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In the Name of God بسم الله

Prophet Yunus REJECTED Wilayat????

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@Salsabeel

You can judge (ta7kum) the verses as you please. I like to keep it simple. He said that he was a zaalim, and he is referred to as maleem. Those terms are clear to me as the clearest crystal, so I don't like to use my own interpretation to override this. To me this is ma7kum, as these expressions are as clear as expressions get in the Quran, with a huge number of examples and contexts to back that he did a mistake or mistakes, like any human does mistakes - in my opinion 

Edited by 313 Seeker
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35 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

He said that he was a zaalim, and he is referred to as maleem. 

Ok, what I am trying to point you out is that was he considered "zalim" by Allah? Similar is the case with the word "muleem" (blameworthy), he was blaming himself for something not clearly mentioned in the verses of Quran hence the matter becomes mutashabeh, in my humble view point.

And what are the possible meanings of word "zalim". 

 

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@Salsabeel

Allah mentions him as blame worthy, not he himself. So I take Allah's word for it. Plus a momin can do zulm. Like you and me, we hope to be among the mumineen, yet we have surely been Zalemeen on countless occasions. As long as Allah forgives, it gets blotted out and we remain mumineen. There is no evidence that people anybody who is momin never made or makes a mistake. 

On a bigger picture of things, the sequence of the story speaks for itself. The man did something wrong (zulm) and became blame worthy. After this he called out to God for help, and God forgave him his mistake(s), regardless of what they may be. Whether he did not recognize Ali bin Abi Taleb as the Khalifa of the future, or whether he did not recognize the Khalifa of his time, or whether he didn't bother to spread the message of monotheism (that's the most popular narrative of why he was punished by being swallowed by a marine creature), the message is clear. Repent! Admit your mistakes and understand that the trouble you are in is from your own doing. Repent in the way of the Prophets when they did mistakes, so that we can be forgiven and removed from our own black holes. That is the message here to me, and the focus here is God, and not the perfection of some human beings. We should be wary of the word zulm in the Quran, even as Allah uses it in reference to Prophets, and not downplay it. Certain words carry certain energies, and making peace with a word like zulm seems wrong and dangerous to me. Regardless of who does it, zulm - or wrongdoing--is a mistake, and that's why the logic sequence is always that the Prophets repent and get forgiven. 

I believe that it is better to agree that the Prophets were forgive (like Adam was after the first Hajj), while our concern should be if WE get forgiven or not. Those Prophets already made it. But we didn't. The purpose of those stories is to set examples of the whole mistake-repentance -forgiveness cycle. It's like an equation where we can not just take out variables and still have things add up. 

Mistake + Repentance = Forgiveness 

Zulm + tawba = ghfr 

 

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1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

Allah mentions him as blame worthy, not he himself. So I take Allah's word for it

Lets once again see the verse:

Surah As-Saaffat, Verse 142:
فَالْتَقَمَهُ الْحُوتُ وَهُوَ مُلِيمٌ

So the fish swallowed him while he did that for which he blamed himself
(English - Shakir)

"Muleem" not only means blameworthy, it is derived from the root ل۔و۔م and it can also mean self accusing e.g "Lawwamah" is derived from the same root.

Secondly, lets assume blameworthy is the meaning, but blameworthy for what? Blameworthy for being over burden the boat or blameworthy for getting the draw in favor of jumping himself into sea or what? What was his mistake?

1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

zulm - or wrongdoing--is a mistake, and that's why the logic sequence is always that the Prophets repent and get forgiven. 

I would like to keep the discussions as per the wordings of the verses. Here is the verse:

Surah Al-Anbiya, Verse 87:
وَذَا النُّونِ إِذ ذَّهَبَ مُغَاضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَّن نَّقْدِرَ عَلَيْهِ فَنَادَىٰ فِي الظُّلُمَاتِ أَن لَّا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا أَنتَ سُبْحَانَكَ إِنِّي كُنتُ مِنَ الظَّالِمِينَ

And Yunus, when he went away in wrath, so he thought that We would not straiten him, so he called out among afflictions: There is no god but Thou, glory be to Thee; surely I am of those who make themselves to suffer loss.
(English - Shakir)

Who is saying that "inni kunto minal zalimeen"? Obviously it was Prophet Yunus. What Allah said in response to this:

Surah Al-Anbiya, Verse 88:
فَاسْتَجَبْنَا لَهُ وَنَجَّيْنَاهُ مِنَ الْغَمِّ وَكَذَٰلِكَ نُنجِي الْمُؤْمِنِينَ

So We responded to him and delivered him from the grief and thus do We deliver the believers.
(English - Shakir)

"Fastajabna" as well as "Najjaynahu minal gham" both phrases does not mention any mistake. It is not like the case of Prophet Adam which we have already discussed in detail.

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Now here is what al-islam.org mentions:

1. The first question against 'ismah in this passage is about the action of Prophet Yúnus: he left his people when the punishment subsided without him knowing about it. Was Yúnus angry at Allah?

The most that this verse says is that Yúnus went away in anger; it does not say that he was angry with Allah. So we have no choice but to interpret this verse by saying that Yúnus left the people while he was angry with them for not believing him.

2. The second question is about the sentence: “He thought that We would never have power (naqdira) over him.” Some people have taken the word naqdira in the meaning of “having power,” thus imply that Yúnus went away in anger thinking that God “would never have power over him”.

Firstly, if this meaning is to be taken seriously, then Yúnus would become a kafir, an unbeliever!
Secondly, the word naqdira (which is from qadr) has been used many times in the Qur'an for “restricting of the provision” by Allah. For example, in chapter 13, verse 26, Allah says, “Allah expands and straitens (yaqdiru) the provision for whomsoever He pleases.” Or, for instance, in chapter 89, verses 15-16, Allah says: “As for man: when his Lord tries him by treating him with honour and giving him an easy life, he says 'My Lords honours me.' But when He tries him by straitening (qadara) his provision for him he says, 'My Lord has disgraced me.'”

In conclusion, we can say that the first sentence of the passage under discussion means: And (remember) Yúnus, when he went away in anger; and he thought that We would never straiten [the provision] over him.” This, at most, means that Yúnus thought that because he was God's prophet, his Lord would never straiten his provision for him; he had taken Allah's provision for granted. It has nothing to do with issue of Allah having no power over him.

3. If Yúnus had committed no sin by leaving his people, then why did he say that, “surely I am one of the ¨alimeen,the unjust”?

As mentioned earlier in the case of Prophet Adam (a.s.), the word ¨ulm does not necessarily imply “injustice” and “sin”. It also means “to make haste” and “to come to harm”. Any of these two meanings are compatible with the concept of 'ismah and also correct in the case of Prophet Yúnus.

The verse would then mean as follows: “There is no god but You, glory be to Thee; surely I am one of those who make haste” or “There is no god but You, glory be to Thee; surely I am one of those who come to harm”.

This explanation is further supported by the next verse in which Allah says, “So We responded to him and delivered him from the grief, and thus do We deliver the believers.” The ¨ulmmentioned in the prayer of Yúnus is explained by Allah as ”al-ghamm—grief”, and not as sin or injustice; that is why Allah said ”najjayna—delivered” and not “forgiven”.

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@Salsabeel

The biggest problem in the above logic is how translations are made without reference or backing. Almost all people translate zulm as wrong-doing. What ticks me off is when people say things like one word zulm means "those who make themselves to suffer loss" how can one word zalemeen be translated into all that? There is no mention of "self" or nafs in the word zaalim. Zaalim itself doesn't even specify zaalim of whom or what. And anyway, zulm El nafs is also a mistake. So the claim is that zulm means loss. Where is the proof that it is a synonym for the known word khusara for instance. Everybody knows the word khusr means loss. Where is the proof from Quran or ahadeeth that we can interpret the word zalemeen as

1. Loss

2.of self

3. Suffering 

So all your arguments are new meanings. Saying "it also means X", is not enough. What is the proof that the other meaning is true? Without proof and reference, we better stick to the known and proven translations of words. The same counts for the al-islam.org article. They do the same. They make statements of new meanings that are definitely not supported by majority of translators, and they expect us to take their word for it without proof. Sorry, that doesn't fly with people like me. I follow nobody blindly. 

So please, if you want to follow and continue this discussion with me, then bring proofs for each and every word you use. There aren't many. Start by showing from sa7i7 narrations how zulm can be anything else other than mistake, after having found a foundation for this claim from the Quran. If you can't find foundation from the Quran to at least make a base for your argument, then don't go to hadiths. That's if you want to debate this with me. Just saying "another translations is xyz", is not an argument that can convince me of anything. I need proof from Quran and then hadiths. 

And Allah refers to several Prophets as zalemeen. Other words used I the Quran worth considering are khata2 and su2, which are also used in reference to Prophets. They do mistakes, repent and get forgiven. Like any other mumin.

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54 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

The biggest problem in the above logic is how translations are made without reference or backing. 

The biggest problem in your whole argument is that it is giving the impression that there is contradiction in quran. Here is one big reason;

Surah Al-Anbiya, Verse 27:
لَا يَسْبِقُونَهُ بِالْقَوْلِ وَهُم بِأَمْرِهِ يَعْمَلُونَ

They do not precede Him in speech and (only) according to His commandment do they act.
(English - Shakir)

This is one of the reason dictating the ismah of Prophets. And obviously there are many other verses supporting the ismah.

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14 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

The biggest problem in your whole argument is that it is giving the impression that there is contradiction in quran. Here is one big reason;

Surah Al-Anbiya, Verse 27:
لَا يَسْبِقُونَهُ بِالْقَوْلِ وَهُم بِأَمْرِهِ يَعْمَلُونَ

They do not precede Him in speech and (only) according to His commandment do they act.
(English - Shakir)

This is one of the reason dictating the ismah of Prophets. And obviously there are many other verses supporting the ismah.

Actually I see it the opposite way. I am saying that there is no contradiction in the use of words such as zulm, khata2, anaab, maleem, etc. 

To make things simpler let's agree that Prophets did "zulm". Most all translators will translate it as "wrong". And zaalim as "wrong-doer". If that is the case, then surely they did mistakes/wrong. Please prove from the Quran in reference to this word that occurs 315 times in 12 different forms that it can mean anything other than wrong or mistake (or what you and/or al-islam.org claim). Especially in context to the verses including the Prophets. Let's start from here instead of spreading our arguments to thin. 

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27 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Most all translators will translate it as "wrong". And zaalim as "wrong-doer". If that is the case, then surely they did mistakes/wrong.

Just one argument is sufficient. Once you concluded, even for a while, that the chosen ones/Prophets were "wrongdoers" then what would happen:

أَلاَ لَعْنَةُ اللّهِ عَلَى الظَّالِمِينَ

11:18

The la'nah is upon zalimeen. 

Therefore, there has to be different meanings of zulm, you cannot technically apply "wrongdoer" on the chosen ones.

Secondly, Allah orders the servants to obey Him and His messengers, who are equivalent, according to verse 4: 80. So, if the prophet be not infallible, it is a contradictory order. In other verses, He orders: Then do not obey the deniers (68: 8), And do not obey every worthless habitual swearer (68: 10), ...do not obey from among them a sinner or ungrateful[disbeliever] (76: 24). So, the messengers are to be obeyed, the sinners are not to be obeyed, the result is that the messengers are not sinful & wrongdoers.

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5 hours ago, 786:) said:

Imam Ali chose the prophets? If that is not ascribing partners to Allah then I am not sure what is. Sad to see only a few people stand up to that compromise on Tawheed.

If that’s what you think that’s your problem. I’m not going to help with your problem. 

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5 hours ago, 786:) said:

Let me guess, he played Rock Paper Scissors with Prophet Muhammad to be the seal of prophets?

To even say such thing is reveals more about you than anything. And it’s deplorable to even suggest this. If you don’t understand, why comment? You’re never going to understand. Just go worry about yourself and live your life 

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52 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Just one argument is sufficient. Once you concluded, even for a while, that the chosen ones/Prophets were "wrongdoers" then what would happen:

أَلاَ لَعْنَةُ اللّهِ عَلَى الظَّالِمِينَ

11:18

The la'nah is upon zalimeen. 

Therefore, there has to be different meanings of zulm, you cannot technically apply "wrongdoer" on the chosen ones.

Secondly, Allah orders the servants to obey Him and His messengers, who are equivalent, according to verse 4: 80. So, if the prophet be not infallible, it is a contradictory order. In other verses, He orders: Then do not obey the deniers (68: 8), And do not obey every worthless habitual swearer (68: 10), ...do not obey from among them a sinner or ungrateful[disbeliever] (76: 24). So, the messengers are to be obeyed, the sinners are not to be obeyed, the result is that the messengers are not sinful & wrongdoers.

With this black and white approach the following verse would be evidence to prove that all mumineen never do zulm:

[ Allah ] said, "Descend from Paradise - all, [your descendants] being enemies to one another. And if there should come to you guidance from Me - then whoever follows My guidance will neither go astray (zul), nor suffer. 20:123

If you think of it every prophet who made a mistake and became a zaalim had to really suffer for it and pay. So the spirit of laan, or curse was upon them in a way until they were forgiven. Things aren't black and white. 

 

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41 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Well there are people who contest it. Like I am doing now. I'm surely not the first contestor of this - for me - falseness. 

I’m talking in terms of Quran. Your personal views and bias are in contest with Quran?

What exactly is it that you’re in contest with? 

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43 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Well there are people who contest it. Like I am doing now. I'm surely not the first contestor of this - for me - falseness. 

the post you replied this with was to another user not you

the prophets infallibility is in the Quran though and it’s also the logical route when it comes to spreaders of God’s message. They cannot be fallible, the religion wouldn’t work otherwise 

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13 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

I’m talking in terms of Quran. Your personal views and bias are in contest with Quran?

What exactly is it that you’re in contest with? 

No I'm contesting what I see as a false notion of thinking that prophets made no mistakes. Because this notion goes against the Quran in my opinion. 

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12 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

the post you replied this with was to another user not you

the prophets infallibility is in the Quran though and it’s also the logical route when it comes to spreaders of God’s message. They cannot be fallible, the religion wouldn’t work otherwise 

OK that's your opinion. I have my opinion, and the religion works for me alhamdulilah. My prophet is a human like all of us and does mistakes, eats, breathes, repents and gets forgiven. 

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3 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

OK that's your opinion. I have my opinion, and the religion works for me alhamdulilah. My prophet is a human like all of us and does mistakes, eats, breathes, repents and gets forgiven. 

But that is not a matter of opinion. That’s not my opinion at all. Is The last Propeht the same to you? 

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56 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

But that is not a matter of opinion. That’s not my opinion at all. Is The last Propeht the same to you? 

You are of the opinion that prophets made no mistakes, I am of the opinion that all humans /bani Adam's including Adam, made mistakes. Correct? 

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4 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

You are of the opinion that prophets made no mistakes, I am of the opinion that all humans /bani Adam's including Adam, made mistakes. Correct? 

And I have created you in ranks

can you deny this?

we are not all the same. 

Infallibility or being a masuum is a central fact to propehthood, but more so for being the seal and word of god. Is the Propeht not the word of god? Then how could he be the same as you and me? What about 33:33? 

Please this issue shouldn’t even be an issue. You have an opinion ok, but there is also the reality separate from your opinion

and the reality is the Muhammed and ahl Muhammed are the first noor come in human form to earth. They were not ‘ born’ they were sent. Just like the Quran says. Their creations is in fact different from us. They are infallibles 

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40 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

@Ralvi

It might be a fact to you, but to me it's far from a fact. Definitely the prophets were all born to mothers and are human like us. You've got your beliefs and I've got mine. There are different opinions out there. 

Not right my brother, Prophets(asws) are not 'human like us'.

If Prophet Muhammad(saww) was a human, brother, 'just like us' then he would have a shadow as well where as he never had a shadow,

Both shia and sunni muslims agree onto this.

And then we have 'Ayat e Tatheer' in Surah Ahzab in which Allah is keeping away the 'rijs' 'najasah' away from Ahlul Bayt(asws) the people of house hold of the Prophet's(saww) family(asws) so they are not like us either. They are away from Najasah.

The ayat of 'Ana bashar mislukum' 'I am a bashar like all of you' is so that people should know that Allah send Prophet(saww) like a human because ofcourse brother it would be a bit different if a light would appear in sky and talk to people to guide them so that us why in a human form he(saww) was sent so to make things easier for us human beings brother.

I mean to say that you think brother about it that why would Allah send somebody as prophet(asws) who is bound to make mistakes and is not different in terms of mistakes.

I mean would not he send a perfectionist so that we seek the perfect way of living this life and in hereafter, this itself would be a lack of process if somebody(asws) bound to make mistakes was sent among those who were already making many mistakes keeping in mind their biggest enemy shaitan was misguiding them who is very very very smart.

The lessons that we hear about prophets(asws) like Nabi Younus(asws) is just another way to tell us what to do in tough times dear brother.

Edited by Asghar Ali Karbalai
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@Asghar Ali Karbalai

Thank you brother but I disagree. I'm a minority of a minority of a minority, and have lots of hope that I'm right. It is wrong to talk with too much confidence I believe, because Allahu Aalam. My opinion on the issue is totally different than yours, and I'm discussing this with various brothers since almost 10 years now. 

I follow what is clearly written in the Quran, so if it's written that prophet is human like us, then so it is. If it's written that prophets made mistakes, then this is a reality to me. 

I have no problem in following "just a human" like myself, who struggles like me, and makes mistakes like me. I have no problem with that and love this prophet and witness they are all Prophets and worship their God. 

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Some time ago a knowledgeable brother called @Ozzysaid something smart (BTW I don't think he shares my beliefs in this specific topic). He said that unless there is a good reason to not take God's words literally, we should take God's words literally.

So if God says he did wrong, then it's wrong. If he's blame worthy, then he was. If he was forgiven and saved, then this is reality to me.

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1 minute ago, 313 Seeker said:

@Asghar Ali Karbalai

Thank you brother but I disagree. I'm a minority of a minority of a minority, and have lots of hope that I'm right. It is wrong to talk with too much confidence I believe, because Allahu Aalam. My opinion on the issue is totally different than yours, and I'm discussing this with various brothers since almost 10 years now. 

I follow what is clearly written in the Quran, so if it's written that prophet is human like us, then so it is. If it's written that prophets made mistakes, then this is a reality to me. 

I have no problem in following "just a human" like myself, who struggles like me, and makes mistakes like me. I have no problem with that and love this prophet and witness they are all Prophets and worship their God. 

I totally understand your opinion.

Could you kindly just ponder on these two ayahs for sometime and then tell me what you understand from below?

1. Nor does he speak from whim. It is nothing but Revelation revealed.

(Surah al-Najm: 3-4)

2. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.

(Surah Al-Ahzab: 33:33) Half of it.

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12 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

I totally understand your opinion.

Could you kindly just ponder on these two ayahs for sometime and then tell me what you understand from below?

1. Nor does he speak from whim. It is nothing but Revelation revealed.

(Surah al-Najm: 3-4)

2. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.

(Surah Al-Ahzab: 33:33) Half of it.

Thank you brother. You seem to be knowledgeable from your posts and topics that I read from you earlier. Here is a post on a thread I started under username 'Muhamad', and this post is when I was 'peace seeker'. Scroll down to bold font "Argument 5" and "Argument 13" (you'll have to scroll quite bit), and you'll see some results of my pondering on these. 

Thanks 

 

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46 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

I totally understand your opinion.

Could you kindly just ponder on these two ayahs for sometime and then tell me what you understand from below?

1. Nor does he speak from whim. It is nothing but Revelation revealed.

(Surah al-Najm: 3-4)

2. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.

(Surah Al-Ahzab: 33:33) Half of it.

I don’t think This brother wants to learn, he is stuck on his opinion. Let him be. God guides who he guides. Like he said his opinion hasn’t changed for 10 yrs. I don’t think there really was a discussion here. Let’s leave him be. We all live our lives and we will all die

peace

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44 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Thank you brother. You seem to be knowledgeable from your posts and topics that I read from you earlier. Here is a post on a thread I started under username 'Muhamad', and this post is when I was 'peace seeker'. Scroll down to bold font "Argument 5" and "Argument 13" (you'll have to scroll quite bit), and you'll see some results of my pondering on these. 

Thanks 

 

Brother

Is Arabic your native language? If so tell me and if not then whose translation do you prefer the most?

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19 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

I don’t think This brother wants to learn, he is stuck on his opinion. Let him be. God guides who he guides. Like he said his opinion hasn’t changed for 10 yrs. I don’t think there really was a discussion here. Let’s leave him be. We all live our lives and we will all die

peace

True @Allah guides whom he wills.

What else can I say brother.

I thought this brother is in this topic from Ten years so he is really willing to learn anything relevant and that is why I am talking to him.

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3 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Brother

Is Arabic your native language? If so tell me and if not then whose translation do you prefer the most?

I went to the thread you mentioned, saw an inaccurate translation unfortunately, so asked you.

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