Jump to content
Aflower

Muta discussion with the Brothers... Sisters are welcome too

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Sumerian said:

Fun fact: some scholars allow mutah with a prostitute.

Corresponding not so fun at all fact:  some males actually do that.  

It is probably a good idea to demand testing for sexually transmissible diseases before considering an individual for marriage.  It would be pretty awful for a young woman to have her health ruined by one of these males.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/11/2018 at 9:57 PM, Qa'im said:

15-25 is an awkward age for men, because they're not quite men, nor are they boys; and they cannot marry until they learn to become men. 

This! :clap:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

Absolutely. Even if someone might argue that the physical aspect is more important to men and, so, why should women be forced into mut'ah and treated like objects to fulfil sexual desires, the fact is women in the West where there are fewer restrictions do get into relationships as well, no? They're not forced into them. Obviously, they're getting something out of it, and want one. Maybe they want the physical aspect less and want the emotional intimacy with the man, and again, the degree of puritanical thought in our societies and the various restrictions on marriage until half a person's life is already over are preventing women from having their physical and emotional needs being met as well.

This is the beauty of modernist thought. It flips between the two extremes of unabashed hedonism and prudish Platonism ( where conjugal relationships are concerned) with remarkable ease, depending on its convenience.

WHICH brings me to my (unrelated) question- what if the prospective bride/groom is age- fluid like me, aged between 5 to 35 years? ( Regressive cabbages believing in age- stereotypes, please stay away from this post).:shifty:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

Absolutely. Even if someone might argue that the physical aspect is more important to men and, so, why should women be forced into mut'ah and treated like objects to fulfil sexual desires, the fact is women in the West where there are fewer restrictions do get into relationships as well, no? They're not forced into them. Obviously, they're getting something out of it, and want one. Maybe they want the physical aspect less and want the emotional intimacy with the man, and again, the degree of puritanical thought in our societies and the various restrictions on marriage until half a person's life is already over are preventing women from having their physical and emotional needs being met as well.

A person that has nutritional requirements should not binge on processed sugar. They should eat healthy food instead. If people have needs then they must find less dangerous ways to fulfil them and learn how to control their minds.

On another thread there were some senior members who suggested that mutah is better for younger people than permanent marriage. That demonstrates a lack of careful thought. Someone said early permanent marriage is too difficult because society makes it hard. Well, do they think they are going to have more success promoting widespread mutah instead of early permanent marriage among the elders of the community? Why choose to promote the more harmful thing if it is also more difficult to achieve?

Quote

They're not forced into them. Obviously, they're getting something out of it, and want one.

Yes they are being forced. They have been told by society and the media that it's good for them, and they fell for it. That is a type of force. Have we never seen humans who acted as if something was good for them when it was harmful? Life is full of such examples.

BTW in response to one of the OP's questions: You will see evidence of women being duped into temporary relationships on this forum (threads complaining about how he left her), not knowing that it would end. This is how some people go about it, and non-muslims do the same thing.

Women can become pregnant, thus it should not surprise anyone that it is in their nature to dislike such relationships. Contraception is a new invention and women's nature was created before that existed. I don't think it's a good idea telling women to fulfil their needs with temporary partners if deep down there is a part of their brain and soul that dislikes it.

People like to quote a few ahadith on mutah without looking at the matter holistically. E.g. why do they forget that certain Imams {a} had daughters that never got married and also didn't do mutah? Isn't it supposedly mustahab? Why not quote the hadith were the Imam tells a companion not to do mutah with the women of Madinah because they are differnt form the women from the time of the Prophet {s}? Or why not consider the possibility that mutah was considered less harmful for some of the people of the Prophet’s {s} time because they had already harmed themselves beyond return in the period before Islam?

Or why not ask how Islam would have turned out if it was passed down by women from Victorian England instead of men? The religion that we have has gone through filters that can affect it. E.g. you will see that scholars that come from different parts of the world, have differing rulings and beliefs that were influenced by their environment.

Importantly, why not balance the probabilistic evidence from a small number of ahadith with the evidence that God has given us from rational thought and other well-established teachings of Islam?

BTW Jordan Peterson gets it: "Modern people like to think that there is nothing dangerous about sex, and that is like the stupidest thing you could possibly ever hypothesize. Because everything about it is dangerous. It's dangerous emotionally, it's dangerous socially, it's dangerous .. " Dr Peterson could add some shias to that category of people.

Listen to the segment here:

https://youtu.be/qvdHIowgLRs?t=95

Brother Khadim, the above in its totality is not a direct response to your post or your views. I just took the opportunity to respond to some views that I have seen on here.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, notme said:
7 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Fun fact: some scholars allow mutah with a prostitute.

Corresponding not so fun at all fact:  some males actually do that.  

It is probably a good idea to demand testing for sexually transmissible diseases before considering an individual for marriage.  It would be pretty awful for a young woman to have her health ruined by one of these males.

Any of you know why SOME males do it?. Do you think they do it because its what they want, or there must be a reason as to why a particular set of men attempt such risky behavior?. Every year you will get articles on major newspapers regarding prostitution, either as a negative or positive. To women willingly doing, it to women coerced into it. In the comment sections whether there or on any other site, the men who use such women always tend to be the rejects of society with the added bonus of having disposable income. So selling sex is bought by rejects, men with access cash, addicts, or married men who have no chance of intercourse with their wives or men who love their wives, but need someone to abuse on the side. They see women who sell sex as lesser then normal women, thus allowing them to be violent or do things to them which they would not do to their loved ones. Chances of getting one of this as a practicing theist is very rare. Again we are looking at statistics. And to the women, they either do it, because its easy money, addictions, trafficking or coercion or simply put poverty.

2 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

A person that has nutritional requirements should not binge on processed sugar. They should eat healthy food instead. If people have needs then they must find less dangerous ways to fulfil them and learn how to control their minds.

On another thread there were some senior members who suggested that mutah is better for younger people than permanent marriage. That demonstrates a lack of careful thought. Someone said early permanent marriage is too difficult because society makes it hard. Well, do they think they are going to have more success promoting widespread mutah instead of early permanent marriage among the elders of the community? Why choose to promote the more harmful thing if it is also more difficult to achieve?

When muta is given as an option, it based on the current climate, where the mix relationships between male and female is much more open. Thus the probability of developing one is higher then for individuals who restrict themselves from such interactions. Anything is harmful and has risks involved but, it is a reasonable proposition for a particular type of personality. We know, only a small percentage will even attempt it and generally knowing such types, their behavior is always an indication of their personal trait. Of course early marriages should be the first priority, however, the parents and elders have other vested interested and the young generation does not understand the word NO anymore. They are spoilt and comfortable to some extent. Once again, it is a particular type of personality that will come online and break their silence regarding their self abuse, where as others with some reasonable intellect, may do it or not, but are silent and tactful in that manner.

2 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

BTW in response to one of the OP's questions: You will see evidence of women being duped into temporary relationships on this forum (threads complaining about how he left her), not knowing that it would end. This is how some people go about it, and non-muslims do the same thing.

I doubt the females are duped, if they are explained the contract properly. If they intend to take such a contract on, they should know the risks involved. If they are blind sided because the contract comes from a theist who is expect to be moral, then the fault lies from the early stages of how the religion was prosthelytized. Just because a face has a beard or a head a scarf and the mouth piece the ability to repeat phrases does not entail morality of consciousness regarding other beings. We write as such, as this has been developed through age and experience and we admit to it, to further assist those who are still embarking on that journey.

 

2 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

People like to quote a few ahadith on mutah without looking at the matter holistically. E.g. why do they forget that certain Imams {a} had daughters that never got married and also didn't do mutah? Isn't it supposedly mustahab? Why not quote the hadith were the Imam tells a companion not to do mutah with the women of Madinah because they are differnt form the women from the time of the Prophet {s}? Or why not consider the possibility that mutah was considered less harmful for some of the people of the Prophet’s {s} time because they had already harmed themselves beyond return in the period before Islam?

Or why not ask how Islam would have turned out if it was passed down by women from Victorian England instead of men? The religion that we have has gone through filters that can affect it. E.g. you will see that scholars that come from different parts of the world, have differing rulings and beliefs that were influenced by their environment.

Importantly, why not balance the probabilistic evidence from a small number of ahadith with the evidence that God has given us from rational thought and other well-established teachings of Islam?

The question should be asked is, why didn't their daughters get married?. The variable could be many, either any male was in fear of association to such a family, strictness to adhere to a particular status or simply put, no male was good enough for that particular family. We can assume that many narrations, were always aimed at a particular group , person during that period and it just is an assumption that it was meant for the whole of time. Regarding why some were allowed and some not, i doubt it has to do with being sinners before, it would more of a personality trait or vigor, libido or just pure intellect.

 

2 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

BTW Jordan Peterson gets it: "Modern people like to think that there is nothing dangerous about sex, and that is like the stupidest thing you could possibly ever hypothesize. Because everything about it is dangerous. It's dangerous emotionally, it's dangerous socially, it's dangerous .. " Dr Peterson could add some shias to that category of people.

JP as good as he is, is also promoting christian values. He understand that from a psychoanalytical point, society has degraded into an unethical course and has caused more harm then good. To reverse this travesty, he attempts to at least  state the other side of the coin. If sex is used as just a thing of pleasure or for the self it has consequences. and i doubt he is pointing out to sex being harmful as it is part of nature. It is the disrespect and throw away usage of it which is harmful.

Also this subject of Muta, marriage and relationships are not universal. They do not apply to all. In terms of statistics it may favour a large part of the human species, however there is a small group, that will always be left out of it. With the advent of how the 1% have constrained the living standards of the many, you will see many unwilling to embark on this journey of propagating or having meaningful relationships. This is why we have decadence, where these in and out relationships are solely meant to remove the long term of risk of relationships and look out for the self. Also there are many married male and females from third world countries, who work abroad. they probably see their families once a year. One would ask, what was their purpose in marriage if all they do is work to enable the others to survive.

Edited by monad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Fun fact: some scholars allow mutah with a prostitute.

Which scholars? 

If it's halal for a man to sleep with a prostitute - why would it be haram for a woman to be a prostitute? Makes no sense.

What is the ratio between scholars who allow it versus scholars who do not allow it? What do our biggest marja3s say? 

 

Let's disregard halal/haram here for a moment. What kind of man would want to sleep with a woman who sleeps with 10 other men per day every day? 

Edited by Carlzone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To the OP, I don't know the answers to all of your questions, but I do know some girls who have done mutah - they are almost exclusively converts. Other than that I only know divorced females who practice this. 

Virgin girls may be allowed to do it as an engagement period before permanent marriage but without physical touching. Not all virgin girls are allowed to do this though. 

So basically it's converts and divorcees and widows who engage in mutahs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Carlzone said:

Let's disregard halal/haram here for a moment. What kind of man would want to sleep with a woman who sleeps with 10 other men per day every day? 

And who said all prostitutes sleep with ten men everyday? 

Put yourself in the shoes of a Syrian widow who's been displaced and has no family left and nothing at all to offer her children. What are her options? Just take a moment to reflect on such women's situations and then come back with the same judgement and condescending tone. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

And who said all prostitutes sleep with ten men everyday? 

Put yourself in the shoes of a Syrian widow who's been displaced and has no family left and nothing at all to offer her children. What are her options? Just take a moment to reflect on such women's situations and then come back with the same judgement and condescending tone. 

Reread my post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Carlzone said:

Reread my post.

Quite weird, I've seen this response from you multiple times now. 

Please put yourself in such a vulnerable woman's shoes. Not everyone can afford our luxuries. 

Edited by 2Timeless

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

Quite weird, I've seen this response from you multiple times now. 

Please put yourself in such a vulnerable woman's shoes. Not everyone can afford our luxuries. 

Exactly. Coz I need to repeat it.

Read what I wrote. Separate that from your own interpretations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Carlzone said:

Which scholars? 

If it's halal for a man to sleep with a prostitute - why would it be haram for a woman to be a prostitute? Makes no sense.

What is the ratio between scholars who allow it versus scholars who do not allow it? What do our biggest marja3s say? 

 

Let's disregard halal/haram here for a moment. What kind of man would want to sleep with a woman who sleeps with 10 other men per day every day? 

Sayyed Khamenei allows it, and some others do but from the top of my head I can't list them. Sayyed Al-Sistani doesn't allow it, as per obligatory precaution.

Because women are obligated to observe iddah after every marriage where intercourse has taken place. There is no iddah on men, a man can go through multiple mutahs in one day if he likes, and have multiple partners.

I don't support it.

Edited by Sumerian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Carlzone said:

Exactly. Coz I need to repeat it.

Read what I wrote. Separate that from your own interpretations.

There must be a reason you need to repeat it. 

Read what you wrote. Acknowledge and get rid of your condescending and superior attitude to the less fortunate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Sayyed Khamenei allows it, and some others do but from the top of my head I can't list them. Sayyed Al-Sistani doesn't allow it, as per obligatory precaution.

Because women are obligated to observe iddah after every marriage where intercourse has taken place. There is no iddah on men, a man can go through multiple mutahs in one day if he likes, and have multiple partners.

Now I know why I love Sayyid Sistani so much. Alhamdulillah weshokorr.

But shouldn't a believer want for others what he wants for himself? If he's ok with sleeping with a prostitute - shouldn't he be ok with his sister being a prostitute and sleeping with random men?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

There must be a reason you need to repeat it. 

Read what you wrote. Acknowledge and get rid of your condescending and superior attitude to the less fortunate. 

I thought i was clear.

Once again. Reread what i wrote and separate it from your own interpretations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/12/2018 at 8:35 AM, Khadim uz Zahra said:

Permanent marriage could also be argued to literally be a permission for sex in exchange for a lifelong stipend. Those are the very basic requirements for marriage, if you only look at the law. And if two people want to get permanently married just to have sex, and the man pays the woman living expenses but they live in separate houses, don't love each other and so on, that's also a perfectly valid marriage Islamically. But that's not the ethical point of permanent marriage.

These words made me so proud of KuZ. A crippling blow at the hollowness of it.

Now his journey to the dark side is complete. :coffee:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Permanent marriage could also be argued to literally be a permission for sex in exchange for a lifelong stipend. Those are the very basic requirements for marriage, if you only look at the law. And if two people want to get permanently married just to have sex, and the man pays the woman living expenses but they live in separate houses, don't love each other and so on, that's also a perfectly valid marriage Islamically. But that's not the ethical point of permanent marriage.

The problem with the above quote is it ignores a historical reality on the usage of mut'ah, which is said to have been introduced to support the urges of soldiers and men who were away from their wives during the early Islamic wars.

Furthermore, there is also lingual support to what sister @2Timeless has stated, as explained by one of the more knowledgable brothers;

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235058898-why-do-men-think-they-are-the-boss-during-mutah/?do=findComment&comment=3163509

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Carlzone said:

Now I know why I love Sayyid Sistani so much. Alhamdulillah weshokorr.

But shouldn't a believer want for others what he wants for himself? If he's ok with sleeping with a prostitute - shouldn't he be ok with his sister being a prostitute and sleeping with random men?

A believer should want his sister to only engage in that which is halal. I have already shown that iddah is an issue for Muslim women should they wish to have many mutahs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Sayyed Khamenei allows it, and some others do but from the top of my head I can't list them. Sayyed Al-Sistani doesn't allow it, as per obligatory precaution

l guess this is the best place to interject.

When l read a biography of Ayatollah Khomeini it said that while he was in Qom he knew many other students that did mutah but he never approved of it and never did it himself. His wife confirmed this after his demise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Carlzone said:

If he's ok with sleeping with a prostitute - shouldn't he be ok with his sister being a prostitute and sleeping with random men?

This is a  pointless argument. Do you believe that generally women who sell their bodies for money enjoy doing it? Do you think any dignified Muslim man would allow his sister to be a prostitute? On the flip side given a choice between a practising woman and a prostitute do you think any sane man would choose a prostitute to be his wife?? Do you realise that some of the rulings are merely things that are permissible under certain (extreme) circumstances and not recommended. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, starlight said:

Do you realise that some of the rulings are merely things that are permissible under certain (extreme) circumstances and not recommended. 

Yeah that's just how fiqh works, you can't technically make something harram if there's no textual evidence. I seriously wonder why users even bring these fatwas, like just to have a laugh? This is not acceptable from an ethical point of view imo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×