentic primary sources?

Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain AS saved Islam during the Umayyad period that could have been vanished otherwise.

The following links may be helpful in this regards:

https://www.al-islam.org/understanding-karbala-allamah-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/how-imam-hasan-and-imam-husayn-saved-islam

https://www.al-islam.org/imam-hasan-and-caliphate-qurrat-ul-ain-abidiy/terms-peace-treaty

wasalam

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

Thank you but I want precise information about these 19 years. I feel something is missing from the history.

it's definitely censored by their enemies in history , if it was not effort of Shia muslims during history we didn't have these little information too , when somebody converts to Sunni islam ,sunnis hide these information from them , many people that reverted from sunni to Shia islam many times stated that truth was hidden from them by people around them in degree that they think that imam Hussain (as) & imam Hasan (as) died at childhood after demise of their mother. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

I feel something is missing from the history.

Not "something", too much is missing from the history. But still it contains valued information which can help people to find & get to the truth. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Not "something", too much is missing from the history. But still it contains valued information which can help people to find & get to the truth. 

 

48 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

it's definitely censored by their enemies in history , if it was not effort of Shia muslims during history we didn't have these little information too , when somebody converts to Sunni islam ,sunnis hide these information from them , many people that reverted from sunni to Shia islam many times stated that truth was hidden from them by people around them in degree that they think that imam Hussain (as) & imam Hasan (as) died at childhood after demise of their mother. 

The issue is not that of Sunnis. For them Hassan and Hussain were just some other 'companions' and as nothing much is recorded about the life of Abdullah Ibn Zubair's life during Mu'aviya rule , we don't have a detailed account of Hassan and Hussain lives for those long 19 years. The matter of concern is that we don't have any Shi'i narrative of those 19 years as well.

My second concern is that after these 19 years in Madina , we know that Hussain decided to move to Kufa because he was convinced Kufans have raised against Yazid. Why did not Hussain have a popular support in Madina? Abdullah Ibn Zubair also lead a rebellion against Yazid and his bastion was Mecca and Madina and it seems that he had some popular support as well as his kingdom later on covered a large area including all of Hejjaz , most of Iraq and parts of Syria before the Ummayads over powered him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/24/2018 at 8:20 PM, Leibniz said:

Thank you but I want precise information about these 19 years. I feel something is missing from the history.

You are right but history books can only contain stuff that historians write about. 

If they don't write, then you will not find anything.

Imam Hasan and Husain were not part of the current government of Muawiya.

Therefore historians concentrated on Muawiya's government, which did not include the two Imams.

There are, of course, scattered accounts of some of the events in books by Shia writers, because the Imams did carry out their duties of guiding people to the truth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/26/2018 at 8:27 AM, baqar said:

You are right but history books can only contain stuff that historians write about. 

If they don't write, then you will not find anything.

Imam Hasan and Husain were not part of the current government of Muawiya.

Therefore historians concentrated on Muawiya's government, which did not include the two Imams.

There are, of course, scattered accounts of some of the events in books by Shia writers, because the Imams did carry out their duties of guiding people to the truth.

I don't think so that's factually correct. Many other prominent Sunni 'Sahaba' were not rulers either and we have all the details about their lives. The same goes for many scholars of that era. It was not like the camera was so much focused on the rulers that it missed 19 years of the life of people as prominent as Hassan and Hussain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/24/2018 at 2:03 PM, Leibniz said:

The issue is not that of Sunnis. For them Hassan and Hussain were just some other 'companions' and as nothing much is recorded about the life of Abdullah Ibn Zubair's life during Mu'aviya rule , we don't have a detailed account of Hassan and Hussain lives for those long 19 years. The matter of concern is that we don't have any Shi'i narrative of those 19 years as well.

My second concern is that after these 19 years in Madina , we know that Hussain decided to move to Kufa because he was convinced Kufans have raised against Yazid. Why did not Hussain have a popular support in Madina? Abdullah Ibn Zubair also lead a rebellion against Yazid and his bastion was Mecca and Madina and it seems that he had some popular support as well as his kingdom later on covered a large area including all of Hejjaz , most of Iraq and parts of Syria before the Ummayads over powered him.

Abdullah ibn Zubair had also political conflict with Muawiah (la) too so it's rational that Ummayids censored most of information about him too, but he was from begining was against Imam Imam Ali (as) & Hasan (as) & Imam Hussain (as) too 

about your second concern , Imam Ali (as)  moved his capital & base of command before that to Kufa during his caliphate , Medina people was just respecting as family of prohet (pb) but they were not firm enough in term of political support of them although many Hashemites were residing at Medina but they were not involving themselves in politic & military support  & when Imam Hasan (as) bring an army toward Muawaih (la) many people from Medina betrayed him even during their march before start of battle ,during time of Imam Hussain (as) Muawiah (la) & after that his son Yaeed (la) made Mecca & Medina full of their fans in name of easing Hajj pilgrimage & changed & rest of people of Mecca & Medina preferd Zubbair (la) to Imam Hussain (as) 

Zubbair (la) hasn't too much difference with Muawiah (la) & Yazeed (la) toward behaviour & doctrine about Shia Imams (as) & muslims & he was on wrong path too that was not acceptable by Imam Hasan (as) & Imam Hussain (as) too but they don't have enough support in Medina & Mecca even in Kufa Imam hussain (as) didn't has enough supporters but people of Kufa invited him toward themselves but real intention of Imam Hussain (as) was standing against corrupted Yazeed (la), his journey toward Kufa was not as important as this matter he accepted this invitation although he knew he will be martyred & won't reach Kufa to expose the lies of fake supporters & stand against corrupted system.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hasan and Hussain lived in retirement essentially and visited muawiyah once I think and some sources say ibn Abbas and Hussain participated in the siege of constantinople 

Their support in medina  was amongst the old Ansar but most of them were dead by 60 AH or really old or settled in iraq / egypt after the first fitna 

E.g longest living badri is kab b amr who attended siffin with Ali  was dead by 55 AH 

ALids support in iraq was much more important militarily as the " fighters "left in hijaz after first fitna were fop and dandies,  real battle hardened veterans were in frontier states like Syria and iraq 

Ibn zubair support was mostly amongst the Meccan quraish who did not like Ali as during the battle of Jamal a large number of quraish meccan leaders were killed 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/24/2018 at 3:20 AM, Leibniz said:

Thank you but I want precise information about these 19 years. I feel something is missing from the history.

History writing revolves around revolutions, battles,  treaties or big religious events 

It misses the mundane day to day life even of important personalities so given how reclusive Hasnain were during this time it's not surprising 

So same is a big missing gap in life of Ali from saqifa to murder of uthman very few details or events 

 

Also how many companions of first 3 imam are considered authentic by 12er imami shias today ?

How many hadith does 12er imami sources narrate from companions of first 3 imams?

They narrate 100s hadith from companions of imam baqir and later 

Kitab sulaym b qays is there but very controversial it has some events on those 19 yrs 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/27/2018 at 2:25 AM, Leibniz said:

I don't think so that's factually correct. Many other prominent Sunni 'Sahaba' were not rulers either and we have all the details about their lives. The same goes for many scholars of that era. It was not like the camera was so much focused on the rulers that it missed 19 years of the life of people as prominent as Hassan and Hussain.

How is it not factual that the enemies of Islam try to silence the true voices of Islam throughout history, such as by burning books and imprisoning/killing anyone who opposes them.

What is so difficult in understanding that the "Winners" write history?

On 11/27/2018 at 2:25 AM, Leibniz said:

it missed 19 years of the life of people as prominent as Hassan and Hussain.

That should tell you something. They don't want you to even mention them.

And yet, despite all this, the legacy of Ahlulbayt (a.s) survived, subhanallah, Allah is the best of planners.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, dragonxx said:

How is it not factual that the enemies of Islam try to silence the true voices of Islam throughout history, such as by burning books and imprisoning/killing anyone who opposes them.

What is so difficult in understanding that the "Winners" write history?

That should tell you something. They don't want you to even mention them.

And yet, despite all this, the legacy of Ahlulbayt (a.s) survived, subhanallah, Allah is the best of planners.

Fine , its understandable that 'they' don't want to mention them but I could not find anything in the Tashayyu sources about those 19 years. Whatever little I could dig out was from the Sunni sources. I have infact found two more narrations of those 19 years in Sunni sources which I shall past some time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

History writing revolves around revolutions, battles,  treaties or big religious events 

It misses the mundane day to day life even of important personalities so given how reclusive Hasnain were during this time it's not surprising 

So same is a big missing gap in life of Ali from saqifa to murder of uthman very few details or events 

 

Also how many companions of first 3 imam are considered authentic by 12er imami shias today ?

How many hadith does 12er imami sources narrate from companions of first 3 imams?

They narrate 100s hadith from companions of imam baqir and later 

Kitab sulaym b qays is there but very controversial it has some events on those 19 yrs 

Right. History focuses on major events but like in the case of Ali you see him around , may be after long intervals , here and there during the caliphate of the first three caliphs but Hassan and Hussain for those long 19 years are out of picture absolutely. It was the perfect time for them to educate their Shia circles in Madina and we should have seen abundant Hadiths  , during that era , being narrated from them and about them in the Shia sources. But we find nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In contrast a lot of ahadith are narrated by

Abdullah Ibn Abbas 

Jabir b Abdullah 

Abu Saeed al khudri

3 clearly pro Ali sahabi , in the same era and same area of hijaz , so u cannot say that "oh ummayyad propaganda destroyed those pro shia hadith by hasnain" 

 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Leibniz said:

Right. History focuses on major events but like in the case of Ali you see him around , may be after long intervals , here and there during the caliphate of the first three caliphs but Hassan and Hussain for those long 19 years are out of picture absolutely. It was the perfect time for them to educate their Shia circles in Madina and we should have seen abundant Hadiths  , during that era , being narrated from them and about them in the Shia sources. But we find nothing.

Also regarding Ali we see he has built up a huge following in iraq egypt and medina as evidenced by the wide based support of Ali in these provinces by the time uthman was killed even though Ali held no office , had not participated in futuhat in times of the 3 caliphs that's a period of 20+ yrs 

Even saad b abi waqqas the hero of qadisiyah had no such network of supporters.

Covertly or overtly Ali and his disciples staged a great comeback 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/24/2018 at 3:20 AM, Leibniz said:

Thank you but I want precise information about these 19 years. I feel something is missing from the history.

Like an audio tape?

On 11/24/2018 at 4:33 AM, Leibniz said:

My second concern is that after these 19 years in Madina , we know that Hussain decided to move to Kufa because he was convinced Kufans have raised against Yazid. Why did not Hussain have a popular support in Madina? Abdullah Ibn Zubair also lead a rebellion against Yazid and his bastion was Mecca and Madina and it seems that he had some popular support as well as his kingdom later on covered a large area including all of Hejjaz , most of Iraq and parts of Syria before the Ummayads over powered him.

Lol. Remember you owe me a primary source proof that Imam Hussain (as) was moving to Kufa to start a revolution. You can't run away by creating a new thread.

You ask the question that what did Imam Hassan (as) and Imam Hussain (as) do during the 19 years of Muawiya's reign.

The reason no Imam started nor supported a revolution is because they lost nothing by not being in power. The loss was of the people and if the people would rather have a ruler like Muawiya and Yazeed then they deserved such despicable rulers. Rulers are basically a reflection of the people.

The real question is that when the Ummah knew that Imam Hasan (as) and Imam Hussain (as) were known as the Leaders of the Youth of Paradise, why didn't the entire Ummah rise up against Muawiya to remove him from power and put Imam Hasan (as) in power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

The real question is that when the Ummah knew that Imam Hasan (as) and Imam Hussain (as) were known as the Leaders of the Youth of Paradise, why didn't the entire Ummah rise up against Muawiya to remove him from power and put Imam Hasan (as) in power.

Yes, brother, it was a famous hadith.

And the major reason why they did not rise against Muawiyah is because such an action requires an organizational head but after Karbala, there wasn't any. 

Some people may also have thought it wiser to join Muawiyah rather than resist him. 

Edited by baqar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, baqar said:

Yes, brother, it was a famous hadith.

And the major reason why they did not rise against Muawiyah is because such an action requires an organizational head but after Karbala, there wasn't any. 

Some people may also have thought it wiser to join Muawiyah rather than resist him. 

How does that hadith entail that the Ummah should raise up to appoint Hassan as Caliph instead of Mu'aviya? The "Ummah" did not rising up for this cause is simply an indication that people in majority did not interpret this Hadith in the political terms you want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Leibniz said:

Right. History focuses on major events but like in the case of Ali you see him around , may be after long intervals , here and there during the caliphate of the first three caliphs but Hassan and Hussain for those long 19 years are out of picture absolutely. It was the perfect time for them to educate their Shia circles in Madina and we should have seen abundant Hadiths  , during that era , being narrated from them and about them in the Shia sources. But we find nothing.

how they could educate Shias when Muawiah had agents in Imam Hasan (as) house that convinced his wife to poison him & imam Hussain (as) was following Imam Huasan (as) policy & after his martyrdom he was constantly under treat of assassination by agents of Muawiah (la) ,only Imam Baqir (as) & imam Sadiq (as) had this opputunity because of conflict of Ummayids with Abbasids that they could teach hundreds of Shias & Sunnis students but after them this window closed again by Abbasyds .

you think they were living in separate & isolated  areas from each other but it was not true because whole islamic lands even Mecca & Medina was under influence of Muawiah (la) in degree that when Imam Ali (as) martyred in mosque except people of  Kufa was believing he didn't pray or doing islamic rituals ,in the Zyarat duas until time of eighth imam Reza (as) we do testimony that they were praying & were paying Zakat because of propaganda of Ummayid & Abbasids people were thinking that Shia Imams didn't pray & pay Zakat same as what anti shia channels spread it about Shias now.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:salam:

Refer to Mawsu'ah al-Tarikh al-Islami, by Ayatullah Yusafi Gharawi, vol. 5 and 6. In volume 5 many reports discussing Imam Hasan's life during Mu'awiyah's time are mentioned, and in the beginning of volume 6 the first 40-odd pages discusses Imam Husayn (a) during the time of Mu'awiyah. The Arabic can be downloaded here: http://alfeker.net/library.php?id=3262

Wasalam

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

:salam:

Refer to Mawsu'ah al-Tarikh al-Islami, by Ayatullah Yusafi Gharawi, vol. 5 and 6. In volume 5 many reports discussing Imam Hasan's life during Mu'awiyah's time are mentioned, and in the beginning of volume 6 the first 40-odd pages discusses Imam Husayn (a) during the time of Mu'awiyah. The Arabic can be downloaded here: http://alfeker.net/library.php?id=3262

Wasalam

 

WS , thank you. This is what I was looking for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/24/2018 at 3:20 AM, Leibniz said:

Thank you but I want precise information about these 19 years. I feel something is missing from the history.

https://www.hilmi.eu/islam/books/maaref-foundation/www.maaref-foundation.com/english/library/pro_ahl/imam02_hasan/the_life_of_imam_hasan/index.htm

Good Detailed Bio of Imam Hasan (AS) by Jasim Al Rasheed.

Chapters 12 - 21 cover the era from the Caliphate of Imam Hasan (AS) thru to his Martyrdom. As mentioned above not much detail but this book does spend 343 pages on the time period that you are asking about.

https://www.hilmi.eu/islam/books/maaref-foundation/www.maaref-foundation.com/english/library/pro_ahl/imam03_husain/the_life_of_imam_husain/index.htm

Also, a very good detailed bio of Imam Husain (AS) by Baqir Shareef Al Qurayshi.

Chapters on Muawiya's rule begin on Pg. 392 - 431. Again, not much detail on that time period but some good data nonetheless.

I would dare to say one can infer how Imam Hasan (AS) & Imam Husain (AS) would have acted during those particular time periods based on an evaluation of rest of their lives as well as an evaluation of the life of Imam Ali (AS) during the caliphates of the first 3.

On a side note, that website (which changes addresses every couple of years) is a great online resource for research as they've digitzed a ton of large volumnous books. Not only detailed bios of the Ahle Bayt (AS) but also other topics.

https://www.hilmi.eu/islam/books/maaref-foundation/www.maaref-foundation.com/english/library/index.htm

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×