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In the Name of God بسم الله
Guest abduzahra

waseelah of mary and jesus

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7 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I do understand bil quwah & bil fe'l.

Apparently, as I mentioned earlier, it is his fazeelat that he has helped Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Apparently, you cannot give any example where Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) has helped Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or the bearer of his minniyat.

If you have any example, plz share

Did you not listen to the whole lecture.

Isa(عليه السلام) has given a pledge to be a helper to Rasul Allah(sawws).

Listen to lecture to understand the possession of Bil Quwa and Bil Fael.

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25 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I am doing nothing, this verse is not mutashabeh. I am not interpreting anything nor extrapolating anything out of this verse. 

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 69:

وَمَن يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَاءِ وَالصَّالِحِينَ وَحَسُنَ أُولَٰئِكَ رَفِيقًا

And whoever obeys Allah and the Apostle, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the Prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they! (English - Shakir) 

Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) has indeed obeyed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Apostle (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). He is a shaheed, Abdus-saleh and siddiq as well. He is among those upon whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed in'am as mentioned in the verse above.

Do you have any problem in this statement? If yes, what?

How does this equate to superiority of Abbas(عليه السلام) over Isa(عليه السلام)?

The path you are choosing is of conjecture/Qiyas and the the better description would be bil rae. 

Therefore I asked you to ask a proper scholar other than Hafiz Tassaduq Hussain for he is a man of Qiyas bil Rae. 

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22 minutes ago, haideriam said:

How does this equate to superiority of Abbas(عليه السلام) over Isa(عليه السلام)?

The path you are choosing is of conjecture/Qiyas and the the better description would be bil rae. 

Therefore I asked you to ask a proper scholar other than Hafiz Tassaduq Hussain for he is a man of Qiyas bil Rae. 

Are you saying Hz Abbas was not given the title of Babul Hawaij by Imams? That means it is something we made up after, so how can we say this about a holy personality?

Allah is too high to reach and we are sinful and he can not see us because of our sins, but Hz Abbas opens his arms to us despite our low position and sins.

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Guest BULB

The whole talk of superiority of this to that is futile. 

Think of this way, had Jesus AS been in Karbala, he would have fought under the general Abul Fazlil Abbas AS. 

Had Abbas AS been in the time of Jesus AS, he would have been one of the most ardent followers of Jesus AS.

For future reference, whenever the talk of comparisons come in your mind, think of the comparison that Iblees did, between himself (of fire) and Adam (of dust). So most comparisons like these are derivatives of Shaytan.

As far as shafa’at (intercession), there is no comparison of the Muhammad and Ale-Muhammad (sawaw).  

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7 hours ago, haideriam said:

Isa(عليه السلام) has given a pledge to be a helper to Rasul Allah(sawws).

Correct, as per 3:81, that can be assumed as "bil quwah"

But Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) is not a nabi so to make a comparision between two we need to see the other side as well I.e., "bil fe'l".

I don't know why you failed to grasp that I am talking about "bil fe'l" despite of the fact that I have used the words "apparently" (بظاہر) several times.

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3 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Correct, as per 3:81, that can be assumed as "bil quwah"

But Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) is not a nabi so to make a comparision between two we need to see the other side as well I.e., "bil fe'l".

I don't know why you failed to grasp that I am talking about "bil fe'l" despite of the fact that I have used the words "apparently" (بظاہر) several times.

Because what you are not understanding is that the possession of the degree of a characteristic be it bil quwa or bil fael is the determinant and not of one manifesting itself earlier.

He even gave example of the bil quwa of Rasool Allah(sawws) becoming a fael in the Imams Hasnain(عليه السلام) in its' respective highest degree. 

There is no comparison here brother, it is fallacious thought. 

Janabe Abbas(عليه السلام) is not even from amongst the 14 Masoomeen(عليه السلام).

Tomorrow Shahbaz Qalander or that Baba Sada Hussain of Lahore will start to compare with the Prophet Isa(عليه السلام)

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1 hour ago, haideriam said:

There is no comparison here brother, it is fallacious thought. 

Janabe Abbas(عليه السلام) is not even from amongst the 14 Masoomeen(عليه السلام).

So you're telling me what I have already told to others:

18 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Asking from me who is superior from the two, one of which is a Prophet and a ma'soom while the other is helper of Prophet and ghayr e ma'soom is an absurd question indeed while you know that I am not the One who decide which one of them is superior.

Based on my limited knowledge, I have given you a fazeelat of that ghayr ma'soom. What else do you want reformist? Should I mention more fazail of Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام)?

How it was considered "a fazeelat" by me is given as under:
 

Quote

 I would say because he sacrificed his life as well as adornment of this worldly life (zenat-e-hayat-e-duniya) in nusrat-e-haqq I.e., in helping the one who is the bearer of the minniyat of Rasool Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). I hope that it was a wish of Prophet Isa ((عليه السلام)) to be among those who helped Imam Hussain ((عليه السلام)) and sacrificed their lives for him.

 

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1 hour ago, haideriam said:

Because what you are not understanding is that the possession of the degree of a characteristic be it bil quwa or bil fael is the determinant and not of one manifesting itself earlier.

He even gave example of the bil quwa of Rasool Allah(sawws) becoming a fael in the Imams Hasnain(عليه السلام) in its' respective highest degree. 

Bil Quwa of Rasool Allah becoming bil fe'l in Imam Hussain because of the relationship of the minniyat. Otherwise you would have same argument that it is determinant. 

I do believe, and it is my personal opinion, that Prophet Jesus would have wished (because of his pledge) for among the ones who helped Imam Hussain (asws) in Karbala. And this is not the ordinary battle, here we have witnessed the "Zibhin Azeem". Had Jesus been in Karbala in place of Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام), would he chose to throw away water and prohibit himself for drinking water after occupying the river? We cannot answer these types of speculative questions, but I do believe that the character of Abbas (عليه السلام) is only one just like there is only one Hussain (عليه السلام)

Secondly, the verse 4:69

And whoever obeys Allah and the Apostle, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the Prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they! (English - Shakir) 

The bolded part is one group, and they are companions to each other. The only fazeelat mentioned in this verse for this group is that they are the ones upon whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed in'am. So "for us" with our limited knowledge, there is equality in status because we don't know upon whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed greater in'am, only Allah knows that and what we can say for sure is that there would be higher status for Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) because of various mutawatir ahadith and many verses of Qur'an.

Wallaho Aa'lam

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19 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

but I do believe that the character of Abbas (عليه السلام) is only one just like there is only one Hussain (عليه السلام)

While we see in Qur'an, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is mentioning the mithl of Jesus (عليه السلام) in the following verse:

إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَى عِندَ اللّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ 
3:59 

The roles & characters of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) and Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) are "Bay-Mithl". 

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10 hours ago, Guest BULB said:

The whole talk of superiority of this to that is futile. 

Think of this way, had Jesus AS been in Karbala, he would have fought under the general Abul Fazlil Abbas AS. 

Had Abbas AS been in the time of Jesus AS, he would have been one of the most ardent followers of Jesus AS.

For future reference, whenever the talk of comparisons come in your mind, think of the comparison that Iblees did, between himself (of fire) and Adam (of dust). So most comparisons like these are derivatives of Shaytan.

As far as shafa’at (intercession), there is no comparison of the Muhammad and Ale-Muhammad (sawaw).  

So comparing Imam Ali to the rest of the companions is futile and the derivative of shaytan too right? That is usually the topic for 75% of Shia mimbars...

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On 4/19/2019 at 9:52 AM, Salsabeel said:

Bil Quwa of Rasool Allah becoming bil fe'l in Imam Hussain because of the relationship of the minniyat. Otherwise you would have same argument that it is determinant. 

I do believe, and it is my personal opinion, that Prophet Jesus would have wished (because of his pledge) for among the ones who helped Imam Hussain (asws) in Karbala. And this is not the ordinary battle, here we have witnessed the "Zibhin Azeem". Had Jesus been in Karbala in place of Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام), would he chose to throw away water and prohibit himself for drinking water after occupying the river? We cannot answer these types of speculative questions, but I do believe that the character of Abbas (عليه السلام) is only one just like there is only one Hussain (عليه السلام)
 

I can see that you have not truly understood the first bold hence you would not so adamantly defend your conjecture.

The second bold is a very dangerous slippery slope as you do not have the right tools and knowledge to make a judgement or opinion. 

I hope you see where you are going wrong my brother. 

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On 4/19/2019 at 10:14 AM, Salsabeel said:

While we see in Qur'an, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is mentioning the mithl of Jesus (عليه السلام) in the following verse:

إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَى عِندَ اللّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ 
3:59 

The roles & characters of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) and Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) are "Bay-Mithl". 

This is the reason I told you brother to talk to an educated scholar rather than the one liners above which is filled with qiyas. 

Send a question to any marja site for an answer as to who is higher in the hierarchy Isa(عليه السلام) or Abbas(عليه السلام). 

Please do not confuse yourself any further in your own conjecture. 

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3 hours ago, haideriam said:

I can see that you have not truly understood the first bold hence you would not so adamantly defend your conjecture.

:) And how should I view this statement of yours? A conjecture or a suggestion? Whatever it is, it is lacking the reasoning. Would you please help me explaining what & where I misunderstood?

3 hours ago, haideriam said:

The second bold is a very dangerous slippery slope as you do not have the right tools and knowledge to make a judgement or opinion. 

I can keep any  personal opinions, there is one Hussain (عليه السلام) and there is one Abbas (عليه السلام). 

The role, which Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) played in displaying shahadat e jehri of Prophet (S) has not displayed by anyone from the 14 infallibles while they all are Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (kullona Muhammad).

Similarly Abbas (عليه السلام) is one in his role & character because Imam Ali (عليه السلام) never prayed for another son after him.

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6 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:) And how should I view this statement of yours? A conjecture or a suggestion? Whatever it is, it is lacking the reasoning. Would you please help me explaining what & where I misunderstood?

Ya Allah!!! Here we go again. Brother try and understand what he is saying and not try and understand from your own conjectural point of view. 

Whether it is Quwa or Fael does not matter, what matters is the possession of it, to become fael at the opportune time. So the greater your rank the greater the possession of the trait.  

Like the Quwa of Shahadat in the Holy Prophet(sawws) becoming Fael in Imam Hussain(عليه السلام) at a later stage. 

 

6 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I can keep any  personal opinions, there is one Hussain (عليه السلام) and there is one Abbas (عليه السلام). 

The role, which Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) played in displaying shahadat e jehri of Prophet (S) has not displayed by anyone from the 14 infallibles while they all are Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (kullona Muhammad).

Similarly Abbas (عليه السلام) is one in his role & character because Imam Ali (عليه السلام) never prayed for another son after him.

Who stops anyone from any personal opinion, even for the disbelievers (la kum deen o kum),

just the connecting of it without the proper tools and understanding is Qiyas, which is Haram. 

I cannot for the life of me not figure out as to why you do not want to talk to a knowledgeable scholar about it. Brother do not be afraid of the truth and do not be afraid of being wrong in an argument for the sake of the truth. 

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10 minutes ago, haideriam said:

Like the Quwa of Shahadat in the Holy Prophet(sawws) becoming Fael in Imam Hussain(عليه السلام) at a later stage. 

So Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) of his time. He is the bearer of the minniyat, that's what makes his shahadat, shahadat e jehri of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

13 minutes ago, haideriam said:

just the connecting of it without the proper tools and understanding is Qiyas, which is Haram. 

It is not the matter of deen my dear brother!!

Viewing the characters & roles of chosen ones from special/different angles is not prohibited. 

20 minutes ago, haideriam said:

why you do not want to talk to a knowledgeable scholar about it

About what??? That Jesus (عليه السلام) is higher in status than Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) or not?

I know the answer. Whatever & whoever (other than the Ahlul Bayt) tries to answer this question would just give his personal opinion. In reality, Only God knows who is superior in status.

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1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

So Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) of his time. He is the bearer of the minniyat, that's what makes his shahadat, shahadat e jehri of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

So shall I say that Imam Hussain is the Rasool as well. 

1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

It is not the matter of deen my dear brother!!

Viewing the characters & roles of chosen ones from special/different angles is not prohibited. 

Not prohibited but for personal consumption till actually qualified by an alim (proper)

 

1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

About what??? That Jesus (عليه السلام) is higher in status than Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) or not?

I know the answer. Whatever & whoever (other than the Ahlul Bayt) tries to answer this question would just give his personal opinion. In reality, Only God knows who is superior in status.

It says why you don't want the false idols shattered my dear brother. It is the fear.

The only correct Shia views are as below and they do not even take Hazrat Abbas(عليه السلام) into the equation. 

Where you got this one from no one has any idea. Only people and places are Baqir Nisar Zaidi of Ancholi and Tassaduq Hussain of Lahore.

It is very dangerous to think of oneself as 'qul' or a mujtahid without the right qualifications.  You enter the Haram area of Qiyas.

 

On 4/18/2019 at 10:21 AM, haideriam said:

:bismillah:

:salam:

Hazrat Abbas(عليه السلام) is not superior to Hazrat Isa(عليه السلام) an ulul azm Prophet. 

In fact among Shia there are 3 concepts in the order of adherents amongst the learned. This does not include Maula Abbas(عليه السلام) for all his greatness.

1. Rasool Allah(sawws) and the 14 Masoomeen(عليه السلام) are above in rank to all Prophets(عليه السلام)

2. Ulul Azm Prophets(عليه السلام) are above in rank to the Imams(عليه السلام)

3. All Prophets(عليه السلام) are above in rank to the Imams(عليه السلام)

:ws:

 

 

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32 minutes ago, haideriam said:

So shall I say that Imam Hussain is the Rasool as well

He is not a Prophet but he is wali and Imam. Further more you can cite the phrase of hadith e kisa "innahum minni wa ana minhum".

35 minutes ago, haideriam said:

The only correct Shia views are as below and they do not even take Hazrat Abbas(عليه السلام) into the equation. 

I have given my personal view and only mention a single fazeelat of hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) which was not yet enjoyed by Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) I.e., he sacrificed his life for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and in their help, in their obediance. Prophet Esa (عليه السلام) has yet to display his this ability which is present in him bil quwah.

44 minutes ago, haideriam said:

It is very dangerous to think of oneself as 'qul' or a mujtahid without the right qualifications.  You enter the Haram area of Qiyas.

I am not giving any religious ruling neither I am mentioning aqeedah or position of shi'ate. As long as I am not doing that I am safe from all you allegations or what you're thinking of me.

You also need to understand basic facts that "fazeelat" is a word which is derived from fazl and fazl is in the hands of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

قُلْ إِنَّ الْفَضْلَ بِيَدِ اللّهِ

And there are many types of fazl. Some one's bravery is fazl, knowledge is fazl, beauty or other physical appearence like tall, powerful etc. Even the sons/daughters, wives are also counted as fazl e khuda.

I am mentioning that fazeelat, and in that context, I can mention more faza'il.

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1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

He is not a Prophet but he is wali and Imam. Further more you can cite the phrase of hadith e kisa "innahum minni wa ana minhum".

Brother you quote these one liners like the scholars are not aware of them.  Besides the full Hadith e kisa is not even part of Sheikh Qummi's Mafiteh.  This is trying to go ahead of the scholars and I am sure you don't but is equating oneself to 'Aql e Qul'.

 

1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

I have given my personal view and only mention a single fazeelat of hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) which was not yet enjoyed by Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) I.e., he sacrificed his life for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and in their help, in their obediance. Prophet Esa (عليه السلام) has yet to display his this ability which is present in him bil quwah.

I am not giving any religious ruling neither I am mentioning aqeedah or position of shi'ate. As long as I am not doing that I am safe from all you allegations or what you're thinking of me.

You also need to understand basic facts that "fazeelat" is a word which is derived from fazl and fazl is in the hands of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

قُلْ إِنَّ الْفَضْلَ بِيَدِ اللّهِ

And there are many types of fazl. Some one's bravery is fazl, knowledge is fazl, beauty or other physical appearence like tall, powerful etc. Even the sons/daughters, wives are also counted as fazl e khuda.

I am mentioning that fazeelat, and in that context, I can mention more faza'il.

So you are articulating a view based on your own Qiyas which is Haram for the full audience of shiachat and others outside, a view which is not even Shia, to many an impressionable younger brothers. Responsibility is a word that comes to mind. 

Besides I have told you of the three Shia scholarly views. Is this a new view outside the fold of shiaism. 

Plus you are not willing to seek guidance or ask a learned scholar, because the answer will fit your conjecture. 

 

1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

Another one is that he is "Abul Fazl" :)

Hazrat Abbas(عليه السلام) had a son named Fadl. 

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1 minute ago, haideriam said:

Brother you quote these one liners like the scholars are not aware of them.  Besides the full Hadith e kisa is not even part of Sheikh Qummi's Mafiteh.  This is trying to go ahead of the scholars and I am sure you don't but is equating oneself to 'Aql e Qul'.

I think you need a good sleep or time for rest. Please have it and spare me.

3 minutes ago, haideriam said:

So you are articulating a view based on your own Qiyas which is Haram for the full audience of shiachat and others outside, a view which is not even Shia, to many an impressionable younger brothers. Responsibility is a word that comes to mind. 

Ok, and what you and your friends were doing here? Khutba e Fadak was the words of Al-Jahiz, this is Shia position? And should I refer you more threads?

You're continue to throw allegations on me despite the fact that I have never claimed that I am a scholar nor I have claimed that I am presenting Shia position. Whatever has been mentioned is a fazeelat in my opinion. 

 

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