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Arabic Grammar


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On 11/17/2018 at 5:13 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

This is an excellent book series for anyone wishing to come out speaking Arabic (or Modern Standard and Classical Arabic) with a high intermediate proficiency.

Salaam Brother @Ibn Al-Ja'abi, so this Madina course teaches both MSA and classical Arabic? From the quick google searches I’ve done Arabic is divided into 3 categories, there is Classical Arabic, MSA, and then there are the dialects. So from what I found, MSA is really close to the classical version of Arabic but it’s like a modern version of it like the name says lol. So, does this Madina course focus more on one, classical or modern standard, or does it really make a learner proficient at both? 

Also, I read that it’s better to learn MSA first then classical? Is this true? Because MSA is easier and after learning it it’d be easy to learn classical...

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46 minutes ago, AStruggler said:

Salaam Brother, so this Madina course teaches both MSA and classical Arabic? From the quick google searches I’ve done Arabic today is divided into 3 categories, there is Classical Arabic, MSA, and then there are the dialects. So from what I found, MSA is really close to the classical version of Arabic but it’s like a modern version of it like the name says lol. So, does Madina course focus more on one, classical or modern standard, or does it really makes a learner proficient at both? 

Salams,

From what I remember the Madina course is more focused on MSA. That being said it is still very good. You are right that MSA is very similar to classical Arabic in that it tries to maintain as much Classical vocabulary as possible and employs grammatical categories from Classical Arabic which are otherwise phased out in dialects (e.g. duality). Any book teaching MSA worth its salt would give you a solid foundation for Classical Arabic, however you need to keep in mind there are differences. MSA repurposed a lot of vocabulary from classical Arabic in order to avoid importing vocabulary from foreign languages (which does still happen). So you ended up having shura become a parliament rather than a council which elects a Caliph, and the example I always like to give is that Ja'far al-Tayyar ends up becoming Ja'far the pilot rather than Ja'far the winged. There is also a somewhat more simplified sentence structure. You also have a lot of archaic vocabulary in Classical Arabic which doesn't show up in MSA. Overall, if you know MSA well you'll be able to read a Classical Arabic text as long as you have a dictionary near by to look up archaic words and can stand what can be rather baroque sentences at times. You should think of it like a reasonably educated English speaker trying to read English texts written between 1600-1900, you'll be able to especially with practice. I've also added another book (New Arabic Grammar by Haywoord and Nahmad) to the list that I discovered recently, it's a book designed to teach MSA but is incredibly useful for giving you a solid foundation for approaching classical Arabic.

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18 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Salams,

From what I remember the Madina course is more focused on MSA. That being said it is still very good. You are right that MSA is very similar to classical Arabic in that it tries to maintain as much Classical vocabulary as possible and employs grammatical categories from Classical Arabic which are otherwise phased out in dialects (e.g. duality). Any book teaching MSA worth its salt would give you a solid foundation for Classical Arabic, however you need to keep in mind there are differences. MSA repurposed a lot of vocabulary from classical Arabic in order to avoid importing vocabulary from foreign languages (which does still happen). So you ended up having shura become a parliament rather than a council which elects a Caliph, and the example I always like to give is that Ja'far al-Tayyar ends up becoming Ja'far the pilot rather than Ja'far the winged. There is also a somewhat more simplified sentence structure. You also have a lot of archaic vocabulary in Classical Arabic which doesn't show up in MSA. Overall, if you know MSA well you'll be able to read a Classical Arabic text as long as you have a dictionary near by to look up archaic words and can stand what can be rather baroque sentences at times. You should think of it like a reasonably educated English speaker trying to read English texts written between 1600-1900, you'll be able to especially with practice. I've also added another book (New Arabic Grammar by Haywoord and Nahmad) to the list that I discovered recently, it's a book designed to teach MSA but is incredibly useful for giving you a solid foundation for approaching classical Arabic.

I see, thank you!

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On 12/11/2018 at 7:45 PM, AStruggler said:

Salaam brother @ali_fatheroforphans

How’s the progress going?

I'm up to lesson 4 so far - I've memorized all the vocab of the lessons up till now.

If your planning to learn Arabic Grammar too, use the newer Medina book which @Ibn Al-Ja'abi posted - the pictures help a lot.

But yeah, I'm busy with work so don't have that much time as I would've liked. Regardless, you need motivation man, like everyday you need to study Arabic (even if it's for 10-15 min), otherwise you'll go rusty.

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On 12/12/2018 at 3:40 AM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I'm up to lesson 4 so far - I've memorized all the vocab of the lessons up till now.

If your planning to learn Arabic Grammar too, use the newer Medina book which @Ibn Al-Ja'abi posted - the pictures help a lot.

But yeah, I'm busy with work so don't have that much time as I would've liked. Regardless, you need motivation man, like everyday you need to study Arabic (even if it's for 10-15 min), otherwise you'll go rusty.

Wow that’s good. I have some things I’m busy with rn but yeah I really hope to learn in some time iA, hopefully soon. 

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On 11/17/2018 at 5:13 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Salams

....

Any chance you can give a link to some of the online material like the Readers? I've searched online but none of them are available to download for free apart from the Kalilah wa Dimna (which looks like it is all in Arabic - I was hoping for an Arabic English book)

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11 hours ago, gajarkahalva said:

Any chance you can give a link to some of the online material like the Readers? I've searched online but none of them are available to download for free apart from the Kalilah wa Dimna (which looks like it is all in Arabic - I was hoping for an Arabic English book)

Salams,

Here's a link to the Ibn Battuta one. You can also find these MSA readers to download from Library Genesis: Routledge's reader for advanced Modern Standard and a reader for elementary MSA. These are alright, nothing to write home about though. There's also a reader for Classical Arabic, but it's a bit old school, I prefer the Classical Arabic reader I recommend, however this isn't the worst thing you could use, don't like how the annotations are done. Then there's Chaim Rabin's reader which is on archive.org. I do like this reader, it's a good introduction to various pieces of literature in MSA and gives you a good variety of passages to read.

Unfortunately the Kalila wa Dimna reader doesn't seem to be online. It also is an annotated reader as opposed to a bilingual reader. I personally am a fan of annotated readers wherein you can translate the text yourself with new or difficult vocabulary or phrases being noted by the author, you'll also get a feel of reading books on your own this way. You also need to see if the translations in Bilingual readers are literal or more stylized, for a reader you'd want a more literal rendering of the sentence.

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10 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Salams,

Here's a link to the Ibn Battuta one. You can also find these MSA readers to download from Library Genesis: Routledge's reader for advanced Modern Standard and a reader for elementary MSA. These are alright, nothing to write home about though. There's also a reader for Classical Arabic, but it's a bit old school, I prefer the Classical Arabic reader I recommend, however this isn't the worst thing you could use, don't like how the annotations are done. Then there's Chaim Rabin's reader which is on archive.org. I do like this reader, it's a good introduction to various pieces of literature in MSA and gives you a good variety of passages to read.

Unfortunately the Kalila wa Dimna reader doesn't seem to be online. It also is an annotated reader as opposed to a bilingual reader. I personally am a fan of annotated readers wherein you can translate the text yourself with new or difficult vocabulary or phrases being noted by the author, you'll also get a feel of reading books on your own this way. You also need to see if the translations in Bilingual readers are literal or more stylized, for a reader you'd want a more literal rendering of the sentence.

Jazakallah Khair for this. Really appreciate the time you took to give me the links. 

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On 11/17/2018 at 10:13 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Wightwick and Gaafar's Arabic Verb Tenses (McGraw Hill) -- This only concerns itself with you learning MSA, but it'll teach you verbs very well. There's two other works on Arabic vocabulary and on pronouns and prepositions that are also good but this is the best between them.

Thanks just pre-ordered the 2nd edition of this, out on 1st Feb 2019.

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On 1/2/2019 at 12:19 PM, Don'tMakeA١٠١س said:

@Ibn Al-Ja'abi what do you think of the al-Kitaab fii Ta'allum al-'Arabiyya textbooks that are typically used in introductory Arabic classrooms? Are they outdated? I noticed you didn't mention them in your list.

Salams,

The books I mentioned are ones I've used or examined myself in depth. I have seen the second volume of al-Kitaab and it's an alright book, but it's scope is to teach you the Arabic of educated Egyptians. It's great for what it is but my recommendations cover books on Classical Arabic and Modern Standard Arabic.

On 1/2/2019 at 10:51 AM, Haji 2003 said:

Thanks just pre-ordered the 2nd edition of this, out on 1st Feb 2019.

Good luck, InshaAllah. You can do really well with this book.

Wassalam

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On 12/13/2018 at 1:34 PM, gajarkahalva said:

Jazakallah Khair for this. Really appreciate the time you took to give me the links. 

I'd like to post an update, I did find the Kalila wa Dimna reader. This is an excellent book, give it a try.

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Thanks for your post. I am using it to shame Maryam into using the book and then writing up her experience of it. She says it's similar to the French one she has in the same series. More details from her later.

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4 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Thanks for your post. I am using it to shame Maryam into using the book and then writing up her experience of it. She says it's similar to the French one she has in the same series. More details from her later.

Yes, this is one of the few books which teaches Arabic in more appropriate modern pedagogical ways. I've always thought books like this should be written especially for classical Arabic seeing how hawza students lose hair trying to figure out theoretical Arabic rules and learn Arabic at the same time. It's best, as far as I'm concerned, to teach someone to speak, read, and write Arabic to an intermediate competency and after that introduce them to the complexities of Arabic grammar and its theoretical discussions. I think there is one institution that teaches Arabic like this (though they've moved out of Qom now). Nevertheless, this is very much a book for teaching Modern Standard Arabic but I believe it should give you a very good foundation for working in Classical Arabic (since all the verbs of MSA are found in CA, but CA has 6 extra verb stems (ix and xi-xv) not found in MSA dealing basically with verbs of colour and defects -- clearly very rare things). 

If you want to move onto the next level of high intermediate (on the verge of being an advanced learner), check out Haywood and Nahmad. Their grammar is more expensive and the answer key is sold separately but you will have an unparalleled competency in Arabic if you do that work after this one. It'll allow you to have a good foundation for CA and MSA both.

Tell me how you guys find it when you start using it. Very eager to hear other's feedback, I feel like I always sing praises of Arabic Verb Tenses and want to see how justified I am in it lol.

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