Jump to content
Abu Nur

Judging people to Hell or Paradise

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Salaam Aleikum,

These verses clearly show how even the Prophet (as) did not judge the state of previous generation, rather he just said Only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى knows:

He (Fir'aun) said: Then what is the state of the former generations?
He (Musa (as)) said: The knowledge thereof is with my Lord in a book, my Lord errs not, nor does He forget; Qur'an 20:51-52

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Wa Alikum Assalam Wa Rahamah brother

What about hoping to reach heaven or wishing others heaven?

@Abu Nur

And wishing others jahanam?  The tyrants, tagoot, the three before Amir al Mo2mineen.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

 

Edited by Laayla

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

And wishing others jahanam?  The tyrants, tagoot, the three before Amir al Mo2mineen.

The Du'a of Musa (as) is very good example for this, this is after all the proof have been giving while they denied all:

And Moses said, "Our Lord, indeed You have given Pharaoh and his establishment splendor and wealth in the worldly life, our Lord, that they may lead [men] astray from Your way. Our Lord, obliterate their wealth and harden their hearts so that they will not believe until they see the painful punishment." 10:88

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brother @ali_fatheroforphans

Do you mean to say the mercy of Allah?  Because it is better to ask Allah swt by His mercy and not by His Justice.

I am not the type to say normal people will go to hell.  I'm referring to the oppressors, tyrants, people who possess power and abuse their position.

The so called leaders who usurped Sayyida Fatymah and denyed Imam 3li 's wilayah.

To them 2illa jahnam wa b2sal maseer.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN ALAH

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Laayla said:

you mean to say the mercy of Allah?  Because it is better to ask Allah swt by His mercy and not by His Justice.

Thanks for correcting me, yeah we should always rely on the mercy of Allah rather than his justice, because very few can escape punishment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Salaam Aleikum,

These verses clearly show how even the Prophet (as) did not judge the state of previous generation, rather he just said Only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى knows:

He (Fir'aun) said: Then what is the state of the former generations?
He (Musa (as)) said: The knowledge thereof is with my Lord in a book, my Lord errs not, nor does He forget; Qur'an 20:51-52

 

 

What a strange tafsir. He never said "only Allah knows" he said "Allah knows". 

1 hour ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I think it is wrong to condemn a whole sect to hell without even considering the justice of Allah. Unfortunately some radical Shias hold the view that all Sunnis will enter hell regardless.

The authentic narrations tell us only one sect is saved and the rest are in Jahannam, and this is the position of the Shi'a scholars since the ghayba. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

What a strange tafsir. He never said "only Allah knows" he said "Allah knows". 

The authentic narrations tell us only one sect is saved and the rest are in Jahannam, and this is the position of the Shi'a scholars since the ghayba. 

Yeah and 1 Shia sect out of 12 or 13 I believe. So most "groups" of self proclaimed Shia will be frying in hell according to this hadiths. Just claiming to be Shia is no guarantee. The real mumin equally does not take for granted his own destiny of paradise, as he knows that everybody else can be forgiven. It is not up to us to judge, or claim to be ambassadors of Allah's judgment. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Plus, may I add - the group that is said to be saved might be smaller in size than the rest 

 

Lets say the groups of self-proclaimed Shia are of equal size. That means that 8% make it and 92% go to hell. But if we look at history, usually the group of good guys is smaller in number than the bad guys. So that means that more than 9 out of 10 Shia groups (and not specifying what those groups are makes it even scarier) are going to a very not nice place next life. 

The point here is to stay humble and fear Allah while not underestimating God's merci towards others. That's what I believe anyway. 

H14731 –Muhammad Bin yahya,from Ahmad Bin Muhammad Bin Isa, from Ibn Mahboub, from Jameel Bin Salih, from Abu Khalid Al-Kabuly, who has narrated the following:

 

Then he (Abu Ja’far) said: ‘The Jews differed, from after Musa (Moses) and separated into seventy- one sects, one of which will be in the Paradise and seventy sects would be in the Fire. And the Christians separated, from after Isa (Jesus) into seventy-two sects, one of which would be in the Paradise and seventy-one of the sects would be in the Fire. And this community will separate after its Prophet into seventy-three sects. Seventy-two sects would be in the Fire and one sect would be in the Paradise. And from these seventy-three sects, thirteen would be of those who claim to be in our Wilayah and show affection to us. Twelve sects from these would be in the Fire and one sect would be in the Paradise. And sixty sects from the rest of the people would be in the Fire’.

 

al-Kafi Vol 8 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

What a strange tafsir. He never said "only Allah knows" he said "Allah knows". 

The authentic narrations tell us only one sect is saved and the rest are in Jahannam, and this is the position of the Shi'a scholars since the ghayba. 

Well actually it is only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى who knows and he can share it to Imams (as) etc. If Imam (as) knows then he is not judging if they say person x goes to hell.

Edited by Abu Nur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Yeah and 1 Shia sect out of 12 or 13 I believe. So most "groups" of self proclaimed Shia will be frying in hell according to this hadiths. Just claiming to be Shia is no guarantee. The real mumin equally does not take for granted his own destiny of paradise, as he knows that everybody else can be forgiven. It is not up to us to judge, or claim to be ambassadors of Allah's judgment. 

Yes, they will be frying in Hell. Only 1 out of the 13 will be in Jannah, a you said.

3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Well actually it is only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى who knows and he can share it to Imams (as) etc. If Imam (as) knows then he is not judging if they say person x goes to hell.

You are not understanding my point brother. Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has given us the guidelines to know whether someone is in Hell or not. He tells us who is in Hell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Salaam Aleikum,

These verses clearly show how even the Prophet (as) did not judge the state of previous generation, rather he just said Only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى knows:

He (Fir'aun) said: Then what is the state of the former generations?
He (Musa (as)) said: The knowledge thereof is with my Lord in a book, my Lord errs not, nor does He forget; Qur'an 20:51-52

 

 

Alaikas Salam Brother! 

So we must keep our mouth shut about Abu Jahal, Abu Sufiyan, Muawiyah, Yazeed and other enemies of the Ahlul Bayt (asws). Are you advising to say about them "We don't know what would be their final place and only Allah (s.w.t) knows." 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Plus, may I add - the group that is said to be saved might be smaller in size than the rest 

 

Lets say the groups of self-proclaimed Shia are of equal size. That means that 8% make it and 92% go to hell. But if we look at history, usually the group of good guys is smaller in number than the bad guys. So that means that more than 9 out of 10 Shia groups (and not specifying what those groups are makes it even scarier) are going to a very not nice place next life. 

The point here is to stay humble and fear Allah while not underestimating God's merci towards others. That's what I believe anyway. 

H14731 –Muhammad Bin yahya,from Ahmad Bin Muhammad Bin Isa, from Ibn Mahboub, from Jameel Bin Salih, from Abu Khalid Al-Kabuly, who has narrated the following:

 

Then he (Abu Ja’far) said: ‘The Jews differed, from after Musa (Moses) and separated into seventy- one sects, one of which will be in the Paradise and seventy sects would be in the Fire. And the Christians separated, from after Isa (Jesus) into seventy-two sects, one of which would be in the Paradise and seventy-one of the sects would be in the Fire. And this community will separate after its Prophet into seventy-three sects. Seventy-two sects would be in the Fire and one sect would be in the Paradise. And from these seventy-three sects, thirteen would be of those who claim to be in our Wilayah and show affection to us. Twelve sects from these would be in the Fire and one sect would be in the Paradise. And sixty sects from the rest of the people would be in the Fire’.

 

al-Kafi Vol 8 

 

What distinguishes the right one from the others?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Alaikas Salam Brother! 

So we must keep our mouth shut about Abu Jahal, Abu Sufiyan, Muawiyah, Yazeed and other enemies of the Ahlul Bayt (asws). Are you advising to say about them "We don't know what would be their final place and only Allah (s.w.t) knows." 

Wa Aleikum Salaam Brother,

No. There is nothing wrong to talk about these people who Imams (as) have clearly cursed and gave their status in Hereafter. What I'm here talking about is that we should rather be silent when it comes to personals that we have no knowledge and absolute judgement of their state of hereafter.

Edited by Abu Nur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

You are not understanding my point brother. Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has given us the guidelines to know whether someone is in Hell or not. He tells us who is in Hell.

You can know by the guidelines, but it does not make absolute judgement. 73 sect and only one sect is saved, and then we have narrations how some people from other sect will be saved and that is only by Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى judgement if He wish them to enter Jannah.

Best answer is actually what Prophet Musa (as) said. It also the most peaceful one when it comes to dialogue with others in this matter. 

Edited by Abu Nur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Carlzone said:

What distinguishes the right one from the others?

If I'd say this is the million dollar question I'd be selling it cheap. This is the question that should scare us, keep us on our feet, occupy us mentally, physically, mentally, spiritually till the moment Sayidna 3azraeel - my love - takes our soul - hopefully to a better place. 

 

I have my theories of course, and think that this "group", as they are described as firqa in Arabic, like football team is called fareeq Kora - I believe them to be a spiritual group across all ethnic groups today. Nowadays "religions" are mostly inherited from parents, so I think that the good people exist among all religions, sects, belief systems, geographic locations, races, tribes, humans and jinn, until Allah unites them on a lovely day when He wills it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

If I'd say this is the million dollar question I'd be selling it cheap. This is the question that should scare us, keep us on our feet, occupy us mentally, physically, mentally, spiritually till the moment Sayidna 3azraeel - my love - takes our soul - hopefully to a better place. 

 

I have my theories of course, and think that this "group", as they are described as firqa in Arabic, like football team is called fareeq Kora - I believe them to be a spiritual group across all ethnic groups today. Nowadays "religions" are mostly inherited from parents, so I think that the good people exist among all religions, sects, belief systems, geographic locations, races, tribes, humans and jinn, until Allah unites them on a lovely day when He wills it. 

Didn't we get any specific information as to how to identify this specific group and distinguish it from the others? Seems like this is very important information that believers need.

I believe that if your intention is right God will guide you to the true path InshaAllah. God knows what's in our hearts and whether we want to follow his true religion or not.

May Allah SWT guide us all InshaAllah. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Carlzone said:

Didn't we get any specific information as to how to identify this specific group and distinguish it from the others? Seems like this is very important information that believers need.

I believe that if your intention is right God will guide you to the true path InshaAllah. God knows what's in our hearts and whether we want to follow his true religion or not.

May Allah SWT guide us all InshaAllah. 

Ameen 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

You can know by the guidelines, but it does not make absolute judgement. 73 sect and only one sect is saved, and then we have narrations how some people from other sect will be saved and that is only by Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى judgement if He wish them to enter Jannah.

Best answer is actually what Prophet Musa (as) said. It also the most peaceful one when it comes to dialogue with others in this matter. 

Yes it does make absolute judgement, because the words in the passages were absolute.

We also have guidelines on who will be saved from the other sect. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Carlzone there is a problem with the whole guidelines thing, that even if we have them, we can never be sure that we understand them correctly. From the leaders of Isis to Hezbollah everyone uses the same main guideline from Allah, namely the Quran, but the interpretation makes all the difference. Everyone can say "those are saved who do XYZ", but the understanding of what XYZ is, is different from person to person. So, what makes the difference is the heart, and if the person is a good person. Everybody thinks that their point of view is right, but whose point of view is actually right? It requires thinking and I would love to delve into this subject more and more. Perfect our Islam and find out what real Islam is all about. Allah says that if we ask him for something, he will bring it. So I believe as you said, if our intentions are good and we ask from all our hearts to have the guidance of God, then we should be fine in Sha Allah. But we should never take it for granted, or believe that we are 100% going to paradise, until we actually cross safely over hell. In Sha Allah we all make it ya Rabb. Those of good intentions as you said. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its hard for many modern people to accept traditional soteriologies and shi'ism is no exception. The Quran seems pretty clear most people are going to hell which is hard for people to accept but its just nonetheless. All men besides those protected by Allah are sinners and therefore deserve the wrath of God. If God were to damn all non-mu'mineen there would be zero injustice in this, it is only unjust for him to damn mu'mineen because He has promised the mu'mineen paradise and God cannot break His promises.

وَلَوْ يُؤَاخِذُ اللَّهُ النَّاسَ بِظُلْمِهِم مَّا تَرَكَ عَلَيْهَا مِن دَابَّةٍ وَلَٰكِن يُؤَخِّرُهُمْ إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى ۖ فَإِذَا جَاءَ أَجَلُهُمْ لَا يَسْتَأْخِرُونَ سَاعَةً ۖ وَلَا يَسْتَقْدِمُونَ - 16:61

And if Allah were to impose blame on the people for their wrongdoing, He would not have left upon the earth any creature, but He defers them for a specified term. And when their term has come, they will not remain behind an hour, nor will they precede [it].

Your good intentions are not enough to save you either, only walayah of ahul bayt (as) can save you with assurance. For instance if a nasibi has "good intentions" Allah will still throw him into the pits of hell for all eternity, there is absolutely no way for a nasibi to be saved. Ahlul bayt (as) are like the ark of Noah (as) those who board it live and those who don't drown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Your good intentions are not enough to save you either, only walayah of ahul bayt (as) can save you with assurance.

Salam, to me intentions are enough to save us. If our intentions are to seriously seek forgiveness from Allah and seek guidance, then surely one will be saved, no?

Anyway, according to the prediction, most people who claim to be pledging their wilaya to ahlulbayt are going to hell. So the question is:

What is the true way of ahlulbayt that won't get us into hell? It can't be mainstream, because the majority isn't making it. Especially the mainstream of more than a millenium without any true Islamic leadership in the open. I am not claiming to be among the few who will be saved, but I like to discuss and ponder on what is wrong with people today, in order to make it right in sha Allah. Einstein supposedly said something smart: "insanity is trying the same thing again and again, while expecting different results". Whatever the Shia of the past 1400 years have been trying, it ain't working.

What could be done and understood differently, so we don't end up like the past lost generations of leaderless folk, who can only imagine their imam as a sun behind clouds? Obviously religious doctrines of today will all be off the mark by miles - regardless of people crying that their way is the only way, and that their only salvation relies on their heroes. I hope you don't get me wrong or are offended by my words. I just want to encourage people to look outside themselves and be more self critical. What Shia should be trying to figure out, is where this dirt is, so it can be cleaned. I am not talking about a witch hunt, or finger-pointing. But simply objective suggestions of improvements. We can start by saying that the only sin God says He does not forgive is shirq. OK, where is the shirq in the sects of Shias? Where among the Sunnis? The hypocrites are among the deepest levels of hell. How can we identify hypocrisy within ourselves and others? Paying lip-service to "I am shia, I follow ahlulbayt, etc" doesn't mean much. The question is: What is the way of ahlulbayt in context of our lives, and what isn't among people who claim they do? Anyway, sorry for ranting along to long ..  fi amanilah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Salam, to me intentions are enough to save us. If our intentions are to seriously seek forgiveness from Allah and seek guidance, then surely one will be saved, no?

Anyway, according to the prediction, most people who claim to be pledging their wilaya to ahlulbayt are going to hell. So the question is:

What is the true way of ahlulbayt that won't get us into hell? It can't be mainstream, because the majority isn't making it. Especially the mainstream of more than a millenium without any true Islamic leadership in the open. I am not claiming to be among the few who will be saved, but I like to discuss and ponder on what is wrong with people today, in order to make it right in sha Allah. Einstein supposedly said something smart: "insanity is trying the same thing again and again, while expecting different results". Whatever the Shia of the past 1400 years have been trying, it ain't working.

What could be done and understood differently, so we don't end up like the past lost generations of leaderless folk, who can only imagine their imam as a sun behind clouds? Obviously religious doctrines of today will all be off the mark by miles - regardless of people crying that their way is the only way, and that their only salvation relies on their heroes. I hope you don't get me wrong or are offended by my words. I just want to encourage people to look outside themselves and be more self critical. What Shia should be trying to figure out, is where this dirt is, so it can be cleaned. I am not talking about a witch hunt, or finger-pointing. But simply objective suggestions of improvements. We can start by saying that the only sin God says He does not forgive is shirq. OK, where is the shirq in the sects of Shias? Where among the Sunnis? The hypocrites are among the deepest levels of hell. How can we identify hypocrisy within ourselves and others? Paying lip-service to "I am shia, I follow ahlulbayt, etc" doesn't mean much. The question is: What is the way of ahlulbayt in context of our lives, and what isn't among people who claim they do? Anyway, sorry for ranting along to long ..  fi amanilah

Walaykum Salam. No it doesn't guarantee guidance or salvation. There are sincere people who follow false religions. Its reported that ibn muljam was very much outwardly pious even being among the qurra nonetheless he will be in hell forever. 

Where do you get the idea that most people who hold to the walayah of ahlul bayt (as) are going to hell? If someone believes in their walayah and does bara'ah from their enemies they will enter paradise even if they have a multitude of major sins as per clear riwayat of ahlul bayt (as). The sects of "shia" who will end up in hell are those who either didn't believe in the 12 imams or didnt do bara'ah from their enemies. We do have true leadership in our imam who is the representative of God on earth, the one who knows his imam will not be harmed by any delay in his return and the one who doesn't know his imam dies a death of jahiliyya. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

that ibn muljam was very much outwardly pious even being among the qurra nonetheless he will be in hell forever. 

Outward yes, but his intention is what counts, which is inward. Only God knows what is in people's hearts until they die, when it's too late to repent. Technically Yazid could have repented in the last days of his life, and could have been forgiven without anyone knowing. We can not downplay Allah's forgiveness, just as it makes no sense to be sure about who is going to hell in the next life. It's all about intentions and as I said if your intentions are fine, and you ask God for forgiveness and guidance, do you think he will let you down? The 12 Shia sects going to hell are all claiming to be within the wilaya and all claim to know what it's about. Each one claims to be among the saved ones going to paradise. I would guess the only saved people are the ones who don't talk with too much confidence about their own salvation, while talking about others going to hell (takfir), like they saw them there already. I believe those things go hand in hand. People with fear of God wouldn't care or delve much into the destiny of others. What does that help anyway, other than satisfying a temporary ego itch? Or like an outlet for hate? God's merci can't be limited or predicted. That's my opinion. I know others love to preach about whom they think will go to hell, but careful. If we focus too much on hell, we might fall in God forbid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×