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In the Name of God بسم الله
2Timeless

Man acquitted of raping 17 year old in Ireland

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1 minute ago, Aflower said:

Going back to the original case, there are also incidences where women have consented, felt guilty, and then tried to put the blame on the man as they can't deal with the guilt. In the case of the trial being discussed by the sister, I don't believe that there is any evidence directly implicating the man. On what basis does the sister believe that he is guilty? Feelings and gut instincts alone? That's wrong, no? Generalising and always blaming the man in rape cases is wrong too, no?

I edited my post after I wrote it so perhaps you could refresh the page and look at the second paragraph. I can't know what Timeless is thinking, but my impression would be that she's considering it to be a criminal act based on the fact that a choice of underwear is not consent so if that is what is being used as proof of consent, then the man would be guilty, as I stated earlier.

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Sisters, I am a woman who has gone to University in the UK. I have heard of incidents where girls have teased guys, lured the guys in, gone all the way. The morning after they are riddled with guilt because they feel 'cheap' and 'dirty' after the hangover effects have worn off. They then blame the guy. I've even seen muslim women behave this way. Girls in the UK lose their virginity, in some cases, when they are as young as 11. 

@Maryam is correct. When did I say otherwise? My point here is ONLY that I'm a firm believer of 'innocent until proven guilty'. This guy isn't a serial rapist that one can automatically assume that he must be guilty.

Personally I think that accusing someone without any CONCLUSIVE evidence is very unislamic.

Edited by Aflower
Removed comment about mod.

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3 minutes ago, Aflower said:

Sisters, I am a woman who has gone to University in the UK.

Lol, quite irrelevant here. So am I, and I'm doing a course very relevant to this case, and what?

4 minutes ago, Aflower said:

his guy isn't a serial rapist that one can automatically assume that he must be guilty. 

So, unless you're a serial killer or serial rapist, we need to agree with such silly defence arguments? My initial issue with this case was that the judge stated that the girl's underwear was what signified consent. The judge did not state that there was consent in this case because of any other reason. It was because of the underwear the girl was wearing in an alley for crying out loud! Secondly, no one assumed he was guilty immediately. Most of us have read the case facts, and have arrived to a conclusion based on those facts. 

7 minutes ago, Aflower said:

Personally I think that accusing someone without any CONCLUSIVE evidence is very unislamic

Unfortunately, a lot of legal practice does not rely on conclusive evidence. Rape is very difficult to prove. Does that mean we declare all alleged rapists innocent until proven guilty? By that logic, we will have serial rapists roaming the streets and raping every other woman they see. No one is denying that some rape charges are baseless. On the other hand, we also have genuine rape cases that get disregarded. We cannot ignore such cases because of the few (or maybe even many) bad apples. 

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3 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

Lol, quite irrelevant here. So am I, and I'm doing a course very relevant to this case, and what?

So, unless you're a serial killer or serial rapist, we need to agree with such silly defence arguments? My initial issue with this case was that the judge stated that the girl's underwear was what signified consent. The judge did not state that there was consent in this case because of any other reason. It was because of the underwear the girl was wearing in an alley for crying out loud! Secondly, no one assumed he was guilty immediately. Most of us have read the case facts, and have arrived to a conclusion based on those facts. 

Unfortunately, a lot of legal practice does not rely on conclusive evidence. Rape is very difficult to prove. Does that mean we declare all alleged rapists innocent until proven guilty? By that logic, we will have serial rapists roaming the streets and raping every other woman they see. No one is denying that some rape charges are baseless. On the other hand, we also have genuine rape cases that get disregarded. We cannot ignore such cases because of the few (or maybe even many) bad apples. 

Dearest Sister, I have a different take and I won't elaborate on it as this post will become a circular argument.  Let's just respect that we view things from a different perspective. 

Edited by Aflower

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4 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

 My initial issue with this case was that the judge stated that the girl's underwear was what signified consent. The judge did not state that there was consent in this case because of any other reason.

So, having read a bit more of the coverage, it seems the judge didn't agree to that. The defence lawyer was the one who brought up this argument in her closing remarks and the jury found the defendant not guilty. As far as we know, the judge never agreed to this argument and maybe the jurors didn't either, and were relying on something else for their judgement. In all fairness, I also made the same mistake in my first post on this thread.

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12 minutes ago, Aflower said:

Dearest Sister, I have a different take and I won't elaborate on it as this post will become a circular argument.  Let's just respect that we view things from a different perspective. 

Just sounds like you don't want to have this debate, or just have no response, which is quite sad, I'd have liked to see exactly what it is you disagreed with. Unfortunate. 

@Khadim uz Zahra in that case, i apologise for the inaccuracy. I had an issue with the defence's argument of consent being indicated by the underwear the victim was wearing. 

Edited by 2Timeless

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53 minutes ago, Aflower said:

Going back to the original case, there are also incidences where women have consented, felt guilty, and then tried to put the blame on the man as they can't deal with the guilt. In the case of the trial being discussed by the sister, I don't believe that there is any evidence directly implicating the man. On what basis does the sister believe that he is guilty? Feelings and gut instincts alone? That's wrong, no? Generalising and always blaming the man in rape cases is wrong too, no?

The accusation of rape is always one that elicits an emotional response.
 
There are definitely fake cases of rape put forward by people for a variety of reasons, including as part of a political agenda.  Could list some but would just derail this more! 
 
However,  the system is set so that the accused gets benefit of the doubt.  You have to prove guilt or prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to get a verdict.  He said / she said does not lead to proof.  So, the court needs to rely on independent witnesses, CCTV footage, or maybe a badly beaten (or dead) body with DNA evidence.  
 
Many who are guilty can be acquitted or can be, due to lack of evidence (the big issue here), plead out on lesser charges.  This is to keep our system fair for the innocent but for real victims may lead to emotional distress and sense of betrayal from the system.
 
How many women (or men) do you know who would lay charges after being raped?  Studies I have read in the past say 1 in 10. My opinion is that is an overestimate. I am not sure that I would come forward.  It is hard enough to deal with the trauma without initiating another one - one that may become very public.
 
And on the other side, an innocent person who has been charged with rape, and is subsequently acquitted, is still seen as guilty by some.... by enough people to impact their life in a negative way.
 
Don't know what the system can do to improve this.  No matter what the verdict there is always doubt.

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32 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

Just sounds like you don't want to have this debate, or just have no response, which is quite sad, I'd have liked to see exactly what it is you disagreed with. Unfortunate. 

@Khadim uz Zahra in that case, i apologise for the inaccuracy. I had an issue with the defence's argument of consent being indicated by the underwear the victim was wearing. 

Sister your response is very immature. I have already said what I have to say on the matter. I don't need to prove my viewpoint to anyone and this will be my last comment on THIS post. If you see it as being your personal victory to have the last word, or to post the last comment, so be it. Good luck to you.

Frankly, I thought what @Khadim uz Zahrahas just written was common sense and already known to all. In any case, he sumed up this matter perfectly and it was actually a nice way to end this debate. Hence, I will paste his quote below: 

36 minutes ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

As far as we know, the judge never agreed to this argument and maybe the jurors didn't either, and were relying on something else for their judgement. 

 

Edited by Aflower

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@Aflower lol, I'm sorry dearest sister, I didn't mean to get you so triggered! It is now immature to be genuinely interested in an oh-so-knowledgeable individual's viewpoint. I didn't know that that's the common sense of your generation. I'm ever so sorry. I advise you to handle losing an argument a little better than you are now, it doesn't look to great for you to be so offended that someone is simply arguing their point in a respectful manner. Common sense dictates that you reciprocate that respect, otherwise you simply lose respect for yourself. May Allah lengthen your temper and keep you on the right path, dear sister.

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Bismehe Ta3ala,

Asssalam Alikum.

I learned from Surat Yousif how Zulikha tried to seduce Nabe Yousif 3la salam and when her husband came and saw what was happening she blamed Nabe Yousif 3la salam.

There are many cases where the woman seduces the man and then later calls the police and falsely says she was raped.  I hope our Muslim brothers are smart not to sleep around with loose unchaste women and choose instead the sacred institution of marriage.  Allah swt protect us from the wlad al haram!

And do look at what she is wearing!  Hook line and sinker.  wal 3yadhu bil Allah

Viewer discretion is advised!

 

 

 

Edited by Laayla

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5 hours ago, alidu78 said:

 What I said is that men and women must take their responsibilities and wear correct clothes.  

 

2 hours ago, monad said:

 I still blame the 17year old.

She went out on a date with an older guy and decided to dress in a particular way to be more appealing. She clearly was not wear those items by it self, so something led him to believe she was seducing him, and that were his signals to follow through.

Leaving aside the particulars of this case, in Ireland women are allowed to wear what they like and men are not allowed rape anyone under any circumstances. It is clear and there is no confusion about it. This case is controversial because, at least as it has been presented, it challenged this simple common sense assumption. Men are responsible for their own behavior.

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4 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

Victim blaming will not really allow me to read the rest of your post and actually take anything you say seriously. Women do not want it both ways. Some men just keep looking for ways to excuse disgusting and beastly behaviour. You can keep posting incredibly insensitive and offensive things, just know nothing you say will be held in high regard at all. Please rethink the things you've said. 

I appreciate the imitative adult response, however it is nothing but manipulative.

Leaving aside the particulars of this case, in Ireland women are allowed to wear what they like and men are not allowed rape anyone under any circumstances. It is clear and there is no confusion about it. This case is controversial because, at least as it has been presented, it challenged this simple common sense assumption. Men are responsible for their own behavior.

It seems using rational isn't a strong point here. This is not about dress code but the new papers have made it as that. A particular point as been used as the main discourse of claiming the not guilty point. Clearly the evidence in court was in favor of the man, and knowing if the public had such evidence they too would probably side with the male. I suggest you take your nonsensical associative bias regarding the freedom of western idealism regarding the liberties of females to do what they will and what want somewhere it has tangible value. A social club setting might entail, I hear at the local Irish bar  must be a great insight for wild life anthropologists.

If men must be responsible then so must women. I do not see anyone stating the obvious as written early. What made her think it was okay to date a guy 10 years older then her. The age of consent in Ireland is 17.

For all we know she felt guilty for what she did and the only way to save face was to accuse someone for rape. Again none of us have evidence.

Edited by monad

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4 hours ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

Secondly, even if they were sleeping in a shared bed and she was in her underwear, why would you want to have sex with someone while she's sleeping and not even aware of what's happening? It's just not right

dude,  It was a video next to the article, probably on the Irish post. Remove it if you want. I am not going to google it just for this. Thanks.

to edit : if the pants were being used as evidence or being used as coercive evidence, then there must be validity for it being used. It does not matter what age anyone is in there, the objective is justice. Find the truth. Ohh please don't wave that knife I used to kill  or used for killing, I find it offensive?. We can clearly see, the females are barraging on feelings as there is nothing else to actually grasp. It is a court, what do they expect to happen in there?. You have lawyers whose main objective is to defend and attack.

Edited by monad

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@monad you do realise that what you're saying isn't only immoral but it's also un-islamic right? Harming another individual, no matter how much they provoke you is haram. Simple as. If the girl was committing haram by wearing revealing clothes, it's upto Allah to punish her. Not you or me, or a rapist. 

As for your comments about the girl taking responsibility...how many times does it need to be said that men are not animals? I'm pretty sure alot of the gentlemen here have been provoked many, many times. I don't think many of them are rapists. Why? Because they are not animals who cannot control themselves. Men are humans. They have control over their thoughts, desires and actions. 

Yes, a woman can influence said thoughts, desires and actions. But that's as far as it can get. Men have the final say in what they do/commit. 

You are right that some men are falsely accused of rape, which is horrible. I can't imagine what a detrimental experience that would be for them. But just because some men are falsely accused of rape, that shouldn't undermine the more believable cases. This case does not involve a teenager who sleeps with a man while drunk and regrets it the next morning, so goes to court for it. This is a case where the victim was allegedly raped in a "dirty alleyway" by a man 10 years older than her. One of the arguments presented by the defence was that her underwear indicated consent. Seriously? Of all things, the type of undergarments she wore indicate her consent???

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@monad Stop blaming the girl for the guy's disgusting actions. Regardless of anything, rape is not acceptable at all. I have heard of many stories where guys do all disgusting things with girls who sleep. If she wears a niqab, hijab or is fully nude, it literally should make no difference. Even if she dated someone older than her, a guy has no right to rape her. 

The fact that the lawyer even considered using the "underwear" to defend the rapist is literally shocking. It means - had the woman not worn an underwear, she would not have been raped. Just put aside your emotions for a second, it's not a debate or anything, you really need to rethink what you've said.

Why do you always try to be different for the sake of having an alternative point of view? Let's all shame these rapists and be firm against them. Islam tells us that we should show compassion to a woman. It literally goes against the Quran for a man to even consider using force during sexual Intercourse.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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42 minutes ago, monad said:

I appreciate the imitative adult response, however it is nothing but manipulative.

Leaving aside the particulars of this case, in Ireland women are allowed to wear what they like and men are not allowed rape anyone under any circumstances. It is clear and there is no confusion about it. This case is controversial because, at least as it has been presented, it challenged this simple common sense assumption. Men are responsible for their own behavior.

It seems using rational isn't a strong point here. This is not about dress code but the new papers have made it as that. A particular point as been used as the main discourse of claiming the not guilty point. Clearly the evidence in court was in favor of the man, and knowing if the public had such evidence they too would probably side with the male. I suggest you take your nonsensical associative bias regarding the freedom of western idealism regarding the liberties of females to do what they will and what want somewhere it has tangible value. A social club setting might entail, I hear at the local Irish bar  must be a great insight for wild life anthropologists.

If men must be responsible then so must women. I do not see anyone stating the obvious as written early. What made her think it was okay to date a guy 10 years older then her. The age of consent in Ireland is 17.

For all we know she felt guilty for what she did and the only way to save face was to accuse someone for rape. Again none of us have evidence.

What, in this context, must females be responsible for? My point was not specifically about this case, it was about the women-have-only-themselves-to-blame-when-men-rape-them attitude

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The following is a true story.

A man is at a beach and sees a female in a bikini.  The man catcalls the female.

The female goes and calls her fiance and tells him this man was catcalling her.

Fiance goes to the beach and kills the man.

Take this case at an Islamic court, what would be the ruling of who is at fault?  All of them being Muslim.

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7 hours ago, Laayla said:

The following is a true story.

A man is at a beach and sees a female in a bikini.  The man catcalls the female.

The female goes and calls her fiance and tells him this man was catcalling her.

Fiance goes to the beach and kills the man.

Take this case at an Islamic court, what would be the ruling of who is at fault?  All of them being Muslim.

You keep providing extreme examples of anything relating to women manipulating the system or wearing something inappropriate which lead to a catastrophe. Not all cases are like that. Why not discuss all the tragic cases where innocent rape victims were not believed, and were instead blamed for being violated in the worst way possible. Not all women are evil and manipulative, the same way that not all men are violent animals. 

We need to support rape victims and shame rapists. Of course, in cases where the man has been falsely accused, that is horrendous, but that's not the case all the time. Here for example, the girl was obviously not walking around in her underwear. The guy must have stepped over the line at some point, in a muddy alleyway. 

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This is comical. I tried to find Khadim the video, and I ended up many sites with the same discussions. It all follows the same trend. The females simply cannot not understand the rational points being made. the females seems to change the whole point made into something that is not even related to the subject matter. How is that even possible.:helpsos:

You have taken my responses to infer that I am claiming she was being punished for wearing poor choice of clothing? understand the context.

I suggest some books on anthropology. Desmond Morris - People Watching is a good start.

I will write this in baby language.

She went out dressed provocatively. Why?. Because she has the freedom too?. So are we stating while she was dressing up, she said OHHH, I feel the liberties of this great nation, where I can dress in a short skirt, so that the sun will glim off my newly shaved legs?. I will add a tad bit of cleavage, with extra perfume, to smell like a lovely garden in paris, and red lipstick, just like the lushes red tulips of Holland.

Duuhhh, all of this is done to for the purpose of attraction. Males do the same. And then they all get together in a setting where they will be in a loud and dark room, drinking alcohol, dancing, all eyeing out the next potential love and having to get very close to each other just to speak. After having their laughs, and in a state of heightened sexual  arousal and intoxication, what do you think hyper will occur?. Someone will be taken advantage off. That is a fact.

So, there is nothing about provocation, especially when seduction is involved. As I have pointed out, the female do not want to comprehend the whole picture, they are whining about under garments being used as a possible coercive evidence, while none of them, even like me know the language of the law.

 

Why do you always try to be different for the sake of having an alternative point of view? Let's all shame these rapists and be firm against them. Islam tells us that we should show compassion to a woman. It literally goes against the Quran for a man to even consider using force during sexual Intercourse.

Bro, seriously. read the above. :hahaha:

It went from rape, to not being rape, too omg, under wear was used as evidence, cant do that in a LAW OF COURT WHERE THE OBJECTIVE IS TO FIND EVIDENCE, think of the victim, this is inferring the male is already a rapist - to now what? monad is stating she deserved it?. :sign_offtopic:

Edited by monad

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