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In the Name of God بسم الله

Imamah vs Khilafa contradiction

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Leibniz

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Given that it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams and the last one would be Al-Mahdi would go into occultation. All Imams were killed one way or the other and Al-Mahdi only escaped to save himself.

Now suppose Ali was given the Caliphate and he was followed by Hassan and so on as Caliphs then there would not have been 12 Imams or atleast Al-Mahdi would not have gone into occultation as he would have been the Caliph.

So , Abu Bakr just paved the way for the Imamah to be 12 by capturing the Caliphate and Abu Bakr did not have option as it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams which could only have been possible if Abu Bakr had snatched the Caliphate from Ali.Had not Abu Bakr not done that and affairs of Caliphate had got run per shia demands , there would not have been 12 Imams and Al-Mahdi.

Is not it an obvious contradiction? 9

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1 hour ago, Leibniz said:

Given that it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams and the last one would be Al-Mahdi would go into occultation. All Imams were killed one way or the other and Al-Mahdi only escaped to save himself.

Now suppose Ali was given the Caliphate and he was followed by Hassan and so on as Caliphs then there would not have been 12 Imams or atleast Al-Mahdi would not have gone into occultation as he would have been the Caliph.

So , Abu Bakr just paved the way for the Imamah to be 12 by capturing the Caliphate and Abu Bakr did not have option as it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams which could only have been possible if Abu Bakr had snatched the Caliphate from Ali.Had not Abu Bakr not done that and affairs of Caliphate had got run per shia demands , there would not have been 12 Imams and Al-Mahdi.

Is not it an obvious contradiction? 9

Suppose Adam didn't not eat from the Tree. We would all be in heaven. There would be no Quran, no Prophet Muhammad (saw).

Is not it an obvious contradiction? 10

Edited by ShiaMan14
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5 hours ago, Leibniz said:

Given that it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams and the last one would be Al-Mahdi would go into occultation. All Imams were killed one way or the other and Al-Mahdi only escaped to save himself.

Now suppose Ali was given the Caliphate and he was followed by Hassan and so on as Caliphs then there would not have been 12 Imams or atleast Al-Mahdi would not have gone into occultation as he would have been the Caliph.

So , Abu Bakr just paved the way for the Imamah to be 12 by capturing the Caliphate and Abu Bakr did not have option as it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams which could only have been possible if Abu Bakr had snatched the Caliphate from Ali.Had not Abu Bakr not done that and affairs of Caliphate had got run per shia demands , there would not have been 12 Imams and Al-Mahdi.

Is not it an obvious contradiction? 9

If there wasn’t satan to misguide then there would be no need for prophets to guide. 

The point that we are making here is that the creation is necessarily constituted of contraries, opposites and conflicts. (Here/there, night/day, up/down, beauty/ugly, dark/light, good/evil).  Without this yin and yang there cannot possibly be a creation (it is inconceivable).  

So, Satan must necessarily exist, there had to be a Satan and therefore there was a Satan.  This is what you call God’s Qadar and decree.  God decreed both the good and the evil (as He says in the Quran).  This does not mean that Satan doesn’t have any freewill, but rather what this means is that Satan’s freewill to misguide fits wisely into place in God’s eternal knowledge.  God doesn’t make things into what they are, He simply gives existence to those very things which He eternally knows.  He doesn’t make an apple into an apple.  Apples have already been eternally known to God (He simply gave the apple its existence).  In the same way, Satans free choice to misguide is eternally known to God, He simply gave it existence. 

Edited by eThErEaL
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6 hours ago, Leibniz said:

Given that it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams and the last one would be Al-Mahdi would go into occultation. All Imams were killed one way or the other and Al-Mahdi only escaped to save himself.

Now suppose Ali was given the Caliphate and he was followed by Hassan and so on as Caliphs then there would not have been 12 Imams or atleast Al-Mahdi would not have gone into occultation as he would have been the Caliph.

So , Abu Bakr just paved the way for the Imamah to be 12 by capturing the Caliphate and Abu Bakr did not have option as it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams which could only have been possible if Abu Bakr had snatched the Caliphate from Ali.Had not Abu Bakr not done that and affairs of Caliphate had got run per shia demands , there would not have been 12 Imams and Al-Mahdi.

Is not it an obvious contradiction? 9

Salam

your contradiction doesnt even make sense.

So you're saying that Abu Bakr did them a favour now

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7 hours ago, Leibniz said:

So , Abu Bakr just paved the way for the Imamah to be 12 by capturing the Caliphate and Abu Bakr did not have option as it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams which could only have been possible if Abu Bakr had snatched the Caliphate from Ali.

The pipe looks cracked to me! 

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12 hours ago, Leibniz said:

Given that it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams and the last one would be Al-Mahdi would go into occultation. All Imams were killed one way or the other and Al-Mahdi only escaped to save himself.

Now suppose Ali was given the Caliphate and he was followed by Hassan and so on as Caliphs then there would not have been 12 Imams or atleast Al-Mahdi would not have gone into occultation as he would have been the Caliph.

So , Abu Bakr just paved the way for the Imamah to be 12 by capturing the Caliphate and Abu Bakr did not have option as it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams which could only have been possible if Abu Bakr had snatched the Caliphate from Ali.Had not Abu Bakr not done that and affairs of Caliphate had got run per shia demands , there would not have been 12 Imams and Al-Mahdi.

Is not it an obvious contradiction? 9

If Abu Bakr had not snatched the Caliphate from Ali, there will still be 12 Imams to rule the world.  And after the 12th Imam, the qiamat will occur.  All people will die in peace and raise in peace in the hereafter, because Abu Bakr, Umar, Othman, Bani Umaiyah were all following the directive of Rasul and having Ahlulbayt (as) to rule according to Allah swt wills.  People will accept Islam, there will be no wars, and our technology will be so advanced.  We will even have technology to make individual life span beyond few hundred year or live as long as they want to.

It is because of greediness of earlier companions that we, the muslim ummah or humanity is suffering now.

How I wish that Abu Bakr and Umar adhered to their pledge to Rasul (saw) and Ali (as) in Ghadir Khum.  We probably don't have ShiaChat, but we will have much better system of communication and interactions.  Some of us will already live in other planets. Star Trek will be a myth (too backward). All wealth of the universe will be opened to us if all people after the death of the Prophet allowed and adhered sincerely to 12 Imams.  However, it did not happen...  Infact, Allah swt has to save the 12th Imam from the people.  So humanity sinks to the lowest, and people is controlled by all kind of leaders with all kind of interests until today.

 

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5 hours ago, layman said:

If Abu Bakr had not snatched the Caliphate from Ali, there will still be 12 Imams to rule the world.  And after the 12th Imam, the qiamat will occur.  All people will die in peace and raise in peace in the hereafter, because Abu Bakr, Umar, Othman, Bani Umaiyah were all following the directive of Rasul and having Ahlulbayt (as) to rule according to Allah swt wills.  People will accept Islam, there will be no wars, and our technology will be so advanced.  We will even have technology to make individual life span beyond few hundred year or live as long as they want to.

It is because of greediness of earlier companions that we, the muslim ummah or humanity is suffering now.

How I wish that Abu Bakr and Umar adhered to their pledge to Rasul (saw) and Ali (as) in Ghadir Khum.  We probably don't have ShiaChat, but we will have much better system of communication and interactions.  Some of us will already live in other planets. Star Trek will be a myth (too backward). All wealth of the universe will be opened to us if all people after the death of the Prophet allowed and adhered sincerely to 12 Imams.  However, it did not happen...  Infact, Allah swt has to save the 12th Imam from the people.  So humanity sinks to the lowest, and people is controlled by all kind of leaders with all kind of interests until today.

 

How could there be 12 Imams if Al-Mahdi would have been the Caliph? There is no point in ending Imamah on the 12th then

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22 hours ago, Leibniz said:

Given that it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams and the last one would be Al-Mahdi would go into occultation. All Imams were killed one way or the other and Al-Mahdi only escaped to save himself.

Now suppose Ali was given the Caliphate and he was followed by Hassan and so on as Caliphs then there would not have been 12 Imams or atleast Al-Mahdi would not have gone into occultation as he would have been the Caliph.

So , Abu Bakr just paved the way for the Imamah to be 12 by capturing the Caliphate and Abu Bakr did not have option as it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams which could only have been possible if Abu Bakr had snatched the Caliphate from Ali.Had not Abu Bakr not done that and affairs of Caliphate had got run per shia demands , there would not have been 12 Imams and Al-Mahdi.

Is not it an obvious contradiction? 9

Abu bakar did not pave way for anything, it was pronounced before him that there would be 12 Caliphs see in Sahih Bukhari. There are hadith about it in Sahih Bukhari before Prophet (PBUHHP) was on death bed.

Whatever you thought is speculative miscalculation even though you are Leibniz. 

Edited by Juma Khan
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30 minutes ago, Akbar673 said:

I agree with you that everyone needs to be dealt with love and affection.

However, what would he do when his Mother and Wife can not coexist happily? Sure, he can try to play peacemaker and try to smooth out the problems but that doesn't always happen. At the end of the day a decision will have to be made...move out and keep the wife or stay with the parents and eventually lose the wife.

Its an ugly situation but a situation that happens quite regularly when living with parents.

 

22 hours ago, Leibniz said:

Given that it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams and the last one would be Al-Mahdi would go into occultation. All Imams were killed one way or the other and Al-Mahdi only escaped to save himself.

Now suppose Ali was given the Caliphate and he was followed by Hassan and so on as Caliphs then there would not have been 12 Imams or atleast Al-Mahdi would not have gone into occultation as he would have been the Caliph.

So , Abu Bakr just paved the way for the Imamah to be 12 by capturing the Caliphate and Abu Bakr did not have option as it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams which could only have been possible if Abu Bakr had snatched the Caliphate from Ali.Had not Abu Bakr not done that and affairs of Caliphate had got run per shia demands , there would not have been 12 Imams and Al-Mahdi.

Is not it an obvious contradiction? 9

Who said 'if a man does wrong then it is predestined for him'?

What Abu Bakr did was not predestined for him he wronged himself.

Quran warned on numerous occassions.

Haven't you heard the ayat?

They became believer and then became disbeliever, again they became believer and then disbeliever, again they became believer and then when they became disbeliever it was forever...

I cannot find the ayah if anybody could find it kindly. But this is the nearest translation that I remember of.

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1 hour ago, Juma Khan said:

Abu bakar did not pave way for anything, it was pronounced before him that there would be 12 Caliphs see in Sahih Bukhari. There are hadith about it in Sahih Bukhari before Prophet (PBUHHP) was on death bed.

Whatever you thought is speculative miscalculation even though you are Leibniz. 

That's not the point

 

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31 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

 

Who said 'if a man does wrong then it is predestined for him'?

What Abu Bakr did was not predestined for him he wronged himself.

Quran warned on numerous occassions.

Haven't you heard the ayat?

They became believer and then became disbeliever, again they became believer and then disbeliever, again they became believer and then when they became disbeliever it was forever...

I cannot find the ayah if anybody could find it kindly. But this is the nearest translation that I remember of.

There is a difference. Abu Bakr did not have a free will when it was predestined that Imams shall be 12 and the last one shall be Al-Mahdi. Tell me what would have been the scenario had Ali been given the Caliphate by Abu Bakr? How would have Imamah ended at the 12th then?

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On 11/1/2018 at 5:33 AM, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Haven't you heard the ayat?

They became believer and then became disbeliever, again they became believer and then disbeliever, again they became believer and then when they became disbeliever it was forever...

I cannot find the ayah if anybody could find it kindly. But this is the nearest translation that I remember of.

maybe you're referring to this verse.

[Shakir 4:137] Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.

 
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2 minutes ago, justAnothermuslim said:

maybe you're referring to this verse.

[Shakir 4:137] Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.

 

جَزَاكَ اللّهُ خيراً كثيراً 

You really helped a lot my brother

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On 11/1/2018 at 3:06 AM, Leibniz said:

There is a difference. Abu Bakr did not have a free will when it was predestined that Imams shall be 12 and the last one shall be Al-Mahdi. Tell me what would have been the scenario had Ali been given the Caliphate by Abu Bakr? How would have Imamah ended at the 12th then?

What makes you say that Abu Bakr did not have a free will? Dear ofcourse he had a free will like everyone of us it is just that he went astray by doing wrong acts.

Yes you are right that Imams were predestined but that did not mean that Abu Bakr had to come in their way or be unjust with them, He had a free will to live as a noble sahabah and Prophet(saww) would have given him virtues and honour but he chose another way that was because of his free will.

My personal opinion is that if Abu Bakr had given Caliphate to Moula Ali(a.s) then also he would have remained as a culprit and must have done evil acts in other ways because of what he had in his heart and how he acted in early times of Islam or before Islam.

Your question should be as per me that what if Abu Bakr Umar and Othman were good men overall from day 1 of islam then how would have imamah started or ended.

And for this the answer is that there must have been some other culprits because of the fact that human has nature of freewill to go which ever way he wants right or wrong so satan must have misguided somebody else than to play bad roles against the Prophet(saww) or his progeny(asws).

We as shia disregard these 3 caliphs because of their acts towards Prophet(saww) and his aal(asws) it could have been anyone in their place but they chose this themselves misusing their free will.

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On 11/1/2018 at 3:06 AM, Leibniz said:

There is a difference. Abu Bakr did not have a free will when it was predestined that Imams shall be 12 and the last one shall be Al-Mahdi. Tell me what would have been the scenario had Ali been given the Caliphate by Abu Bakr? How would have Imamah ended at the 12th then?

:tongueangry::tongueangry::tongueangry:

How do you know that he had no free will ? 

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3 minutes ago, Juma Khan said:

:tongueangry::tongueangry::tongueangry:

How do you know that he had no free will ? 

He/she means to say that because 12 Imams were predestined so Abu Bakr was meant to be bad by destiny too.

I am trying to tell him/her that whatever wrong or bad we do is by us only and not from Allah.

And if everythin is meant to be destined then @Leibniz my dear even shaitan on the day of Qayamah will stand up and say Oh Allah you had it destined for me to go astray so I went which is logically challenging the 'Adl' of Allah and i s definitely falling into a category of 'Shirk' to be honest.

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26 minutes ago, Juma Khan said:

:tongueangry::tongueangry::tongueangry:

How do you know that he had no free will ? 

Sunnis believe in pre-destination. Everything is Allah's Will. Its a convenient way to avoid blaming the 'sahaba' for their actions.

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45 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

He/she means to say that because 12 Imams were predestined so Abu Bakr was meant to be bad by destiny too.

I am trying to tell him/her that whatever wrong or bad we do is by us only and not from Allah.

And if everythin is meant to be destined then @Leibniz my dear even shaitan on the day of Qayamah will stand up and say Oh Allah you had it destined for me to go astray so I went which is logically challenging the 'Adl' of Allah and i s definitely falling into a category of 'Shirk' to be honest.

In case of devil one can claim free will but in case of Abu Bakr there was no free will. Its like if I give you a blue and a red marble and ask you to pick one while I have already predestined that you would pick the blue one. Its not about whether Abu Bakr was good or bad but its a contradiction between Imamah and Khilafah. Had Ali been the first Caliph there would not have been 12 Imams.

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3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Sunnis believe in pre-destination. Everything is Allah's Will. Its a convenient way to avoid blaming the 'sahaba' for their actions.

Not just that it was a great way for tyrants to justify their rule and force people to tolerate them 

   

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On 10/30/2018 at 5:39 PM, Leibniz said:

Given that it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams and the last one would be Al-Mahdi would go into occultation. All Imams were killed one way or the other and Al-Mahdi only escaped to save himself.

Now suppose Ali was given the Caliphate and he was followed by Hassan and so on as Caliphs then there would not have been 12 Imams or atleast Al-Mahdi would not have gone into occultation as he would have been the Caliph.

So , Abu Bakr just paved the way for the Imamah to be 12 by capturing the Caliphate and Abu Bakr did not have option as it was predestined that there would be 12 Imams which could only have been possible if Abu Bakr had snatched the Caliphate from Ali.Had not Abu Bakr not done that and affairs of Caliphate had got run per shia demands , there would not have been 12 Imams and Al-Mahdi.

Is not it an obvious contradiction? 9

By same logic imami shias should have a toast to yazid at the end of muharram 

Thank you for giving us a chance to mourn Hussain,  if u had not martyred him how would we have azadari majalis etc oh what a patron of shias you are dear yazid 

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5 hours ago, Leibniz said:

In case of devil one can claim free will but in case of Abu Bakr there was no free will. Its like if I give you a blue and a red marble and ask you to pick one while I have already predestined that you would pick the blue one. Its not about whether Abu Bakr was good or bad but its a contradiction between Imamah and Khilafah. Had Ali been the first Caliph there would not have been 12 Imams.

So you are saying Allah was just with devil and unjust with Abu Bakr.

Next time if somebody slaps you then smile and say to that person no problem I was predestined for this slap. If he gives you another slap then also say the same.

Brother please give some logic.

Don't make up anything.

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2 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

By same logic imami shias should have a toast to yazid at the end of muharram 

Thank you for giving us a chance to mourn Hussain,  if u had not martyred him how would we have azadari majalis etc oh what a patron of shias you are dear yazid 

I know this sarcastic and I wanted to give a like but I just cant withstand the word 'dear' with accursed 'yazid' even in sarcasm.

Edited by Asghar Ali Karbalai
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On 11/2/2018 at 5:39 PM, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

I know this sarcastic and I wanted to give a like but I just cant withstand the word 'dear' with accursed 'yazid' even in sarcasm.

Don't worry 

Atleast you got the sarcasm part ...I could have put yazid "radiallahtalaanhu" but I wud be banned lol

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