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In the Name of God بسم الله
Guest abduzahra

waseelah of mary and jesus

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10 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:hahaha: what I knew I have shared with you, insisting on your absurd question is like you're insisting on ignorance.

 

absurd? It is a fair question based off your posts. When you were asked to clear up your stance, you refrained from answering. You would make a great candidate in the Trump organization LOL

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On 11/19/2018 at 4:59 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

he is infallible .............Haz Abbas did't commit a sin also he highly attached to Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) also has better attributes than any Christian saints & apostles of christ  

He did not commit sin but he is not infallible. 

Had infallibility not been restricted to the fourteen infallibles ((عليه السلام).) on account of divine prudence, it would not be surprising if Hazrat Abbas ((عليه السلام).) too would have been included amongst one of the immaculate ones protected by Allah! Although, officially Hazrat Abbas ((عليه السلام).) is not enlisted among the infallible guides, nevertheless, he is protected and preserved from all kinds of sins and errors.

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2 minutes ago, 786:) said:

absurd? It is a fair question based off your posts. When you were asked to clear up your stance, you refrained from answering.

Asking from me who is superior from the two, one of which is a Prophet and a ma'soom while the other is helper of Prophet and ghayr e ma'soom is an absurd question indeed while you know that I am not the One who decide which one of them is superior.

Based on my limited knowledge, I have given you a fazeelat of that ghayr ma'soom. What else do you want reformist? Should I mention more fazail of Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام)?

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Guest Enquire

At the bottom of the day, I think what we need to ascertain is the following:

Is it permissible to call out to Jesus and Mary with the formula: "O Mary, grant me sustenance and a child" with the intention God has given her the power to, in the same way a minority of Shias claim can be done with Hz Abbas? 

Why are we uncomfortable in calling out to Jesus and Mary to grant us sustenance, children, wealth, safety if they are superior to Hz Abbas?

I'd like to make a disclaimer I don't do any of this myself.

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@786

One thing you are forgetting is that Hz Abbas has been given a special title few others have as Baab -al Hawaa'ij. He is with few others the doors to the desires. Was Jesus given this special title as much as we respect him?

Some time after the death of Hazrat Abbas, some of the followers and maybe scholars decided because of his great sacrifice in Kerbala, Hz Abbas would have this special title. Not to be mean, but how can you override them?

This is what has been done father to son going back hundreds of years and this is what we found a strong tradition and practise doing. 

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36 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:hahaha: I would really hate to work for your organization reformist. You bring Trump here because you & he both are reformists.

:party:

I know right? He's asking us to logically explain this when the fact it is based on faith and our love and attachment. He claims Jesus has a better Waseelah, but our tears and emotional attachment to Hazrat Abbas cultivated from when we were kids can not be matched. 

This is what we found our fathers doing, and a reformist isn't going to make us change that.

 

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57 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

He did not commit sin but he is not infallible. 

Had infallibility not been restricted to the fourteen infallibles ((عليه السلام).) on account of divine prudence, it would not be surprising if Hazrat Abbas ((عليه السلام).) too would have been included amongst one of the immaculate ones protected by Allah! Although, officially Hazrat Abbas ((عليه السلام).) is not enlisted among the infallible guides, nevertheless, he is protected and preserved from all kinds of sins and errors.

Unfortunately, other than the fact the fourteen Masumeen are infallible, as much as we love Hz Abbas, there was not only no need for him to be infallible, he isn't and wasn't. It might not fit the narrative, but that is the reality. 

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1 hour ago, Guest Enquire said:

He claims Jesus has a better Waseelah, but our tears and emotional attachment to Hazrat Abbas cultivated from when we were kids can not be matched. 

We are not discussing the wasilah, I don't know how you got the impression that we're discussing wasilah.

3 hours ago, 786:) said:

Who is superior Hz Abbas or Hz Isa?

 

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1 hour ago, Guest Enquire said:

Is it permissible to call out to Jesus and Mary with the formula: "O Mary, grant me sustenance and a child" with the intention God has given her the power to

I would suggest a change in this formula:

"Ilahi behaqqe Maryam wa anta man huwa istifaki wa tahharaki wastafaki alan-nisa'il aa'lameen"

1 hour ago, Guest Enquire said:

in the same way a minority of Shias claim can be done with Hz Abbas? 

Whether it is babul hawa'ij or bab-e-madinatul ilm, majority of people have problems with all the concept of abwaab. I have no problem with any of them as long as their authorities are considered God given and have ahadith of Ahlul Bayt (asws) in favor of it.

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10 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

:bismillah:

وَمَنْ يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ مِنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَاءِ وَالصَّالِحِينَ ۚ وَحَسُنَ أُولَٰئِكَ رَفِيقًا

4:69

Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) is Abdus-Swaleh, Shaheed as well as a Siddiq. If you ask me how Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) is superior, I would say because he sacrificed his life as well as adornment of this worldly life (zenat-e-hayat-e-duniya) in nusrat-e-haqq I.e., in helping the one who is the bearer of the minniyat of Rasool Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). I hope that it was a wish of Prophet Isa ((عليه السلام)) to be among those who helped Imam Hussain ((عليه السلام)) and sacrificed their lives for him.

 

Now in view of just the Bil Quwa and Bil Fael do you see that you and others might have misunderstood as in your view above and some others in defense. 

Ask any learned scholar rather than that Lahori Qiyas filled Hafiz Tassaduq Hussain. 

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21 minutes ago, haideriam said:

Now in view of just the Bil Quwa and Bil Fae

What bil quwa and bil fe'l? What sre you talking about brother?

 

21 minutes ago, haideriam said:

do you see that you and others might have misunderstood as in your view above and some others in defense. 

If you're talking with reference to the verse 4:69 and trying to question why I have used it as reference here, let me know and I will explain. Although if you just go back and read my responses you would probably not require any explanation.

Perhaps you need to see the translation of this verse:

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 69:

وَمَن يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَاءِ وَالصَّالِحِينَ وَحَسُنَ أُولَٰئِكَ رَفِيقًا

And whoever obeys Allah and the Apostle, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the Prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they! (English - Shakir) 

Edited by Salsabeel

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3 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

What bil quwa and bil fe'l? What sre you talking about brother?

Did you understand the Bil Quwa and Bil Fael in that speech and the degree of it's possession.  (hidden/latent or apparent)

3 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

If you're talking with reference to the verse 4:69 and trying to question why I have used it as reference here, let me know and I will explain. Although if you just go back and read my responses you would probably not require any explanation.

My brother this is a very dangerous practice to try and gather meaning from single verse or hadith and draw conjectural inference from there. 

This is the reason I asked you to ask some truly learned scholar. 

Maybe brother @Ibn al-Hussain might be able to help us. 

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1 minute ago, haideriam said:

My brother this is a very dangerous practice to try and gather meaning from single verse or hadith and draw conjectural inference from there. 

This is the reason I asked you to ask some truly learned scholar. 

I am doing nothing, this verse is not mutashabeh. I am not interpreting anything nor extrapolating anything out of this verse. 

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 69:

وَمَن يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَاءِ وَالصَّالِحِينَ وَحَسُنَ أُولَٰئِكَ رَفِيقًا

And whoever obeys Allah and the Apostle, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the Prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they! (English - Shakir) 

Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) has indeed obeyed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Apostle (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). He is a shaheed, Abdus-saleh and siddiq as well. He is among those upon whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed in'am as mentioned in the verse above.

Do you have any problem in this statement? If yes, what?

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8 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I have asked from you to tell me what reason you have for calling him "mowla". 

I could have asked you to explain this further first but maybe after what I state you will probably give me your understanding as well.

It is the nearness to the absolute in the vertical realm and from there the lower is in need of the one above. 

It means that their is a hierarchy in which Isa(عليه السلام), Ruh Allah,  an Ulil Azm Prophet is even further above and closer to the true reality. 

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6 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I am doing nothing, this verse is not mutashabeh. I am not interpreting anything nor extrapolating anything out of this verse. 

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 69:

وَمَن يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَاءِ وَالصَّالِحِينَ وَحَسُنَ أُولَٰئِكَ رَفِيقًا

And whoever obeys Allah and the Apostle, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the Prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they! (English - Shakir) 

Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) has indeed obeyed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Apostle (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). He is a shaheed, Abdus-saleh and siddiq as well. He is among those upon whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed in'am as mentioned in the verse above.

Do you have any problem in this statement? If yes, what?

My brother to try and portray this as some sort of superiority of  Abbas(عليه السلام) above Isa(عليه السلام)

Do you understand the Bil Quwa and Bil Fael.

Edited by haideriam

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4 minutes ago, haideriam said:

My brother to try and portray this as some sort of superiority of  Abbas(عليه السلام) above Isa(عليه السلام)

I do understand bil quwah & bil fe'l.

Apparently, as I mentioned earlier, it is his fazeelat that he has helped Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Apparently, you cannot give any example where Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) has helped Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or the bearer of his minniyat.

If you have any example, plz share

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16 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

 

وَمَن يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَاءِ وَالصَّالِحِينَ وَحَسُنَ أُولَٰئِكَ رَفِيقًا

And whoever obeys Allah and the Apostle, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the Prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they! (English - Shakir) 

I think you're not reading the verse carefully. I have highlighted its parts 

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