Jump to content
Laayla

Illegitimate Children

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

It is my understanding that Silat Ar Rahim is an absolute. It is haram to break it. There are a few exceptions, but family members who decide to have illegitimate children is not one of those exceptions, according to what I know. There is a sin on the parents but not the children, since they never asked for their parents to conceive them from a haram relationship. 

Also, the parents may repent someday, so if ties are broken then the parents repent, then this is double sin on one who broke the ties (Qata' Ar Rahim). 

At the same time, yes, relatives should suggest and try to convince them to get married by using means short of cutting ties. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/30/2018 at 5:40 AM, Laayla said:

Brother Assalam Alikum  They are islamically married but they tell the state that they are separated.  They live together and collect benefits to send the check at a different address.  They think they can fool the system to get more money, but that they won't be held accountable in front of Allah?  Nothing gets passed by Allah.   But then when they get caught they give Islam a bad name, Astgfor'Allah.

Yes, and this is fraud. It is haram to gain benefits thru lying. If you can get them without lying, then that is ok. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum.

Do we maintain relationship with the children since they are innocent, and give the cold shoulder to the adults?

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/4/2018 at 3:17 PM, Laayla said:

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum.

Do we maintain relationship with the children since they are innocent, and give the cold shoulder to the adults?

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

This is probably best, but it would be difficult. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Silas

As you can see the responses on this thread brother, some are saying be nice to them, but I don't want them to think what they have done is normal and accepted.

So how does one go about having a relationship with them, since God instructs us to maintain relations with kin?

 

Clarification Post-Edit  **Being nice to the parents

Edited by Laayla

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand how this is even a question. Not that the two are comparable, but, would you alienate the child of a killer? No. Because the child has no say in what their parent does. It makes absolutely no sense to alienate and disrespect children of zina because their parents committed a sin. Why ruin an innocent child's life? A child having family who despises him/her and alienates them in the name of Islam will only distance the child from Islam, and this result is on the shoulders of those who decide to punish an innocent child. 

Instead of contemplating how much of a living hell we should make children's lives, we should discuss what interventions to put in place for children of zina, so they do not fall into further sin if their parents have not repented. 

Edited by 2Timeless

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dragonxx said:

I cannot believe the lengths that people will go to to justify being discriminatory and prejudiced towards an innocent child.  If these children do have issues, it would be from being shunned and badly treated by their self-righteous, "pious" neighbours.  

What a bunch of hateful bunk:

- "The inner (aka evil) qualities and thinking of the mother and father is [are] also transferred to the children. In the same way the special traits of the parents are transferred to children like the color of eyes, hair, shape of the eyebrows etc."
- "Illegitimate children inherit bad manners, breaking of laws and sins from their parents.”
- “Although the rebellious nature of illegitimate children (which have more interest and are more inclined to break the laws and commit sins) makes it difficult for them to avoid sin, and it is also difficult for them to perform their duties,”
 
Oh - and this one is pretty special...
 
"In other words those children who are illegitimately born are like those children who are born to the parents having diseases (T.B, and sexual disorders). These children have more chances of contracting these diseases and if they are not cured as early as possible they are more likely to get these diseases. This is the reason that to protect the interest of the people, those children who are possible to contract the disease of T.B. should not be given whatever food and other things are available."
                    ....... in other words they should not be given food, and water and medical help and ......

 

Edited by Maryaam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Maryaam said:

I cannot believe the lengths that people will go to to justify being discriminatory and prejudiced towards an innocent child.  If these children do have issues, it would be from being shunned and badly treated by their self-righteous, "pious" neighbours.  

 What a bunch of hateful bunk:

- "The inner (aka evil) qualities and thinking of the mother and father is [are] also transferred to the children. In the same way the special traits of the parents are transferred to children like the color of eyes, hair, shape of the eyebrows etc."
 - "Illegitimate children inherit bad manners, breaking of laws and sins from their parents.”
 - “Although the rebellious nature of illegitimate children (which have more interest and are more inclined to break the laws and commit sins) makes it difficult for them to avoid sin, and it is also difficult for them to perform their duties,”
  
Oh - and this one is pretty special...
 
"In other words those children who are illegitimately born are like those children who are born to the parents having diseases (T.B, and sexual disorders). These children have more chances of contracting these diseases and if they are not cured as early as possible they are more likely to get these diseases. This is the reason that to protect the interest of the people, those children who are possible to contract the disease of T.B. should not be given whatever food and other things are available."
                     ....... in other words they should not be given food, and water and medical help and ......

 

See, when we revise something emotionally, we are prone to making errors in our understanding.

"in other words they should not be given food, and water and medical help and " - that's not what he is saying. Of course you care for them just like any other child. He means those with advanced TB can easily get infections, so you can't give them ANY food/water, you have to give them CLEAN food/water to minimize their risk of contracting disease from what they consume due to their immunodeficiency. 

I also like the selective quotes, to give a bit of balance..

 

Quote

 

Although it is wrong as some people think that illegitimate children will never be happy, lucky and acquire salvation. They can also be fortunate and happy like other people, but as we have told earlier their inner self in comparison to others is not favorable for this; that is why they should be stricter and take more precautions.

 

Quote

It doesn't mean that knowledge and training has no effect on them and they will certainly go to Hell.

Quote

It is important to mention that such illegitimate children if they remain staunch on the good path can acquire higher positions and a better life because they have practiced more self control.

 

Lastly, if being born out of wedlock means absolutely nothing, then why the emphasis on for example enemies of Imam Hussein (a.s) being illegitimate? This is NOT to say that all illegitimate children end up enemies of Islam, but more often than not, they clearly sway more to a deviant path.

If you have a problem with this, then you should have a problem with Allah allowing children being born in societies which drink cow urine, or eat human brains, or those born into atheist families/societies. Or do you think a person who grows up with atheism has an equal chance to one born into Islam when it comes to finding the right path?

Islam doesn't preach equality=justice. It preaches fairness=justice. As muslims we should have faith Allah is the Most Just, especially when we aren't understanding specific, universal rulings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

See, when we revise something emotionally, we are prone to making errors in our understanding.

"in other words they should not be given food, and water and medical help and " - that's not what he is saying. Of course you care for them just like any other child. He means those with advanced TB can easily get infections, so you can't give them ANY food/water, you have to give them CLEAN food/water to minimize their risk of contracting disease from what they consume due to their immunodeficiency. 

I also like the selective quotes, to give a bit of balance..

 

 

Lastly, if being born out of wedlock means absolutely nothing, then why the emphasis on for example enemies of Imam Hussein (a.s) being illegitimate? This is NOT to say that all illegitimate children end up enemies of Islam, but more often than not, they clearly sway more to a deviant path.

If you have a problem with this, then you should have a problem with Allah allowing children being born in societies which drink cow urine, or eat human brains, or those born into atheist families/societies. Or do you think a person who grows up with atheism has an equal chance to one born into Islam when it comes to finding the right path?

Islam doesn't preach equality=justice. It preaches fairness=justice. As muslims we should have faith Allah is the Most Just, especially when we aren't understanding specific, universal rulings.

You changed the quote and extrapolated - it says that the child is not to get whatever is available - my quote is correct - what you wrote is not.  Whoever wrote that is ..... well I can't say what I would like to say.... but trying to justify unjust behaviour is simply that.  The other part of the passage is to justify being barbaric.  We are not barbaric,

Because I disagree with an innocent being treated with disdain, hatred, shunning etc.  does not imply I agree with sin.  So do not suggest that it does and push it even further.  

To promote this way of Stone Age thinking is beneath us.

And just because those quotes are wrapped in some bits of fluff does not make them any less vile.

Edited by Maryaam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Maryaam said:
"In other words those children who are illegitimately born are like those children who are born to the parents having diseases (T.B, and sexual disorders). These children have more chances of contracting these diseases and if they are not cured as early as possible they are more likely to get these diseases. This is the reason that to protect the interest of the people, those children who are possible to contract the disease of T.B. should not be given whatever food and other things are available."
                    ....... in other words they should not be given food, and water and medical help and ......

 

1 hour ago, Maryaam said:

You changed the quote and extrapolated - it says that the child is not to get whatever is available

I re-read it carefully. 

..."should not be given whatever food and other things are available." To me it looks like he chose the word "whatever" on purpose, to indicate that precaution should be taken when providing the child with sustenance, and that the child shouldn't just get whatever but instead extra care should be taken. Then he says "and other things are available", not "should not be given whatever food and other available things." If he said the latter, then I'd agree with your point that he is saying the child shouldn't be given food + other stuff. Unfortunately this paragraph of his could be written better, but it's still clear.

Why would he say get rid of such children, but at the same time clearly state that the child can live a happy life and attain a high spiritual status? Or another perspective, why would he say children born to parents with tuberculosis shouldn't get healthcare for the TB? Doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point.

 

I am also vehemently against treating a child with dislike/hatred/etc. no matter the reason. And I don't think that's what the link I posted was conveying. I think it was trying to explain that while Allah says in the Quran a child does not carry the sins of his parents, there are still consequences (not getting inheritance, not leading prayers, etc.) from what the parents did that effect the child negatively, just like how a medical disease can effect a child negatively before even being born. The link was bringing attention that we need to treat illegitimate children with extra care, and that the aforementioned "consequences" are a reminder of the precarious situation the children are in, and how much we should tend to them.

 

Edited by dragonxx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

If you have a problem with this, then you should have a problem with Allah allowing children being born in societies which drink cow urine, or eat human brains, or those born into atheist families/societies. Or do you think a person who grows up with atheism has an equal chance to one born into Islam when it comes to finding the right path?

Islam doesn't preach equality=justice. It preaches fairness=justice. As muslims we should have faith Allah is the Most Just, especially when we aren't understanding specific, universal rulings.

This comparison doesn't make sense.  The issue here is holding an innocent muslim child accountable for his/her parent's sins, and that too for life.  Even if an illegitimate child grows up to be more pious and practicing than born muslims, he is denied leading prayer and inheritance.  This seems fundamentally unjust and unfair.  I have yet to hear a single justification for this that doesn't sound absurd, beyond the typical God knows best.  In that case we shouldn't be discussing these things anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, King said:

This comparison doesn't make sense.  The issue here is holding an innocent muslim child accountable for his/her parent's sins, and that too for life.  Even if an illegitimate child grows up to be more pious and practicing than born muslims, he is denied leading prayer and inheritance.  This seems fundamentally unjust and unfair.  I have yet to hear a single justification for this that doesn't sound absurd, beyond the typical God knows best.  In that case we shouldn't be discussing these things anyway.

The state we are born in in this donya could be a result of our actions in Alam Al-tharr. So that child could have done things there that earned them this position in this world. And here they get a second chance just like everyone else before it's all over at death. 

The reason why rasolullah saws and Ahlul bayt a.s got such high positions in this donya is because they were the first ones to testify to Allah SWTs oneness in Alam Al-tharr and the other prophets and shias came after them in testimony. 

I have had links to literature on this subject in my previous threads for those who are interested in that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

 

I re-read it carefully. 

..."should not be given whatever food and other things are available." To me it looks like he chose the word "whatever" on purpose, to indicate that precaution should be taken when providing the child with sustenance, and that the child shouldn't just get whatever but instead extra care should be taken. Then he says "and other things are available", not "should not be given whatever food and other available things." If he said the latter, then I'd agree with your point that he is saying the child shouldn't be given food + other stuff. Unfortunately this paragraph of his could be written better, but it's still clear.

Why would he say get rid of such children, but at the same time clearly state that the child can live a happy life and attain a high spiritual status? Or another perspective, why would he say children born to parents with tuberculosis shouldn't get healthcare for the TB? Doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point.

 

I am also vehemently against treating a child with dislike/hatred/etc. no matter the reason. And I don't think that's what the link I posted was conveying. I think it was trying to explain that while Allah says in the Quran a child does not carry the sins of his parents, there are still consequences (not getting inheritance, not leading prayers, etc.) from what the parents did that effect the child negatively, just like how a medical disease can effect a child negatively before even being born. The link was bringing attention that we need to treat illegitimate children with extra care, and that the aforementioned "consequences" are a reminder of the precarious situation the children are in, and how much we should tend to them.

 

I appreciate you going to the time and effort to re-read and, through your eyes, interpret what is stated.  However,  you still had to surmise, extrapolate, and try to create a rational effort on the author’s part by adjusting it to fit a more Islamic narrative of what would be more just.

The piece is disjointed and does not flow nor meld ideas so that they become coherent (maybe poorly translated?) but the connect (that is needed) between metaphorically referring to a child as a disease and worse, and then trying to transition this to something that is more Islamic/empathetic/just is clearly not there.  Someone reading that would come away with the wrong message.

Edited by Maryaam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/16/2018 at 7:09 PM, King said:

This comparison doesn't make sense.  The issue here is holding an innocent Muslim child accountable for his/her parent's sins, and that too for life.  Even if an illegitimate child grows up to be more pious and practicing than born Muslims, he is denied leading prayer and inheritance.  This seems fundamentally unjust and unfair.  I have yet to hear a single justification for this that doesn't sound absurd, beyond the typical God knows best.  In that case we shouldn't be discussing these things anyway.

he is denied leading prayer and inheritance.  This seems fundamentally unjust and unfair.

this is first case you think like unjust and unfair? if no let me know of complete details  pl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, dragonxx said:

but more often than not, they clearly sway more to a deviant path

And why is that? Because of threads like this. You treat all humans with respect (at the very least) unless they give you a reason not to. What can babies possibly do to warrant disrespect or "cold shoulders"? You see children of zina deviate from Islam because people disrespect them and ruin their lives in the name of Islam, so naturally, they will not care for a religion that they believe promotes hatred. Instead of discussing how deviant children of zina are, we should discuss how we could help them stick to Islam and obey Allah, and have happy and healthy lives. We should be discussing which precautions we should take to ensure the children don't follow in the path of their parents (if their parents have not yet repented), we should not simply give up on them because of a forgivable sin their parents committed before they ever came into existence. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Laayla said:

So how does one go about having a relationship with them, since God instructs us to maintain relations with kin?

For example, if the mother is your relative, extend an invitation to her and the child for a visit, do not assume that the father is part of the family. Of course, if he shows up anyway you should treat him politely, but not as family until they are married. 

You can also ask them when they plan to marry. I don't think that would be impolite. 

After the parents have married, it's probably best to assume they've repented and treat them as any other family members.

Edited by notme

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, King said:

 This comparison doesn't make sense.  The issue here is holding an innocent muslim child accountable for his/her parent's sins, and that too for life.  Even if an illegitimate child grows up to be more pious and practicing than born muslims, he is denied leading prayer and inheritance.  This seems fundamentally unjust and unfair.  I have yet to hear a single justification for this that doesn't sound absurd, beyond the typical God knows best.  In that case we shouldn't be discussing these things anyway.

I see your point.

But I still stand by my point that the child is not accountable for the parent's sin, rather the child is effected by the sin of the parents. That doesn't mean the child bears the sin of their parents in the sense that the child is accountable on the last day for the act that the parents did - that's all on the parents. But the child can still be affected by something entirely the parent's fault, that's life.

A pregnant mother consuming alcohol/a father who transmits syphilis to his pregnant wife - such things can result in physical effects on the child, it can result in mental effects on the child, but when it comes to a spiritual effect, that's impossible? On what basis do we make this claim? 

19 hours ago, Maryaam said:

I appreciate you going to the time and effort to re-read and, through your eyes, interpret what is stated.  However,  you still had to surmise, extrapolate, and try to create a rational effort on the author’s part by adjusting it to fit a more Islamic narrative of what would be more just.

 The piece is disjointed and does not flow nor meld ideas so that they become coherent (maybe poorly translated?) but the connect (that is needed) between metaphorically referring to a child as a disease and worse, and then trying to transition this to something that is more Islamic/empathetic/just is clearly not there.  Someone reading that would come away with the wrong message.

And this isn't extrapolating? 

22 hours ago, Maryaam said:

....... in other words they should not be given food, and water and medical help and ......

How in the world did you come to this conclusion when the author never said that, and clearly stated in several other paragraphs that the child needs EXTRA care as opposed to 'let the child die'. I'm extrapolating?

Not only that, but my second explanation was purely about the grammatical structure of the sentence. What is there to extrapolate there, it's basic english... You're repeatedly re-stating your own conclusions of how ridiculous this is without addressing any of the arguments. Or am I also interpreting and making my own rules of english grammar as well? 

Neither have you addressed - why the emphasis by Ahlulbayt (a.s) on illegitimate birth in regards to many historical personalities in Islamic History? Or are the Ahlulbayt (a.s) also unjust in bringing up this emphasis?

4 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

And why is that? Because of threads like this. You treat all humans with respect (at the very least) unless they give you a reason not to. What can babies possibly do to warrant disrespect or "cold shoulders"? You see children of zina deviate from Islam because people disrespect them and ruin their lives in the name of Islam, so naturally, they will not care for a religion that they believe promotes hatred. Instead of discussing how deviant children of zina are, we should discuss how we could help them stick to Islam and obey Allah, and have happy and healthy lives. We should be discussing which precautions we should take to ensure the children don't follow in the path of their parents (if their parents have not yet repented), we should not simply give up on them because of a forgivable sin their parents committed before they ever came into existence. 

Nobody is saying they are inherently deviant. Nobody said they are born evil. Nobody suggested to treat them with disrespect except your post...

What the author said throughout, and which I've paraphrased is simple; babies born illegitimately are more prone to sin, the same for example as a child born into an atheist family. 

This isn't disrespecting or belittling them, the way I see it, it's an extra reminder and warning to these children when they grow up to take care and avoid sin. As for the sin of the conception itself, that's 100% on the parents come Judgement day, NOT the child.

Edited by dragonxx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bismehe Ta3ala 

Assalam Alikum

2:04

On illegitimate children and the correlation of crimes committed.

The disgusting day on Feb 14 called Valentine's Day.  

Sister @dragonxx I have seen first hand how children out of wedlock are effected by the zina relationships of their parents.  

Personally, I would only do the bare minimum of salam to the relative and that's it.  Especially those who continue doing zina purposely and not a care in the world.

M3 Salamah,FE Amin Allah 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If someone is seriously asking how to maintain relations with children born from family members out of wedlock, this is a personal, akhlaq problem of an individual and not knowing how to be polite, and not related to Islam. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/24/2018 at 5:18 PM, Laayla said:

 Personally, I would only do the bare minimum of salam to the relative and that's it.  Especially those who continue doing zina purposely and not a care in the world.

I would understand why you would prefer not to associate with openly transgressing characters, but wouldn't the obligation of Islamic ties still apply with your brother/sister/cousin? I do remember coming across the story of the Prophet (pbuhf) visiting Abu Lahab (l.a) regularly (once a week I believe) despite the latter's poor treatment of the Prophet (pbuhf).

 

On 12/24/2018 at 6:07 PM, Islandsandmirrors said:

If someone is seriously asking how to maintain relations with children born from family members out of wedlock, this is a personal, akhlaq problem of an individual and not knowing how to be polite, and not related to Islam.   

 The question isn't how to be polite or have good akhlaq, it's about whether or not there is an Islamic obligation to continue or cut off interactions with another. It's a very legitimate question.

Along the same lines, I was wondering, If the relationship between the parents is not Islamic and a child is conceived, does this mean that extended family Islamic ties still apply with the child of those parents? I don't know the correct answer but as far as my logic takes me presently,  the answer would be no. Has nothing to do with akhlaaq or treating the person poorly, but it is of significance to know whether or not you are islamically obligated to maintain ties with the child.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/24/2018 at 7:13 PM, dragonxx said:

I would understand why you would prefer not to associate with openly transgressing characters, but wouldn't the obligation of Islamic ties still apply with your brother/sister/cousin? I do remember coming across the story of the Prophet (pbuhf) visiting Abu Lahab (l.a) regularly (once a week I believe) despite the latter's poor treatment of the Prophet (pbuhf).

Salam we must just keep our ties with them by just saying hello & welcome but if they do great sins & don't repent from it we must diassciate from hanging with them

On 12/24/2018 at 7:13 PM, dragonxx said:

The question isn't how to be polite or have good akhlaq, it's about whether or not there is an Islamic obligation to continue or cut off interactions with another. It's a very legitimate question.

Along the same lines, I was wondering, If the relationship between the parents is not Islamic and a child is conceived, does this mean that extended family Islamic ties still apply with the child of those parents? I don't know the correct answer but as far as my logic takes me presently,  the answer would be no. Has nothing to do with akhlaaq or treating the person poorly, but it is of significance to know whether or not you are islamically obligated to maintain ties with the child.

the child has no sin because of condition of his/her birth but he/she is more prone to falling in sins than a child that born in Islamic way we can condemn his/her parents action but we must be polite with their child until he/she doesn't follow their footsteps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/25/2018 at 12:04 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam we must just keep our ties with them by just saying hello & welcome but if they do great sins & don't repent from it we must diassciate from hanging with them

Hmm I'm not convinced. We won't ever know for sure if they repented or not. Also, if doing great sins means we should dissociate from visiting them, then why did the Prophet (pbuhf) visit is Uncle despite his uncle doing the worst sins?

On 12/25/2018 at 12:04 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

the child has no sin because of condition of his/her birth but he/she is more prone to falling in sins than a child that born in Islamic way we can condemn his/her parents action but we must be polite with their child until he/she doesn't follow their footsteps.

Being polite and kind is a given.

My question is, would you be obligated to maintain ties with the child, despite the child being born outside of Islamic marriage?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×