Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Islandsandmirrors

Female submissiveness

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

I don’t think that people always confuse the two. I think that in many cases they CHOOSE to prioritise culture, personal preferences or society norms over religion. Even if you quote the Quran, hadeeths and the Ayatollah they follow to some people, they will still remain adamant about following their ideology over religion. They will turn a blind eye to the before mentioned as they choose to remain ignorant about religion when it suits them.

Edited by Aflower

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

@Islandsandmirrors - a husband can forbid his wife from leaving the house or going to a particular place and she has to abide by his edict...islamically

But what if that man is, by nature, is controlling or abusive? What then? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Islandsandmirrors said:

But what if that man is, by nature, is controlling or abusive? What then? 

The sin would be on the man for being an abusive husband.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

Maybe some men just prefer a housewife over a working wife, everyone has their preferences.

Surely that's something to be discussed before marrying?

It’s not up to any man to decide wether a woman works or not. If a man wants a housewife, he should find one who is willing and her choice to stay at home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

Maybe some men just prefer a housewife over a working wife, everyone has their preferences.

Surely that's something to be discussed before marrying?

Yet people change. A lot of my friends are married couples, and almost all, after approximately 6 years, change. They start seeking other life plans, and their parthers will have to respect them in order to keep a healthy marriage.

If this authority is legitimized (and by authority I mean that it is the man who decides the life plans of his wife or has the last say), it doesn't mean that opression is. Plans shall be discussed in a relationship, and a man shall respect the decisions of his wife, regardless of the authority he has, as long as these plans don't harm other people. It is not meant to play with your partner's plans (work, studies, fashion, speaking, friends, etc.). It's evidently an unfair behaviour. I see this as I see mutah, there is the law, but there is also the respectful, ethical and empathic behaviour.

---

Problem is highly cultural. Here in my country, 50 years ago, there were housewives schools where they taught women how to iron clothes, prepare food, etc. Disgusting. In my own house I remember when I was a kid hearing things like "if you are lazy to cook, I hope Allah blesses you with a wife soon". I remember telling mom that I would cook and clean, as I never understood normalizing such injustice lol. These disgusting comments are normalized and repeated throughout our lives. If an old granny says it, let it be, but we should be able to imagine another future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

It’s not up to any man to decide wether a woman works or not. If a man wants a housewife, he should find one who is willing and her choice to stay at home.

It is if it's what they agree on before marrying. If a woman wants to work someday, like I said, she should mention it before marriage. And if a man wants a housewife, he should mention it before marriage. If neither mention this before marriage in this day and age, both are too immature to marry.

15 minutes ago, Bakir said:

there were housewives schools where they taught women how to iron clothes, prepare food, etc. Disgusting.

Why so disgusting? This, in and of itself, isn't disgusting at all. However people using it as an excuse for men to be lazy is disgusting like you said, but that's their problem, not the problem of the school.

17 minutes ago, Bakir said:

I remember telling mom that I would cook and clean, as I never understood normalizing such injustice lol.

Forget normalizing injustice. It's just being normal. As a normal man, you should help, and be self-sufficient when it comes to cleanliness and sustaining one's life lool. After all, Ahlulbayt (a.s) helped around the house a lot.

But at the same time, women shouldn't use it as an excuse to sloth around at times or get all feisty. This is the problem in modern day, that women demand their men help.

Sayeda Fatema (a.s) promised to take care of all the housework and what not (despite this Imam Ali (a.s) still helped), but it's the intention as well as the action that separates a good woman from a rebellious one.

Basically, If my woman asks me to do housework or lazes around, I won't lift a finger. But if she expresses and tries her best to take care of everything, then I'll force my help on her a whole lot =).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

But what if that man is, by nature, is controlling or abusive? What then

Then that has nothing to do with your post of confusing Islam with culture and thus is a completely different topic. There are many men like this in the world irrespective of whether they follow Islam or not. They don’t just try to control their wives, but their sisters, mothers, female colleagues etc. too.

Understandably people may associate this as being a trait that is ingrained in or specific to certain cultures (especially if they see/hear it happening a lot in their/particular communities/cultures). But in reality, men like this exist who come from every culture, religion and walk of life - even the most progressive and educated families in the west.

On a side note there are many women who are controlling and abusive too. I’m sure @rkazmi33 would agree. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Aflower

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

You've triggered @Sumerian

Lol a lil bit.

Truth is a man has the Islamic right to not allow his wife to leave the house for whatever reason - save Hajj and visiting relatives. So if he wants to force his wife to be a housewife, he can, technically. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, hasanhh said:

EXCEPT the MOSQUE --l know that is Sunnah, so does Shi'a have the same or different?

 

7 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I believe it includes mosque

As a note, the reference is Sahih al-Bukhari Book12 #832 and Book62 #165.

What are the Shi'a references?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

To add to that, from an Islamic point of view, a woman is not obligated the least bit to cook and clean for her husband. In fact, she can even ask him to pay her for any housework if she so desires. That the man seeks to provide for the family and the woman looks after the affairs of the house may be part of Islamic ethics and a relatively efficient division of labour, but it is not a responsibility or obligation for a woman.

What exactly is the responsibility or obligation for a woman towards her husband? Or are there none? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually as far as I know women are encouraged to be submissive towards their husbands in Islam. The husband has the last word, so women need to make sure they marry reasonable men.

If I remember correctly there is a hadith that states something along the lines of...if there is anyone a woman should do sujood to after Allah SWT it is her husband. 

 

If you want to work/study etc after marriage you should put that in your contract. 

 

I was about to marry an Iraqi lawyer once. At that point of time I didn't know so much about my rights so I wouldn't have put any conditions in my contract. Luckily something slipped out of his mouth. He said after we get married I won't let you continue your studies. I said bye bye. He then tried to bribe me with money. Unfortunately there's not enough money in this world to compensate a woman for being married to a jerk. I'm not saying that men who want housewives are jerks. But he didn't say a word about it before this point so I didn't expect that.

I'm not against the housewife lifestyle at all but at that point of time I didn't want that. These things can change over time so if you know that you're the kind of person who changes her mind every now and then you should put that into your contract just in case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

What exactly is the responsibility or obligation for a woman towards her husband? Or are there none? 

Obedience, not being able to reject the husband's advances, etc...id say those are pretty big obligations. 

Edited by 2Timeless

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, just a muslim said:

What exactly is the responsibility or obligation for a woman towards her husband? Or are there none? 

Sleeping with her husband when he wants it and not leaving the house without his permission  (unless she has put a free mobility clause in her contract).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When my parents married my mother was forced to give up her job because at that time married women were legally barred working (except for teachers, for some reason). Also they were basically forced by society to marry as unmarried mothers could be locked up in religious institutions and have their "illegitimate" children taken from them. Nothing happened to the father, of course. Also, contraception and divorce were illegal.  Our constitution still states that mothers belong in the home. It's so backwards and shameful. 

Just an aside...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

But what if that man is, by nature, is controlling or abusive? What then? 

She can talk with him. If that doesn't work, she can ask relatives or others to intervene. If that doesn't work, she can ask him to divorce her. 

Marriage is a huge risk for women. Better to know the husband well enough to trust him that this won't happen before agreeing to marry. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Maybe some men just prefer a housewife over a working wife, everyone has their preferences.

Surely that's something to be discussed before marrying?

 

10 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

It’s not up to any man to decide wether a woman works or not. If a man wants a housewife, he should find one who is willing and her choice to stay at home.

I don't believe there is disagreement between these two posts. Both appear to be saying if a man wants to marry a housewife, he should choose a wife who also wants to be a housewife.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, notme said:

Being a housewife and being submissive are not synonymous. I

I agree with everything you've said, but it's easy for a woman to view those two as synonymous with the wrong man and the wrong ideology. If she's a weak woman and unaware of her own rights, she'll allow her husband to unfairly dominate her and abuse the power she's given him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the issue arises when we start to believe that it’s out of Islam to be submissive to a man. We have nothing in the Quran that says to do so, but it mostly says that men have a degree of responsibility and are the protectors of their family.

We have hadiths that are questionable that go against what the Quran teaches us. Allah always says in the Quran to worship Him and to obey Him. That submissiveness to Allah is associated with piety. Mary (AS) had no husband, and never married, yet there is an entire surah dedicated to her for being the best of women and was said to be of the submissive ones to Allah. The Quran never says be submissive to man and he gets the last word every time, to never leave the house without his permission, etc. 

Hadiths which go against the Quran are automatically discarded. Women have equal say in a marriage according to Islam and to ask for basic rights such as studying after marriage (when it is every Muslim’s right and responsibility to seek education.) or leaving the house whenever she wants in a contact is pitiful and not out of Islam. This is all cultural. Marriage is not a contract of slavery unless she says she wants to be free. Marriage is to make two people halal for each other. That’s it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately, sisters, these statements should be directed to the jurists who base their entire lives on understanding Islamic Fiqh - and who have ruled that males have authority in matters of leaving the house and other things.

This is an authentic hadith often quoted in Fiqhi circles on this issue;

A woman came to the Messenger of Allāh صلى الله عليه واله and said: O’ Messenger of Allāh! What is the right of the husband over the wife? He said to her: She obeys him and does not disobey him, does not give anything in charity from her house except with his permission, she does not keep a voluntary fast without his permission and does not prevent him from herself even if she be on hunchback. She does not leave her house but with his permission; if she leaves without his permission, the angels of the heaven, the angels of the earth, the angels of wrath and the angels of mercy damn her until she returns to her house. So she said: O’ Messenger of Allāh! Who among the people has the greatest right on the man? He said: His parents. She said: Who among the people has the greatest right over the woman? He said: Her husband. She said: So do I have a right over him similar to what he has over me? He said: No, not [even] one in a hundred! She said: By the One Who sent you as a Prophet with the truth, no man shall ever own my neck.

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/man-l-yauruh-al-faqh/right-of-husband-over-the-wife

This hadith, and others, have been ruled authentic. There is nothing in the Holy Qur'an which contradicts this belief, on most of the Fiqhi issues in this religion the Holy Qur'an is silent, and this issue is no different. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

This hadith, and others, have been ruled authentic. There is nothing in the Holy Qur'an which contradicts this belief, on most of the Fiqhi issues in this religion the Holy Qur'an is silent, and this issue is no different

So then according to this hadith, men are superior to women? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

So then according to this hadith, men are superior to women? 

No, it's just certain rights men have over women.

Allah created mothers to naturally have more love towards their children (vice versa),  but it doesn't mean that they're superior to men.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

No, it's just certain rights men have over women.

Allah has created mothers to naturally have more love towards their children (vice versa),  but it doesn't mean that they're superior to men.

But all the rights the man has over his wife are not reciprocated. They all suggest the wife's role is to solely please and obey her husband. To me, there seems to be no equality, the things mentioned in the hadith make men look superior to women. For example, 

 

25 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

have a right over him similar to what he has over me? He said: No, not [even] one in a hundred!

This is more than just a difference in rights and responsibilities. The man clearly has the upper hand and is superior.

Edit- I also just wanted to add, I don't understand why men have so many rights over their wives. What have they done that makes them worthy of it? It seems to me that women sacrifice the most by getting married. They lose alot of freedom. It is the woman who gets pregnant and goes through the horrors of childbirth, and dedicates most of her life worrying about her children from everything. What is it that men have that makes them deserving of such rights and power? Note, I am not questioning Allah's wisdom or the hadiths etc so if anyone thinks that, dont bother. I'm simply interested in understanding the reasoning behind the imbalance of power. 

Edited by 2Timeless

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...