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In the Name of God بسم الله
Aflower

Muta discussion with the Brothers... Sisters are welcome too

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I am intrigued by how many men on SC suggest that Muta is the solution to satisfying a guys "urges." On another thread someone recommended that a 16 year old boy should have a Muta and two people liked his post. How and where do men find women that are willing to undergo a Muta when the women full well know that this is a short term contract that permits a man to sleep with her in exchange for some money?

This thread is not intended to start a moral debate about Muta or to bash the brothers. I'm genuinely trying to understand:

- How common are Mutas in the West?

- How do the guys approach a woman for a Muta?

- What is the woman's reaction when you approach her?

- Is it common for Muslim women to engage in Mutas too or is it mainly Christians, Jews etc? 

- If you approach a non muslim ahle-kitab woman what is her reaction to this arrangement?

- Do people keep their Muta a secret?

- How would the brothers react if someone approached them to seek their permission to have a Muta with their sisters, aunts, divorced mum or other females in their family? 

- Would the brothers permit females in their family to engage in Mutas with men of their choice/liking?

 

Edited by Aflower

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Salam Aleykoom,

- How common are Mutas in the West?
Not common at all, to my knowledge.

- How do the guys approach a woman for a Muta?
To my opinion, the same way you naturally approach a woman: by not stating you're interested in sex firsthand, but by simply being interested in her. Then if you both want to take it further you do Muta.

- What is the woman's reaction when you approach her?
If the approach is organic and natural, nothing new. At the time of Muta, it depends on her beliefs, most are simply surprised and take it in a fun way.

- Is it common for Muslim women to engage in Mutas too or is it mainly Christians, Jews etc?
I cannot speak for women, unfortunately.

- If you approach a non muslim ahle-kitab woman what is her reaction to this arrangement?
Refer to the answer to your second question.

- Do people keep their Muta a secret?
The difference between Nikah Muta and casually going out with your boyfriend/girlfriend is subtle yet crucial: one is allowed, the other is a major sin. In western countries, people simply view your relationship as natural, since they can't tell the difference.

- How would the brothers react if someone approached them to seek their permission to have a Muta with their sisters, aunts, divorced mum or other females in their family?
Personal opinions shouldn't be factored in when people are doing what is lawful and allowed. Then again, there are some cases where muta is makrooh (although my memory fails me, but hadiths on the subject can easily be found on Kitab Al-Kafi, volume 4, in the chapter about marriage)

- Would the brothers permit females in their family to engage in Mutas with men of their choice/liking?
Refer to my answer above. There are makrooh cases, but generally, i tend not to let my personal opinions get in the way of Deen. Whatever Allah Azz wa Jall Allows is a mercy from Him.

Wa Salam.

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use the history tab and find old posts related to this subject with responses to similar questions that have been proposed.

There is nothing to understand as what you require is statistics. That would imply researching a large demographic of men who practice it. This forum does not have that data. What it has is opinions with a generality of introverts.

When the idea of muta is suggested it is implied as an option. If the male in question has troubles with their self abuse, and non-marriage due to conditioned applied by the communities, then muta would be the logical conclusion to avoid mental damage. No one agreed the use of women as objective tools, it is just females who generally jump on the defensive, when it is mentioned. They give the pretense of it being a low class option and accept some males to follow an ascetic type of lifestyle because that is their feeling and opinion. Women want to change males to fit their ideal. Yet in the real world, many females agree upon such a deal?. It means that they accept it while knowing what it entails, because the male who proposes it, has to explain the conditions of it. Whether they want a relationship or do it as a temporary deal. It wont be logical to do it as a short term deal, as the female won't wont be able to sleep with a male again for 3 months or so. Thus we assume, it generally stems towards a relationship.

I find the pretense of naivety quite comical. Do you actually think males approach women and ask lets do muta?. It probably works similar to the cases of male and female interaction, where there is an interest of making a relationship or in rare cases where they just want to engage in non-disclosure intercourse. This is not applicable for the regular male or female, it pertains more to a genetic disposition coupled with the male or female having the beiber complex. The more fame, wealth and looks a person has, the more likely their chance of being initiated with.

 

Edited by monad

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@monad. Firstly, thank you for taking the time to respond. You have made some fair points. There is no "pretence" on my part. Could you please shed some light on the Beiber complex that you have referred to if you get time? Thank you.

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11 hours ago, Aflower said:

I am intrigued by how many men on SC suggest that Muta is the solution to satisfying a guys "urges." On another thread someone recommended that a 16 year old boy should have a Muta and two people liked his post. How and where do men find women that are willing to undergo a Muta when the women full well know that this is a short term contract that permits a man to sleep with her in exchange for some money?

This thread is not intended to start a moral debate about Muta or to bash the brothers. I'm genuinely trying to understand:

- How common are Mutas in the West?

Not very common

- How do the guys approach a woman for a Muta?

It varies depending on the guy and the women

- What is the woman's reaction when you approach her?

It varies depending on the women

- Is it common for Muslim women to engage in Mutas too or is it mainly Christians, Jews etc? 

Mainly with Christians, meaning cultural Christians. The strict ones would not do mutah. Not sure about Jews

- If you approach a non muslim ahle-kitab woman what is her reaction to this arrangement?

It varies but most of the time positive. They think of it like dating but with some rules. If she likes the guy, she will be happy if he approaches her. If she doesn't like him, she will probably 'me too' him. Lol (jk)

- Do people keep their Muta a secret?

Mostly yes, and this is a shame. 

- How would the brothers react if someone approached them to seek their permission to have a Muta with their sisters, aunts, divorced mum or other females in their family? 

You probably already know the answer to that one. 

- Would the brothers permit females in their family to engage in Mutas with men of their choice/liking?

If they meet the criteria for marriage (baligh, rushd, etc) it is their decision.  I wouldn't be happy or comfortable with it, but I don't have the right to interfere, again, if they meet the criteria and the guy meets the criteria (he is muslim, not fasiq, etc). 

Also, I would say that we can't treat 'Women in the West' or 'Jews' or 'Christians' as a block. They are all different, with different goals, personality, knowledge and levels of commitment to their religion. I was hoping you'd see the humor in my answers, but basically 'it varies' is the answer. In Christianity and Judaism, there is no such a thing as 'Mutah' or 'Temporary Marriage'. Historically (excluding the last 150 years or so), there was Polygamy practiced in both Christianity and Judaism and educated Christians and Jews are fully aware that Polygamy was a practice of the Prophets of God that they believe in (Abraham, David, Soloman, etc) and we believe in. The ones who know their religion and stick to it 'to the letter' would never do it. But as you probably already guessed, most Christians and Jews are not like that. They (and most Muslims also do this) take the 'Shopping Cart' approach to religion, they follow what they like and don't follow what they don't like, then try to find some way to justify to themselves why they aren't following the parts they know to be true. 

Also in Christianity, there is no 'Sharia' or religious law that carries with it penalties for violating it. So most laws that are in Islam are also in Christianity and Judaism, but these are 'recommendations', not 'requirements'. So they have a different view of religion and religious law. 

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1 hour ago, monad said:

it pertains more to a genetic disposition coupled with the male or female having the beiber complex. -----> The more fame, wealth and looks a person has, the more likely their chance of being initiated with.

why do males and female chase each other?. First, there is exposure. I have to see something in order to either be moved to or away from. The more I am exposed to something the familiar it gets, in fact what could be detested, with time becomes agreeable. Why do females chase males with fame and fortune?. They are no different then the guy who sits opposite them at their school, work. but somehow one differs in grandeur then the other. Same goes for males.

So when muta is agreed upon, both parties are or were heavily interested in each other, that lead to the exchange of hormones.

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3 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

 They (and most Muslims also do this) take the 'Shopping Cart' approach to religion, they follow what they like and don't follow what they don't like, then try to find some way to justify to themselves why they aren't following the parts they know to be true. 

Precisely!  If only this quote could be pinned on top of SC banner. Wow, wow, wooooow!  Sub7an'Allah

Mash'Allah brother, you definitely nailed this one on the head!

Thank you!

Is @SamAlFarsi your second screen name brother?

Edited by Laayla

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17 minutes ago, Laayla said:

Precisely!  If only this quote could be pinned on top of SC banner. Wow, wow, wooooow!  Sub7an'Allah

Mash'Allah brother, you definitely nailed this one on the head!

Thank you!

Is @SamAlFarsi your second screen name brother?

I was initially confused about this too but then the penny dropped that they must be the same person. :grin:

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OP, what we have seen here is lack of diverse views in regards to this topic.

In society there is much deceit and self-deception. People are themselves deceived and they deceive others. And in the preceding statements are the answers to some of your questions.

Mutah in most common contexts is a very bad thing. We need to warn people about its dangers.

If it was a wahabi only view, the shia would mock it.

I thought I would post to give more balance to the opinions.

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On 11/11/2018 at 12:15 AM, Aflower said:

How and where do men find women that are willing to undergo a Muta when the women full well know that this is a short term contract that permits a man to sleep with her in exchange for some money?

I find this wording interesting, as it implies a generalization.

I've spent nearly a decade in the middle-east, and you'd be surprised at the amount of virgin women (and their sunni families) who were ok with a permanent marriage & a high dowry, despite knowing fully that the suitor is planning to have intercourse and divorce the woman (usually a prince does this, and he does this often to multiple women, the women are happy for the easy money sadly).

Now, do all people use permanent marriage as such? Nope. We can apply the same logic in the use of Mut'a marriage, no need to generalize.

 

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2 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Now, do all people use permanent marriage as such? Nope. We can apply the same logic in the use of Mut'a marriage, no need to generalize.

The point of a mutah is literally intimacy in exchange of money. If we look at the root of it's existence, that's literally it. Nowadays people use it to "get to know eachother " the halal way. They joke around with everyone, but when it comes to marriage, they need a mutah to communicate with the opposite sex for some reason. 

The people you're referring to are abusing permanent marriage. But mutah is not being abused when two people agree on some sort of no-strings-attached relationship that will last for a very short period of time. 

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Why is everyone bringing up the physical aspects of marriage? Be it temporary or permanent, besides physical intimacy there is emotional intimacy and a sense of companionship which is priceless and equally important to both men and women. 

Edited by starlight
'Or' instead of 'and'

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22 minutes ago, starlight said:

Why is everyone bringing up the physical aspects of marriage? Be it temporary and permanent besides physical intimacy there is emotional intimacy and a sense of companionship which is priceless and equally important to both men and women. 

Absolutely. Even if someone might argue that the physical aspect is more important to men and, so, why should women be forced into mut'ah and treated like objects to fulfil sexual desires, the fact is women in the West where there are fewer restrictions do get into relationships as well, no? They're not forced into them. Obviously, they're getting something out of it, and want one. Maybe they want the physical aspect less and want the emotional intimacy with the man, and again, the degree of puritanical thought in our societies and the various restrictions on marriage until half a person's life is already over are preventing women from having their physical and emotional needs being met as well.

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54 minutes ago, starlight said:

Why is everyone bringing up the physical aspects of marriage? Be it temporary and permanent besides physical intimacy there is emotional intimacy and a sense of companionship which is priceless and equally important to both men and women. 

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum dear sis.

Unfortunately there are people who have made marriage a burden or a physical hardship that this is how they have framed marriage to be is just to fulfill sexual desires.

As people age, and just ask the elderly their biggest battle is loneliness.  They miss their spouses and long to be in a companionship.  Sub7an'Allah.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

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19 hours ago, Laayla said:

Precisely!  If only this quote could be pinned on top of SC banner. Wow, wow, wooooow!  Sub7an'Allah

Mash'Allah brother, you definitely nailed this one on the head!

Thank you!

Is @SamAlFarsi your second screen name brother?

No. But now I'm going to have to read his posts. Thank you for your kind words. Salam. 

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34 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

@Aflower

You have raised question which were in my heart. Good questions raised.

Looking forward for some knowledgeable replies.

Lol I've had enough of mut'ah threads, will you lemme breath? :D

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As to my knowledge, Mutah was introduced after the battle of badr when many muslims men were martyred and their women were left widows and children orphans.

It was implemented therefore in those times so that Widows and Orphans would have a shelter in form of a man to look after their needs which is why a child from mutah is even entitled for inheritance.

But nowadays people want to do mutah purely because of their 'physical' needs which is not understandable as because they are too young in age mostly and that is why they lack sense of responsibility towards mutah.

It is more like you were trying to avoid one sin (Zina) and ended doing another sin (lacking responsibilty after mutah and falling into a cyclone).

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1 hour ago, Sumerian said:

Fun fact: some scholars allow mutah with a prostitute.

Corresponding not so fun at all fact:  some males actually do that.  

It is probably a good idea to demand testing for sexually transmissible diseases before considering an individual for marriage.  It would be pretty awful for a young woman to have her health ruined by one of these males.

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On 11/11/2018 at 9:57 PM, Qa'im said:

15-25 is an awkward age for men, because they're not quite men, nor are they boys; and they cannot marry until they learn to become men. 

This! :clap:

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6 hours ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

Absolutely. Even if someone might argue that the physical aspect is more important to men and, so, why should women be forced into mut'ah and treated like objects to fulfil sexual desires, the fact is women in the West where there are fewer restrictions do get into relationships as well, no? They're not forced into them. Obviously, they're getting something out of it, and want one. Maybe they want the physical aspect less and want the emotional intimacy with the man, and again, the degree of puritanical thought in our societies and the various restrictions on marriage until half a person's life is already over are preventing women from having their physical and emotional needs being met as well.

This is the beauty of modernist thought. It flips between the two extremes of unabashed hedonism and prudish Platonism ( where conjugal relationships are concerned) with remarkable ease, depending on its convenience.

WHICH brings me to my (unrelated) question- what if the prospective bride/groom is age- fluid like me, aged between 5 to 35 years? ( Regressive cabbages believing in age- stereotypes, please stay away from this post).:shifty:

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8 hours ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

Absolutely. Even if someone might argue that the physical aspect is more important to men and, so, why should women be forced into mut'ah and treated like objects to fulfil sexual desires, the fact is women in the West where there are fewer restrictions do get into relationships as well, no? They're not forced into them. Obviously, they're getting something out of it, and want one. Maybe they want the physical aspect less and want the emotional intimacy with the man, and again, the degree of puritanical thought in our societies and the various restrictions on marriage until half a person's life is already over are preventing women from having their physical and emotional needs being met as well.

A person that has nutritional requirements should not binge on processed sugar. They should eat healthy food instead. If people have needs then they must find less dangerous ways to fulfil them and learn how to control their minds.

On another thread there were some senior members who suggested that mutah is better for younger people than permanent marriage. That demonstrates a lack of careful thought. Someone said early permanent marriage is too difficult because society makes it hard. Well, do they think they are going to have more success promoting widespread mutah instead of early permanent marriage among the elders of the community? Why choose to promote the more harmful thing if it is also more difficult to achieve?

Quote

They're not forced into them. Obviously, they're getting something out of it, and want one.

Yes they are being forced. They have been told by society and the media that it's good for them, and they fell for it. That is a type of force. Have we never seen humans who acted as if something was good for them when it was harmful? Life is full of such examples.

BTW in response to one of the OP's questions: You will see evidence of women being duped into temporary relationships on this forum (threads complaining about how he left her), not knowing that it would end. This is how some people go about it, and non-muslims do the same thing.

Women can become pregnant, thus it should not surprise anyone that it is in their nature to dislike such relationships. Contraception is a new invention and women's nature was created before that existed. I don't think it's a good idea telling women to fulfil their needs with temporary partners if deep down there is a part of their brain and soul that dislikes it.

People like to quote a few ahadith on mutah without looking at the matter holistically. E.g. why do they forget that certain Imams {a} had daughters that never got married and also didn't do mutah? Isn't it supposedly mustahab? Why not quote the hadith were the Imam tells a companion not to do mutah with the women of Madinah because they are differnt form the women from the time of the Prophet {s}? Or why not consider the possibility that mutah was considered less harmful for some of the people of the Prophet’s {s} time because they had already harmed themselves beyond return in the period before Islam?

Or why not ask how Islam would have turned out if it was passed down by women from Victorian England instead of men? The religion that we have has gone through filters that can affect it. E.g. you will see that scholars that come from different parts of the world, have differing rulings and beliefs that were influenced by their environment.

Importantly, why not balance the probabilistic evidence from a small number of ahadith with the evidence that God has given us from rational thought and other well-established teachings of Islam?

BTW Jordan Peterson gets it: "Modern people like to think that there is nothing dangerous about sex, and that is like the stupidest thing you could possibly ever hypothesize. Because everything about it is dangerous. It's dangerous emotionally, it's dangerous socially, it's dangerous .. " Dr Peterson could add some shias to that category of people.

Listen to the segment here:

https://youtu.be/qvdHIowgLRs?t=95

Brother Khadim, the above in its totality is not a direct response to your post or your views. I just took the opportunity to respond to some views that I have seen on here.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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5 hours ago, notme said:
7 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Fun fact: some scholars allow mutah with a prostitute.

Corresponding not so fun at all fact:  some males actually do that.  

It is probably a good idea to demand testing for sexually transmissible diseases before considering an individual for marriage.  It would be pretty awful for a young woman to have her health ruined by one of these males.

Any of you know why SOME males do it?. Do you think they do it because its what they want, or there must be a reason as to why a particular set of men attempt such risky behavior?. Every year you will get articles on major newspapers regarding prostitution, either as a negative or positive. To women willingly doing, it to women coerced into it. In the comment sections whether there or on any other site, the men who use such women always tend to be the rejects of society with the added bonus of having disposable income. So selling sex is bought by rejects, men with access cash, addicts, or married men who have no chance of intercourse with their wives or men who love their wives, but need someone to abuse on the side. They see women who sell sex as lesser then normal women, thus allowing them to be violent or do things to them which they would not do to their loved ones. Chances of getting one of this as a practicing theist is very rare. Again we are looking at statistics. And to the women, they either do it, because its easy money, addictions, trafficking or coercion or simply put poverty.

2 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

A person that has nutritional requirements should not binge on processed sugar. They should eat healthy food instead. If people have needs then they must find less dangerous ways to fulfil them and learn how to control their minds.

On another thread there were some senior members who suggested that mutah is better for younger people than permanent marriage. That demonstrates a lack of careful thought. Someone said early permanent marriage is too difficult because society makes it hard. Well, do they think they are going to have more success promoting widespread mutah instead of early permanent marriage among the elders of the community? Why choose to promote the more harmful thing if it is also more difficult to achieve?

When muta is given as an option, it based on the current climate, where the mix relationships between male and female is much more open. Thus the probability of developing one is higher then for individuals who restrict themselves from such interactions. Anything is harmful and has risks involved but, it is a reasonable proposition for a particular type of personality. We know, only a small percentage will even attempt it and generally knowing such types, their behavior is always an indication of their personal trait. Of course early marriages should be the first priority, however, the parents and elders have other vested interested and the young generation does not understand the word NO anymore. They are spoilt and comfortable to some extent. Once again, it is a particular type of personality that will come online and break their silence regarding their self abuse, where as others with some reasonable intellect, may do it or not, but are silent and tactful in that manner.

2 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

BTW in response to one of the OP's questions: You will see evidence of women being duped into temporary relationships on this forum (threads complaining about how he left her), not knowing that it would end. This is how some people go about it, and non-muslims do the same thing.

I doubt the females are duped, if they are explained the contract properly. If they intend to take such a contract on, they should know the risks involved. If they are blind sided because the contract comes from a theist who is expect to be moral, then the fault lies from the early stages of how the religion was prosthelytized. Just because a face has a beard or a head a scarf and the mouth piece the ability to repeat phrases does not entail morality of consciousness regarding other beings. We write as such, as this has been developed through age and experience and we admit to it, to further assist those who are still embarking on that journey.

 

2 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

People like to quote a few ahadith on mutah without looking at the matter holistically. E.g. why do they forget that certain Imams {a} had daughters that never got married and also didn't do mutah? Isn't it supposedly mustahab? Why not quote the hadith were the Imam tells a companion not to do mutah with the women of Madinah because they are differnt form the women from the time of the Prophet {s}? Or why not consider the possibility that mutah was considered less harmful for some of the people of the Prophet’s {s} time because they had already harmed themselves beyond return in the period before Islam?

Or why not ask how Islam would have turned out if it was passed down by women from Victorian England instead of men? The religion that we have has gone through filters that can affect it. E.g. you will see that scholars that come from different parts of the world, have differing rulings and beliefs that were influenced by their environment.

Importantly, why not balance the probabilistic evidence from a small number of ahadith with the evidence that God has given us from rational thought and other well-established teachings of Islam?

The question should be asked is, why didn't their daughters get married?. The variable could be many, either any male was in fear of association to such a family, strictness to adhere to a particular status or simply put, no male was good enough for that particular family. We can assume that many narrations, were always aimed at a particular group , person during that period and it just is an assumption that it was meant for the whole of time. Regarding why some were allowed and some not, i doubt it has to do with being sinners before, it would more of a personality trait or vigor, libido or just pure intellect.

 

2 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

BTW Jordan Peterson gets it: "Modern people like to think that there is nothing dangerous about sex, and that is like the stupidest thing you could possibly ever hypothesize. Because everything about it is dangerous. It's dangerous emotionally, it's dangerous socially, it's dangerous .. " Dr Peterson could add some shias to that category of people.

JP as good as he is, is also promoting christian values. He understand that from a psychoanalytical point, society has degraded into an unethical course and has caused more harm then good. To reverse this travesty, he attempts to at least  state the other side of the coin. If sex is used as just a thing of pleasure or for the self it has consequences. and i doubt he is pointing out to sex being harmful as it is part of nature. It is the disrespect and throw away usage of it which is harmful.

Also this subject of Muta, marriage and relationships are not universal. They do not apply to all. In terms of statistics it may favour a large part of the human species, however there is a small group, that will always be left out of it. With the advent of how the 1% have constrained the living standards of the many, you will see many unwilling to embark on this journey of propagating or having meaningful relationships. This is why we have decadence, where these in and out relationships are solely meant to remove the long term of risk of relationships and look out for the self. Also there are many married male and females from third world countries, who work abroad. they probably see their families once a year. One would ask, what was their purpose in marriage if all they do is work to enable the others to survive.

Edited by monad

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19 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Fun fact: some scholars allow mutah with a prostitute.

Which scholars? 

If it's halal for a man to sleep with a prostitute - why would it be haram for a woman to be a prostitute? Makes no sense.

What is the ratio between scholars who allow it versus scholars who do not allow it? What do our biggest marja3s say? 

 

Let's disregard halal/haram here for a moment. What kind of man would want to sleep with a woman who sleeps with 10 other men per day every day? 

Edited by Carlzone

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