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In the Name of God بسم الله

Prophet Yunus REJECTED Wilayat????

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12 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Brother

Is Arabic your native language? If so tell me and if not then whose translation do you prefer the most?

You can refer to the Quranic verses in Arabic if you want. The post I linked has both Arabic and translations, and I did it in reference to the Arabic. I prefer you at least address key words in Arabic. 

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26 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

I went to the thread you mentioned, saw an inaccurate translation unfortunately, so asked you.

Did you find the argument that you asked for? On the exact post that I linked. Under Argument 5 & 13.

It would be nice if you said what relevant translation you meant, and how it would change the core of my argument. 

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5 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

With this black and white approach the following verse would be evidence to prove that all mumineen never do zulm:

[ Allah ] said, "Descend from Paradise - all, [your descendants] being enemies to one another. And if there should come to you guidance from Me - then whoever follows My guidance will neither go astray (zul), nor suffer. 20:123

This verse too, is going against your argument against ismah. Prophets are the guides, If prophets do mistakes or sins, that means the guidance is corrupt and they can no longer assumed as guides. The command of following the guidance (i.e., following the Prophets) would too become absurd.

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1 minute ago, Salsabeel said:

This verse too, is going against your argument against ismah. Prophets are the guides, If prophets do mistakes or sins, that means the guidance is corrupt and they can no longer assumed as guides. The command of following the guidance (i.e., following the Prophets) would too become absurd.

Isma doesn't mean infallibility so I'm not arguing that Arabic word that means protection. 

Anyway, to me it makes sense to have a fallible prophet just like we have fallible scholars and narrators that people follow. It's absurd to you but not to me. And I'm sure there are other people out there who think like me. And people who follow Quran the way I do. They 

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3 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

It's absurd to you but not to me. And I'm sure there are other people out there who think like me.

Then lets end it up in prayers that may Almighty Lord guides us all to the right path which has been mentioned as sirat al mustaqeem, towards the hablillah, towards the urwatul wuthqa "lan fisama laha".

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1 minute ago, Salsabeel said:

Then lets end it up in prayers that may Almighty Lord guides us all to the right path which has been mentioned as sirat al mustaqeem, towards the hablillah, towards the urwatul wuthqa "lan fisama laha".

I couldn't have said it better masha Allah!

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I went to that link but I did not find these two ayahs. While scrolling I saw incorrect interpretation of '(The muhammad) he frowned and turned away' ayah. Anyways.

This question of Arabic being your native language was asked after visiting that page itself so if you can answer it brother kindly?

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3 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

I went to that link but I did not find these two ayahs. While scrolling I saw incorrect interpretation of '(The muhammad) he frowned and turned away' ayah. Anyways.

This question of Arabic being your native language was asked after visiting that page itself so if you can answer it brother kindly?

OK, here let me copy-paste:

First aya you asked me to ponder on: 

Quote

Argument 5: Nor does he speak out of his desire. 53:3  

و ما ينطق عن الهوى

 

  • this is a general statement like the following ones, not to be taken literally:

A - الذين يوفون بعهد الله و لا ينقضون الميثاق

 Those who fulfill the covenant of Allah and do not break the contract 13:20

.. this verse does not mean that "people of understanding" referred to in previous verse, never ever break any contract ever.

B - كنتم خير أمة أخرجت للناس تأمرون بالمعروف و تنهون عن المنكر

You are the best nation produced for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong 3:110

.. again this verse talks about all muslims, and definitely despite the description here, the muslims don't enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong each and every time, without fail.

C - إن الله مع الذين اتقوا والذين هم محسنون

For Allah is with those who restrain themselves, and those who do good. 16:128

 

 

.. does this mean that those whom Allah is with always restrain themselves and only ever do good?

 

 

D - بلى من أسلم وجهه لله وهو محسن فله أجره عند ربه و لا خوف عليهم و لا هم يحزنون

 

 4 - Nay,- whoever submits his whole face to Allah and is a doer of good (muhsinun),- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 2:112

 

 

.. so does it mean that those will be rewarded who always do good without ever doing wrong ever?

 

Second aya you asked me to ponder on:

Quote

Argument 13: This most famous verse: " Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity, people of the House, and to purify you with purification." 33:33

 

 يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت و يطهركم تطهيرا

 

 

  • Looking at the word ليذهب or remove:

 

Many people believe that this means remove all impurity, which is not the case, as the word kul is not there. 

 

 

The word for remove is "Yuthhib"  يذهب

 

 

this "never" is a false assumption. here in this following aya Allah telling us that He removes anger from "believers" does that mean that the believers never get angry. if it was absolute it would be written yuthib kol or remove all .. 

 

 

و يذهب غيظ قلوبهم ويتوب الله على من يشاء و الله عليم حكيم

 

And remove the fury (in the believers') hearts. And Allah turns in forgiveness to whom He wills; and Allah is Knowing and Wise. 9:15

 

 

to compare:

 

 

يذهب عنكم الرجس  33:33

 

yuthhib aankum al rijs 33:33

 

remove from you the impurity / sin

 

 

يذهب غيظ قلوبهم 9:15

 

yuthhib ghaytha quloobihim 9:15

 

And remove the fury in their (believers) hearts. 9:15

 

 

  • Additionally,  as mentioned previously already, why would there be a need to remove impurity if there is none? Mistakes / impurity need to be present, if they are to be removed. If they were pure and sinless, then there would be no need for purification.

 

Your question concerning my Arabic "native" skills. Where does Arabic come from? What is 'classical' Arabic based on? You surely know the answer. It's based on the Quran. I am personally half Arab and writing from a currently Arab-speaking country, while married to an Arab. I believe that the Arabic in the Quran is accessible to all mankind, and that with a little work, any non-Arab can prove whatever they want via the Quran language logic itself. One does not need to be "Native Arab" to prove a point, or to understand the true meaning of words, grammar, and connections. I hope you understand what I mean. (that's why I didn't like the question, and I avoided it by telling you that I expect Arabic analysis of Quran, which is what counts)

Finally, your concern with the verse of Muhamad salalah3aleywa2aalihiwasalim that you mentioned, if you can copy-paste that part and tell me exactly what your point is, then I don't mind discussing it. I hope you clicked on the right part of the link btw. On the top right of the link there is an arrow pointing upwards diagonally tost the right side. Press this one, and it will take you straight to the post I am talking about. You will see many, many arguments and counter-arguments there that might interest you.

thank you brother and all the best!

 

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41 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

OK, here let me copy-paste:

First aya you asked me to ponder on: 

 

Second aya you asked me to ponder on:

 

Your question concerning my Arabic "native" skills. Where does Arabic come from? What is 'classical' Arabic based on? You surely know the answer. It's based on the Quran. I am personally half Arab and writing from a currently Arab-speaking country, while married to an Arab. I believe that the Arabic in the Quran is accessible to all mankind, and that with a little work, any non-Arab can prove whatever they want via the Quran language logic itself. One does not need to be "Native Arab" to prove a point, or to understand the true meaning of words, grammar, and connections. I hope you understand what I mean. (that's why I didn't like the question, and I avoided it by telling you that I expect Arabic analysis of Quran, which is what counts)

Finally, your concern with the verse of Muhamad salalah3aleywa2aalihiwasalim that you mentioned, if you can copy-paste that part and tell me exactly what your point is, then I don't mind discussing it. I hope you clicked on the right part of the link btw. On the top right of the link there is an arrow pointing upwards diagonally tost the right side. Press this one, and it will take you straight to the post I am talking about. You will see many, many arguments and counter-arguments there that might interest you.

thank you brother and all the best!

 

Sure one does not need to be an Native Arab to prove his/her point. I totally agree with you.

Actually the reason why I asked you this question is because of the fact that at many places the translation of ayahs are different to what it is actually being said in the ayah.

Thank you for answering my question on the two Ayah(s).

This ayah 'he frowned and turned away' many have interpreted it for being about RasoolALLAH(saww).

Anyway, I enjoyed sharing concerns with you in the matter

47 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Additionally,  as mentioned previously already, why would there be a need to remove impurity if there is none? Mistakes / impurity need to be present, if they are to be removed. If they were pure and sinless, then there would be no need for purification.

This is a Gem of a thing that you have mentioned.

A man came to a Masoom(asws) and asked the same question. He asked so before the nuzool of the ayah e tatheer, were Ahlul Bayt(asws) impure?.

Imam(asws) replied: Surah e ikhlas was revealed stating 'Qul hu wallahu ahad' so before the nuzool of this ayat was Allah not 'ahad'?. 

I mean ofcourse Allah is 'ahad' surah e ikhlas was revealed to inform us that Allah is 'ahad' and ayat e tatheer was revealed to inform 'Ahlul Bayt(asws) are pure'.

This is a story of a Masoom(asws).

Your points, concerns and the questions that you raise are highly intelligent and truly seeking knowledge (you raise questions with common sense and some are like me) for you and others if answered and I know the answers of some of it and I know who could tell you more but how do I say it to you, majority here will disagree and ban me on this forum. There are answers and clarifications with total common sense and with logic.

May Allah increase our knowledge when we truly seek.

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Brother @Asghar Ali Karbalai

I totally agree that most translations are not accurate, and I mostly copy paste translations that I find don't sabotage the point of the discussion. The important thing is that the key words relating to the specific discussion are translated or understood in a resonating way.

Concerning the comparison of tatheer and qul howa Allahu A7ad ..

well, in 33:33 it mentions a process of purification, but in surat ikhlas it is not so. In surat ikhlas Allah tells us "Say, He Allah is One". it does not say "Allah is becoming One." .. in Arabic that would be along the lines of Allah beytwa7ed .. 

it doesn't say Allah wishes to become One. But in Tatheer it says that. So i think logically the two can not be compared in my opinion. What do you think?

 

...

 

Thank you for your kind words. I noticed before I started posting recently, that you are much like me. You are a thinker, and are not afraid of the unconventional out-of-the-box approach. Masha Allah!

1 hour ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

May Allah increase our knowledge when we truly seek.

Ameeen ..

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On 11/3/2018 at 12:04 AM, Ralvi said:

He didn’t reject Wilayah but it was his microsecond DELAY in saying Ali that prompted his ‘punishment’

to people today they think this as a punishment just for Yunus, becuase he did wrong when in fact it was an example for the people, that THIS, this is what is intolerable to Allah, that he would punish an infallible because of a delay, which seems insignificant for us, but is in fact the very variable that reveals the true hearts of the believers. It was a lesson for us, so that we should not think of delaying in saying Ali yun waliyullah, or minimizing or downplaying or make it a small insignificant thing. You could be a complete monster but if even utter that Ali is your master truly in your heart, the you’ve already won heaven. That speaks volumes

The hadith in Bihar alanwar states "انكرها يونس فحبسه الله في بطن الحوت حتى اقربها" which is literally yunis rejected it. what do you say about this?

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