Jump to content
313 Seeker

Things God can't Do?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Just now, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

This sentence itself is limiting the 'GOD'. Don't do it. 

Saying He can't limit Himself is limiting Him?

Can God eat? Sleep? Lie? Create another God? Create Himself? Become a human? Be seen and imagined by the human mind?

"The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food." (5:75)

The Quran is making a logical argument here: since Mary and Jesus ate food, they cannot be God, because God has no food or no sustenance without ceasing to be God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Allah had intended to take a son, He could have chosen from what He creates whatever He willed. Exalted is He; He is Allah, the One, the Prevailing. 39:4

Say, "If the Most Merciful had a son, then I would be the first of worshippers." 43:81

According to the above God can turn a worm into His son, and we'd have to worship it! That's creating another God isn't it? @Qa'im

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

If Allah had intended to take a son, He could have chosen from what He creates whatever He willed. Exalted is He; He is Allah, the One, the Prevailing. 39:4

Say, "If the Most Merciful had a son, then I would be the first of worshippers." 43:81

According to the above God can turn a worm into His son, and we'd have to worship it! That's creating another God isn't it? @Qa'im

That'd be polytheism, lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The crux of the thread, I think comes down to paganism vs monotheism (or even....pantheism). The question makes more sense within the pagan concept of deity ('gods') rather than the transcendent monotheistic doctrine of Islam (and our earlier brother of the book, Judaism). God is not a person, anthropomorphizing God is foremost a pagan or polytheistic concept. Then through this, you get myths about these deities ('gods') having adventures and going about their 'lives' like human beings and struggling with stuff (even dying!) - whether ancient Egyptian or Hindu or Greek or so on, it's a similar issue. 

Now, on a social/political level I do think we should be at peace with our pagan friends but really, the central doctrine of Islam is anti-polytheistic. Remember the Kaaba before Islam? hundreds of idols with limited ideas of God, people worshiping their own psychological projections via these idols. 

Osiris can die but does Allah? are really daft enough to put Allah in the same category? 

Edited by HakimPtsid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@HakimPtsid the point is that if God would want fellow Gods,  then He could create them. HE even describes the consequence of the hypothetical situation of a polyrheistic reality to us, painting quite a clear picture of it in the Quran. It's not about the inability of God to make other Gods that stops Him from doing it, but simply the reality that He didn't do it for whatever reason that is beyond us, HE chose not to have any partners, including offspring. 

Our job is to witness the reality, that there is just One God, and He has no partner. And a God Who is absolutely capable of everything that we can possibly imagine from our linguistic imagination, and beyond that too. God has no limits in His abilities. Whatsoever. 

Edited by 313 Seeker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think with this subject, if you get serious about the question it comes down to the question of God's (Allah) absolute-ness and the metaphysics of it, which requires an aspect of mysticism to explore - as we're dealing with a logical interpretation of an abstraction. 

Either, everything originates from a singular point, being God (as I likened in my first post in this thread, to a triangle emanating downwards) - or everything is an amalgamation of the intersection between a possible unlimited amount of points (deities, polytheism), which amounts to order (monotheism) vs chaos (polytheism).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If people think that God can give birth to a son or take son or can do anything which could put him out of the definition which He Himself has described, then its an error itself.

23:91 clearly mentions the consequence. And then 43:82 too:

Surah Az-Zukhruf, Verse 82:
سُبْحَانَ رَبِّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ رَبِّ الْعَرْشِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ

Glory to the Lord of the heavens and the earth, the Lord of power, from what they describe.
(English - Shakir)

By the way, 43:81 do always attract my attention. How Allah (s.w.t) has ordered the ma'sum to "say" (qul)!

They accept that first portion of the verse but where it says "Awwal ul Abideen" they start finding their reasons to refute this divine message.

Edited by Salsabeel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And how easy would it become for anyone to claim that he is a son of god (na'uzobillah), now there will arrive no wahi for refuting his claim. 

If they think their God can speak lies because He can do anything, how poor their mentality is! 

They forgot the verse 3:61

Edited by Salsabeel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@HakimPtsid I reread your quite philosophical 3 posts several times, and even though I like the poetry of them, and agree with some of what you said, I don't agree with some basics. First of all the freemason comparison of God being represented by a top of a Pyramid is not Islamic to me, because God is everywhere. Secondly, discussing Allah's capabilities is not a pagan thing, because in Islam Allah specifically talks about His ability to do everything. He repeatedly mentions how He is capable of all, and also how it is easy for Him. We have no reason to limit Him in any way, or judge where His limitations could be. It takes one to know one, and we are not God.

But it's interesting how people can go against a clear verse where Allah says that He could choose a son for himself, if He wanted. In any case, putting limitations on God is exactly a pagan view in my opinion, even if that limitation is limitation itself, or partnership. Linguistically starting a sentence with "He can not", is already a blasphemous, and disrespectful act. It makes me shocked and appalled. But it does make sense that in a close-to-the-end-times scenario we are living in today, people will tend to turn their human heroes into god's while the only logical and symmetrical belief would be to simultaneously limit and lower the status of the one true God. That's what I see today as a trend, and it is probably how it happened in all pagan religions that were originally monotheistic. Of course over glorifying and praying to the human saints is part of it, as well as ascribing partnership with the "head" God, which seem to be standard routine when it comes to turning monotheism to polytheism. We saw the same thing happen to our Christian brothers! Ironically there are many known hadiths that survived by the Prophet, which predict exactly what is happening - namely that Islam would only exist in name as we approach the end times. Prophesies are definitely happening and, so may God give all His well-meaning creatures merci and patience as we watch those tragedies unfold.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

@HakimPtsid First of all the freemason comparison of God being represented by a top of a Pyramid is not Islamic to me, because God is everywhere.

It's got nothing to do with freemasonry (it's a shape...), I was trying to express the basic idea that God at the top of all existence is the absolute and below God, within God's creation is mankind, the jinn, angels, the heavens etc. We are finite and contradictory but God isn't. If we assign God with human qualities, we restrict God and God's absolute-ness. 

If you are thinking about this topic in human turns (like "Allah's hands and feet" taken literally) then you don't understand what I'm saying. This thread is hypothetical too, we are not saying "God can not", that's utterly ridiculous. This is a semantic confusion that could be avoided.

Edited by HakimPtsid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Secondly, discussing Allah's capabilities is not a pagan thing, because in Islam Allah specifically talks about His ability to do everything.

No discussing it doesn't but associating anthropomorphic qualities, is the thing that separates (what should be) pure Monotheism from pagan Polytheism. Allah doesn't beget, nor is it begotten. There is no God but God (Allah). 

This kind of thinking is the very foundation of Islam. The idea of the only God having a son, is a Christian idea. The idea of "gods" (deities) being humanistic beings in another realm that control and guide our world, is polytheistic. 

 

And I agree with your comment about people that admire/praise the saints too much, that's pure idolatry. 

Edited by HakimPtsid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are more than one LA in Ayatul Kursi. LA is a negation, I am wondering how ridiculous is this ideolgy which puts blasphemy & disrespect stuff on believers!!

 

اللّهُ لاَ إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ

Now there are reasons given for this LA

الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ 

Why there is no God but Allah, because He is Al-Haye-ul-Qaiyyum, pure absolute existence. He cannot cease to exist.

Next is the reason of His pure & absolute existence:

لاَ تَأْخُذُهُ سِنَةٌ وَلاَ نَوْمٌ 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/16/2018 at 10:18 PM, Sumerian said:

So God can create a stone He cannot lift?

Wouldn't that contradict "qadirun ala kul shay" - because He now supposedly can't lift a stone and is now limited? 

This is basically; can God limit Himself.

Sayed Munir Al-Khabaz has a short video on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv9NrRb07rE

Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has power over all things. That doesn't mean the answer is "yes" to every question "can Allah x?" where x is any possible combination of words, even if self-contradicting. A rock that he can not lift is not a thing. It's just a nonsensical combination of words that are contradictory and have no manifest reality.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Proof that Allah is capable of everything you can imagine, utter, think of, including the above supposed impossibilities:

 

God A: 

- A God who can do everything and can:

limit Himself, create something He can't lift, create a son, create other Gods, etc.

 

God B:

- A God who can do a limited amount of things, and can't:

limit Himself, create something He can't lift, create a son, create other Gods, etc.

 

God A is greater than God B, because God A can do more than God B, is more capable, and truly unlimited in His abilities. 

Allahu Akbar (Allah is Greater), Therefore Allah is God A.

 

Next question:

How can a God be unlimited, if He makes himself not be able to lift a stone?

Answer:

A God who can make Himself not lift a stone, is greater than a God who can not even make Himself not be able to lift a stone. God A is one step ahead of God B in capabilities,

..


God, if He choses to make Himself not be able to lift a stone, He can make Himself able to lift it again afterwards (by again willing it through His Word). Anyway, those things are games within the scope of His created time and space, and are actually impossible for us to grasp. But fact is that Allah is capable of everything. And with Allah, everything is truly everything He wants. We don't have the right to limit God, because Allah is unlimited and Allahu Akbar!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/18/2018 at 9:11 AM, HakimPtsid said:

we are not saying "God can not", that's utterly ridiculous. This is a semantic confusion that could be avoided.

:cool:

On 11/18/2018 at 9:27 AM, HakimPtsid said:

And I agree with your comment about people that admire/praise the saints too much, that's pure idolatry. 

:sign_merci:

 

If a person says God can jdkf;ajefiopjewr9049103jril;esjfkld;sjhfkasl; , then the answer is Yes! It doesn't matter what it is or isn't, God is capable of it. 

Thank you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At least let us know the name of that god who can cease to exist, who can commit suicide, speak lies, give birth and take birth, sleep, eat, walk, have wife, become jahil, fani, da'eef, marhoom, za'il etc. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

@Sumerian @Qa'im @ShiaMan14 @Sirius_Bright @Asghar Ali Karbalai @HakimPtsid

Brothers, we have some nice lesseons on touheed going on here. Will you mind participating here?

Brother salsabeel

Thanks for the tag but I see lessons of 'Tawheed' by Moula Ali(asws) which sounds and is very heavenly. Over here normal human beings are discussing on Allah and after one sentence to Qaim I stopped commenting because I am afraid that my 'Aql' is very less to speak/comment on the subject of 'Tawheed'.

I am afraid that I don't cause 'Slip of tongue' on this. I know Allah is 'Ahad' without any counting as per Moula Ali(asws) and I know somebody asking 6th Imam(asws) if your Allah can make another Allah to which he(asws) replied you talk about one another Allah my Allah can make thousands of Allah but they all will remain his makhlooq only (meaning Khaaliq will be one and only).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/18/2018 at 9:11 AM, HakimPtsid said:

like "Allah's hands and feet" taken literally

I am not sure what literal here means, but fact is that if Allah mentions Himself having a Hand, then He has a Hand. If He is describing His Yiad, then He has a Yiad. Even if that Yiad is more than we can imagine or describe. But it's a Yiad. We don't have the right to say that Allah has no Yiad, when He describes a Yiad, a Throne, a Face, a Hand, etc. And notice that I am not interpreting or describing. I am simply repeating words that Allah Himself uses to describe Himself. People tend to remove what Allah says, and invent stuff that Allah didn't say, while claiming He did. The same old story!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

asking 6th Imam(asws) if your Allah can make another Allah to which he(asws) replied you talk about one another Allah my Allah can make thousands of Allah but they all will remain his makhlooq only (meaning Khaaliq will be one and only).

then the next logical question is that if Allah can make Himself inferior to the gods He hypothetically created. And the answer again is that Allah is capable of all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×