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In the Name of God بسم الله
Guest abduzahra

waseelah of mary and jesus

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15 minutes ago, 786:) said:

So do you believe Hazrat Hamza is greater than Prophet Isa too?

Don't try to twist words Reformist. I have just mentioned a single superiority of Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام), which I hope would be the wish of Hazrat Esa (عليه السلام)

He was a helper of Allah & His Prophet, And I have used the word "bearer of the minniyat of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)", Now lets see another verse:

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ النَّبِيِّينَ لَمَا آتَيْتُكُمْ مِنْ كِتَابٍ وَحِكْمَةٍ ثُمَّ جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُصَدِّقٌ لِمَا مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهِ وَلَتَنْصُرُنَّهُ ۚ قَالَ أَأَقْرَرْتُمْ وَأَخَذْتُمْ عَلَىٰ ذَٰلِكُمْ إِصْرِي ۖ قَالُوا أَقْرَرْنَا ۚ قَالَ فَاشْهَدُوا وَأَنَا مَعَكُمْ مِنَ الشَّاهِدِينَ
3:81 When Allah made (His) covenant with the Prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him.

Prophet Esa (عليه السلام) has not yet helped Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), he will be counted as a helper of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) when he will aid the bearer of the minniyat of Prophet, I.e., Imam Mehdi (ajtf) when he appear after ending of his ghaybah.

Edited by Salsabeel

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On 11/17/2018 at 9:28 PM, Guest abduzahra said:

and beg her to grant them 

In Tawassul we should not believe that this saint can grant on his or her own. But they are closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and therefore their prayers are more likely to be answered.

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"The value of those martyred at Karbala is that they defended the sanctum of Truth in the most difficult conditions one can ever imagine." (Ayatullah Khamenei)
http://english.Khamenei.ir/news/4787/Hazrat-Abbas-s-as-nobility-arose-from-loyalty-to-Truth-in-difficult

 

Edited by Salsabeel

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1 hour ago, 786:) said:

Your opinion is simply emotional.

:hahaha: I can see how it is getting difficult for you to digest one single superiority of Hazrat Abbas ibn Ali (عليه السلام) 

Let it be emotional as I am a person who has been blessed with emotions. 

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1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

Don't try to twist words Reformist. I have just mentioned a single superiority of Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام), which I hope would be the wish of Hazrat Esa (عليه السلام)

He was a helper of Allah & His Prophet, And I have used the word "bearer of the minniyat of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)", Now lets see another verse:

Let’s see what words I twisted:

2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) is Abdus-Swaleh, Shaheed as well as a Siddiq. If you ask me how Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) is superior, I would say because he sacrificed his life as well as adornment of this worldly life (zenat-e-hayat-e-duniya) in nusrat-e-haqq I.e., in helping the one who is the bearer of the minniyat of Rasool Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

You clearly stated Hazrat Abbas is superior because of his efforts in Karbala. So off that premise all 72 are superior to Isa. Based off that I asked if Hazrat Hamza is superior too because he is closer to the Holy Prophet.

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3 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:hahaha: I can see how it is getting difficult for you to digest one single superiority of Hazrat Abbas ibn Ali (عليه السلام) 

Let it be emotional as I am a person who has been blessed with emotions. 

I have a problem digesting bias which is crystal clear here. You have a problem saying Hz Hamza is greater than Isa but no issue saying Hz Abbas is greater than Isa. Ironically, Hz Hamza is greater than Hz Abbas.

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2 minutes ago, 786:) said:

You clearly stated Hazrat Abbas is superior because of his efforts in Karbala. So off that premise all 72 are superior to Isa.

Yes this is "apparently" the fazeelat of all the martyrs of Karbala that they have sacrificed their lives & worldly adornment in helping Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

Would you say that Prophet Esa (عليه السلام) has ever helped the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or any Imam who is the bearer of the minniyat of Prophet?  

 

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3 minutes ago, 786:) said:

You have a problem saying Hz Hamza is greater than Isa but no issue saying Hz Abbas is greater than Isa.

No I have no problem at all. Hazrat Hamza also got this fazeelat of helping the Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and sacrificing his life for Haqq

 

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Jafer-e-Tayyar also got the same fazeelat. And as per verse of chapter 4 quoted earlier, they all are the ones upon whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed the in'aam may he be a nabi, shaheed, swaleh, siddiq. Because they obeyed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His Apostle (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and sacrificed their lives in the "nusrat" which is obligatory on all the Prophets as per the verse of "Meethaq" (3:81)

Edited by Salsabeel

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17 minutes ago, 786:) said:

I have a problem digesting bias which is crystal clear here.

I think I have removed all which looked "bias" to you. :) 

Can you deny that all the martyrs of Karbala have not sacrificed their lives in nusrat-e-haqq and never helped Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? 
Can you give a single example when Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) helped Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? 

If you are unable to give the answer of above two questions, you need to accept this one deed of all the martyrs whether he be the martyr of Karbala or the martyr of Badr or Uhod as their fazeelat over the one who has not yet got this opportunity. 

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54 minutes ago, 786:) said:

I have a problem digesting bias which is crystal clear here. You have a problem saying Hz Hamza is greater than Isa but no issue saying Hz Abbas is greater than Isa. Ironically, Hz Hamza is greater than Hz Abbas.

It’s not just about closeness but also about insight Hz Hamza (رضي الله عنه)  & Jafar Tatar (رضي الله عنه) didn’t has Hz Abbas insight and didn’t test with acceptance of  Imamate  & majority of 72 Martyrs of Karbala joined Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) from start of his journey till last day & they have some errors in their life but Hz Abbas was in peak of insight & obeying his Imam of time that although he was a normal person but never had doubt about obeying his Imam & never made a mistake from childhood but rest of martyrs faced sometimes doubts & misunderstanding about Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) .

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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25 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I think I have removed all which looked "bias" to you. :) 

Can you deny that all the martyrs of Karbala have not sacrificed their lives in nusrat-e-haqq and never helped Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? 
Can you give a single example when Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) helped Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? 

If you are unable to give the answer of above two questions, you need to accept this one deed of all the martyrs whether he be the martyr of Karbala or the martyr of Badr or Uhod as their fazeelat over the one who has not yet got this opportunity. 

Originally, you made the claim that Hz Abbas was superior to Hz Isa because of his efforts in Karbala. Then when I called you out for this claim, you reshuffled your words to make it appear that you only meant he was superior in this one regard. Nice save.

No one is denying the efforts and sacrifices of those who gave their lives in the name of Islam. This however, doesnt justify their superiority over one of the best creations of Allah.

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6 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It’s not just about closeness but also about insight Hz Hamza (رضي الله عنه)  & Jafar Tatar (رضي الله عنه) didn’t has Hz Abbas insight and didn’t test with acceptance of  Imamate  & majority of 72 Martyrs of Karbala joined Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) from start of his journey till last day & they have some errors in their life but Hz Abbas was in peak of insight & obeying his Imam of time that although he was a normal person but never had doubt about obeying his Imam & never made a mistake from childhood but rest of martyrs faced sometimes doubts & misunderstanding about Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) .

brother..what are you talking about? Insight? Hz Hamza was there with the Prophet at the infancy of Islam. Hz Hamza and Imam Ali defended the Holy Prophet when only a handful of people believed in him. What more insight is there than that? You are just making things up to defend your biases.

Are you saying Hz Hamza had doubts on obeying the Prophet?

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45 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Originally, you made the claim that Hz Abbas was superior to Hz Isa because of his efforts in Karbala.

Lets see the full post once again, I have only mentioned one fazeelat of Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) (although there are others too which I don't want to discuss with you):

4 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

:bismillah:

وَمَنْ يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ مِنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَاءِ وَالصَّالِحِينَ ۚ وَحَسُنَ أُولَٰئِكَ رَفِيقًا

4:69

Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) is Abdus-Swaleh, Shaheed as well as a Siddiq. If you ask me how Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) is superior, I would say because he sacrificed his life as well as adornment of this worldly life (zenat-e-hayat-e-duniya) in nusrat-e-haqq I.e., in helping the one who is the bearer of the minniyat of Rasool Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). I hope that it was a wish of Prophet Isa ((عليه السلام)) to be among those who helped Imam Hussain ((عليه السلام)) and sacrificed their lives for him.

 

And now you seems as you're agreed with this argument :)

 

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Wasila vs worship ; Tawassul used by the Imams 

46 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Are you saying Hz Hamza had doubts on obeying the Prophet?

No , I said about 72 martyrs some of them like as Zubairis Ibn Qain (رضي الله عنه) & Hurr (رضي الله عنه) were in opposition of Imam (عليه السلام) & few of martyrs joined to Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) from army of enemy in last day  but Hz Abbas (رضي الله عنه) life was clear like as cristal & you don’t read carefully I said Hz Hamza (رضي الله عنه) & Hz jafar didn’t test with Imamate but if they  were alive ,they  would accept Imamate of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) & rest of Imams (عليه السلام) but Hz Abbas (رضي الله عنه) story has another point that Imam Ali(عليه السلام) chose a wife that her child would defend Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) & story of his life before birth  was for protection Imamate specially Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) 

 

 

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49 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Then when I called you out for this claim, you reshuffled your words to make it appear that you only meant he was superior in this one regard. Nice save

:D nothing has been shuffled by me reformist.

49 minutes ago, 786:) said:

This however, doesnt justify their superiority over one of the best creations of Allah.

Khayrul Bariyyah!!! Do you know who are they?

Surah Al-Bayyina, Verse 7:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ أُولَٰئِكَ هُمْ خَيْرُ الْبَرِيَّةِ

(As for) those who believe and do good, surely they are the -best of men. (English - Shakir) 

What is the best of the deed which can be considered as وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ?

That which was done by Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) in Karbala.

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15 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:D nothing has been shuffled by me reformist.

Okay so let me ask you point blank without these grammatical gymnastics. Who is superior Hz Abbas or Hz Isa?

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