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Abu Nur

Judging people to Hell or Paradise

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19 minutes ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

ibn muljam

Salaam, 

Another thing is that imam Ali supposedly forgave him. Do you think Allah can not forgive him? He can. Allah can forgive anyone He pleases and I don't think we have the right to judge because He is the Judge:

Until yesterday I was your Amir (Prince), today I am only an object from whom you can take lesson and warnings, and tomorrow I shall part company with you. If I survive this fatal wound I shall be at liberty to decide how to treat the man who attempted to kill me. If I die then my worldly life comes to an end. If I forgive my assassin then it will be to gain the Blessings of Allah for forgiving a person who has harmed you, and it will be a good deed if you also forgive him. Do you not desire to be forgiven by the Lord? I swear by Allah that death is not coming to me suddenly and unexpectedly that I may hate or abhor, neither is it such a visitor whom I may refuse to meet. So far as death by martyrdom is concerned I always expected and desired it and I now welcome it like a thirsty person who finds water when he is extremely thirsty. I am a seeker whom martyrdom finds what he was seeking for. To the pious people the best is that which they find with Allah. 

 

Nahjul Balagha Letter 23

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On 11/14/2018 at 11:33 PM, Sumerian said:

Yes it does make absolute judgement, because the words in the passages were absolute.

We also have guidelines on who will be saved from the other sect. 

Person we know and who appears to be kafir and dies, we will for sure judge that he will be in hell fire, but there is no absolute judgement because we don't know really what the heart of the person contains and perhaps he repents and only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is aware of it.

Edited by Abu Nur

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3 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Outward yes, but his intention is what counts, which is inward. Only God knows what is in people's hearts until they die, when it's too late to repent. Technically Yazid could have repented in the last days of his life, and could have been forgiven without anyone knowing. We can not downplay Allah's forgiveness, just as it makes no sense to be sure about who is going to hell in the next life. It's all about intentions and as I said if your intentions are fine, and you ask God for forgiveness and guidance, do you think he will let you down? The 12 Shia sects going to hell are all claiming to be within the wilaya and all claim to know what it's about. Each one claims to be among the saved ones going to paradise. I would guess the only saved people are the ones who don't talk with too much confidence about their own salvation, while talking about others going to hell (takfir), like they saw them there already. I believe those things go hand in hand. People with fear of God wouldn't care or delve much into the destiny of others. What does that help anyway, other than satisfying a temporary ego itch? Or like an outlet for hate? God's merci can't be limited or predicted. That's my opinion. I know others love to preach about whom they think will go to hell, but careful. If we focus too much on hell, we might fall in God forbid.

I know if I ask God for forgiveness He will forgive me because He has promised that to His believing slaves. Its false to say people with fear of God wouldn't care about the destiny of others, just read surah yaseen. The man who is killed by his people says "Oh how I wish my people could know how my lord have forgiven me and placed me among the honored". The man wishes his people would know the truth since his people were damned to the eternal fire for not following the messenger sent to them. Every exclusivistic religion makes exclusivistic claims, this is just a platitude. People focus a lot on the mercy of Allah and talk about it endlessly nowadays, I think what we are missing is some good old fashioned fear of God. He is the most merciful yet also severe in punishment. The Quranic descriptions of such punishments are gruesome. 

2 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Salaam, 

Another thing is that imam Ali supposedly forgave him. Do you think Allah can not forgive him? He can. Allah can forgive anyone He pleases and I don't think we have the right to judge because He is the Judge:

Until yesterday I was your Amir (Prince), today I am only an object from whom you can take lesson and warnings, and tomorrow I shall part company with you. If I survive this fatal wound I shall be at liberty to decide how to treat the man who attempted to kill me. If I die then my worldly life comes to an end. If I forgive my assassin then it will be to gain the Blessings of Allah for forgiving a person who has harmed you, and it will be a good deed if you also forgive him. Do you not desire to be forgiven by the Lord? I swear by Allah that death is not coming to me suddenly and unexpectedly that I may hate or abhor, neither is it such a visitor whom I may refuse to meet. So far as death by martyrdom is concerned I always expected and desired it and I now welcome it like a thirsty person who finds water when he is extremely thirsty. I am a seeker whom martyrdom finds what he was seeking for. To the pious people the best is that which they find with Allah. 

 

Nahjul Balagha Letter 23

Maybe you should re-read what you posted. There are many narrations where the imams (as) send la'nah on Ibn Muljam which proves he will be thrown into the fire just like all other enemies of Aal Muhammad (as). Allah cannot forgive a nasibi who doesn't do tawbah before death because that would contradict His word where He says that those who disbelieve will be eternally in the fire. 

Edited by Shi3i_jadeed

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3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Person we know and who appears to be kafir and dies, we will for sure judge that he will be in hell fire, but there is no absolute judgement because we don't know really what the heart of the person contains and perhaps he repents and only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is aware of it.

We are allowed to judge by the thahir, and we are not punished if we are wrong.

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On 11/13/2018 at 4:39 PM, 313 Seeker said:

. And the Christians separated, from after Isa (Jesus) into seventy-two sects, one of which would be in the Paradise and seventy-one of the sects would be in the Fire. 

I have been a born-again follower of Jesus/Christian since 1976. And I was Catholic from birth until then (22 years). This is the first I have ever heard of this. The Bible says...

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

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9 hours ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Allah cannot 

Those two words should never be put next to each other. God can do anything and everything.

What concerns a case of a person who wishes that people would know about his happiness. I don't see a connection to the topic at hand that has to do with hell and us judging other about that. After all it was that guy talking of himself. 

Making laana can be a temporary thing that changes with time. Somebody who is cursed today can be forgiven tomorrow as long as they repent be for they die. And that's easy for God 

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7 hours ago, MartyS said:

I have been a born-again follower of Jesus/Christian since 1976. And I was Catholic from birth until then (22 years). This is the first I have ever heard of this. The Bible says...

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

Yes the apocalypse of Peter also says that the secret is that in the end God will get everybody out of Hell. One thing is for sure. If God wants it, it will happen. In Islam we have a concept where God can change the course of destiny. If he planned to do something like burn so many people in hell, He can change His mind. I think it's called bada in Arabic. God knows what will happen, but for now I follow an ld believe what is clearly written in the Quran, because that's a test. But im aware that the plan could change. 

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25 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Allah qadir 3ala kol shay2. 

Are you saying that to you there are things God can't do?

:D I think you also believe that Allah is sitting on Kursi and Throne.

Can God be unjust? Can God be ignorant?

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1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

Those two words should never be put next to each other. God can do anything and everything.

What concerns a case of a person who wishes that people would know about his happiness. I don't see a connection to the topic at hand that has to do with hell and us judging other about that. After all it was that guy talking of himself

 Making laana can be a temporary thing that changes with time. Somebody who is cursed today can be forgiven tomorrow as long as they repent be for they die. And that's easy for God 

Yes there are things God cannot do, this is like theology 101. God's omnipotence only pertains to that which is logically coherent which are the only things possible. God cannot create another God or He cannot create a rock so heavy He can't lift or make a square circle and so on. God cannot break His promise because that would contradict His essence. It is connected because the man wanted to save his people from the eternal hellfire. Allah will forgive someone if they repent before they die even if they did shirk but the one who dies upon kufr and shirk will never be forgiven by Him as is very clear in the Quran. 

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7 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

:D I think you also believe that Allah is sitting on Kursi and Throne.

Can God be unjust? Can God be ignorant?

You didn't answer me buddy. So you think God is limited in the things he can Do? I am honestly curious to know. And if yes, then according to your estimates, how many percent of self proclaimed Shia also believe that there thing God can't Do?

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6 hours ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Yes there are things God cannot do, this is like theology 101. God's omnipotence only pertains to that which is logically coherent which are the only things possible. God cannot create another God or He cannot create a rock so heavy He can't lift or make a square circle and so on. God cannot break His promise because that would contradict His essence. It is connected because the man wanted to save his people from the eternal hellfire. Allah will forgive someone if they repent before they die even if they did shirk but the one who dies upon kufr and shirk will never be forgiven by Him as is very clear in the Quran. 

Ok that's interesting. We learn something every day. I didn't know there were people who call themselves Muslim who believe this. I for one believe that أَعْلَمُ أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ


Not only is it logic, but it's written in the Quran in the clearest way that Allah is capable of all things. My logic or limited intelligence doesn't allow me to ignore those verses, nor do i refuse to acknowledge God's ability to do things because I can't imagine them. Each to his own I guess. Your 101 seems to be like a different religion class altogether. After telling me that God is limited in His action, I think discussing His judgment of hell is kind of overshadowed. Is this mainstream "shia" thought? 

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6 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Ok that's interesting. We learn something every day. I didn't know there were people who call themselves Muslim who believe this. I for one believe that أَعْلَمُ أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ


Not only is it logic, but it's written in the Quran in the clearest way that Allah is capable of all things. My logic or limited intelligence doesn't allow me to ignore those verses, nor do i refuse to acknowledge God's ability to do things because I can't imagine them. Each to his own I guess. Your 101 seems to be like a different religion class altogether. After telling me that God is limited in His action, I think discussing His judgment of hell is kind of overshadowed. Is this mainstream "shia" thought? 

Yes what I'm saying is pretty mainstream theology. Every Muslim believes that God is "عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ", the question is what does this mean. God cannot do injustice as He is in His essence just. Allah is beginningless (qidam) and it is inconceivable that He creates something that is also qidam since by definition a creation is muhdath. Basically God can do things which can possibly be done and create things that are creatable. Allah being al qadir doesn't pertain to those things that are مستحيل. 

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9 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

You didn't answer me buddy. So you think God is limited in the things he can Do?

What a strange situation is this!!! Where you're thinking that I am limiting God while I am thinking its you who are limiting God. 

Anyway, I suggest you to read siffat-e-salbiyah and know what are the negative attributes which cannot be found in Allah (s.w.t). 

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Every ayat begins by mentioning Allah’s mercy. Humanity was created for paradise, which surely means the majority of humanity will reach it, as per our design. Otherwise, what was the point of creation? To send most people to hell?

Clearly the concept of justice was not intended to be compartmentalized into an absolute dictum that can be artificially and cleanly separated from mercy.

We are incapable of simultaneously grasping justice and mercy together, so people fall into the trap of oversimplifications.

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On 11/16/2018 at 7:31 AM, MartyS said:

This is the first I have ever heard of this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members

https://www.xenos.org/essays/christian-cults-and-sects

https://undergod.procon.org/view.additional-resource.php?resourceID=000087

http://www.pewforum.org/2011/12/19/global-christianity-regions/

http://www.pewforum.org/2011/12/19/global-christianity-movements-and-denominations/#defining

Let us for a moment stop to define what "Church" really means. Most people seem to think that a church is a building, something like a mosque, synagogue or temple. This term is generally used, but is incorrect. We might also think of an organisation: the Anglican Church or the Presbyterian Church, just to mention two. Again this term is in general use, but is incorrect. Church is the word which translators have used to interpret the Greek word "Ecclesia" which simply means "those that have been called out". Out of what? Out of the "world", representing the mass of mankind rejecting God's claims on them. But if someone is called out, he is at the same time "called into" something. He is called into fellowship with God and other believers.

Schism is invariably the result of differing concepts, doctrines or opinions. Already in the early Church some leaders deviated from the New Testament Scripture. The first were the so-called Judaizers. Besides faith in salvation through Jesus Christ, they demanded adherence to and practice of the Jewish Law of the Old Testament. Thereafter Greek philosophies were introduced in addition to revelation (gnosis). Some people taught that asceticism was to be practiced in addition to faith. Matter was despised, spirit was all that mattered. With that they questioned the quality of the creation of God.

Do these groups and churches all believe something different? To some extent, yes, as the reader has already observed, and as is mentioned above. There are little differences regarding church leadership or forms of worship or baptism. Some churches tend to be rather emotional, and others more legalistic or intellectual in their approach. But there is certainly no controversy over any important teaching of the Bible.

The fifth body comprises the Evangelicals. These seek to live by Biblical norms and rightfully maintain, that no-one can possibly be a Christian without being "born-again" (John 3:3-5) into a new life. Since this is beyond human capacity, a conversion must take place. 

https://www.***.org/Nehls/Answer/churches.html

that no-one can possibly be a Christian without being "born-again" (John 3:3-5) into a new life.   (this is very same to wahhabism doctrine in Islam)

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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Thank you, Ashvazdanghe. My basis for believing in being born-again has been experiencial--the most profound experience of my life--and is also based on the words of Jesus that we must be born-again, as you referenced in John 3:3 and 3:5.

Concerning the unchangeableness of God, Numbers 23:19 says, "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" Is this also part of the Tawrat? (I'm just asking for your understanding. I appreciate your perspective.)

Edited by MartyS
To clarify my second paragraph.

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I think I need to explain why or how I know I am born-again. Ashvazdanghe was correct when he explained that a conversion takes place. My old nature, the sin nature I will call it, ruled my life. I obeyed its desires. I was immoral, having sex with many men, and was unfaithful to my husband, who was my drug dealer. I stole money from my 2-yr old son's piggy bank to buy heroin. And I lied about everything. Until one night, I prayed a prayer of godly sorrow and repentance and asked God to forgive me. I asked Jesus to be the Lord of my life. I didn't know that the Father would send His Spirit to live inside of me and give me a new nature that desired fellowship with Him, not sinning. I now had a conscience that changed even my words. I couldn't curse. I couldn't lie. I craved God's Holy Word. I couldn't get enough of the Bible. It came alive with meaning and power for my daily living and knowing God. Just as Jesus was the physical image of rhe Father, the Bible revealed God's character and His will for my life. I stopped practicing sinning. My heart's desires changed from seeking selfish pleasures to pleasing God. All of my shame and guilt and fear of death were gone. I know now that God took away my sins, because my debt to Him was satisfied by Jesus death and resurrection, and I now have Jesus' righteousness and holiness inside me. When God sees me, He sees Jesus, because the Holy Spirit lives in me. I have a new nature. I was born again.

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. - John 3:5

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7 hours ago, Reza said:

Every ayat begins by mentioning Allah’s mercy. Humanity was created for paradise, which surely means the majority of humanity will reach it, as per our design. Otherwise, what was the point of creation? To send most people to hell?

Clearly the concept of justice was not intended to be compartmentalized into an absolute dictum that can be artificially and cleanly separated from mercy.

We are incapable of simultaneously grasping justice and mercy together, so people fall into the trap of oversimplifications.

 The point of the creation is solely for the glorification of Allah, as Allah says he created the jinn and man to worship Him. You cannot approach this from a man-centered way of thinking. We are the creation and He is the creator. We can only believe by the grace of Allah.

وَلَوْ أَنَّنَا نَزَّلْنَا إِلَيْهِمُ الْمَلَائِكَةَ وَكَلَّمَهُمُ الْمَوْتَىٰ وَحَشَرْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ قُبُلًا مَّا كَانُوا لِيُؤْمِنُوا إِلَّا أَن يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ يَجْهَلُونَ - 6:111

And even if We had sent down to them the angels [with the message] and the dead spoke to them [of it] and We gathered together every [created] thing in front of them, they would not believe unless Allah should will. But most of them, [of that], are ignorant.

إِنَّ السَّاعَةَ لَآتِيَةٌ لَّا رَيْبَ فِيهَا وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ - 40:59

Indeed, the Hour is coming - no doubt about it - but most of the people do not believe.

وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ - 51:56

And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.

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