Gender is not a social construct

[Sumerian]

Amongst some of the people who promote pink and soft ways to replace traditional family customs, they have come up with a strange assertion.

They claim that gender is a social construct and that males and females are actually the same, but culture has made all these weird "roles" for each gender.

So they would normalise boys wearing dresses and playing with barbie dolls, and girls wearing boys clothes and playing with boys toys.

Of course this is all an abomination and a form of transgression against morality. We know that the genders are different, we know they have differences in their brain, they have innate interests, and so on.

Islam has given specific roles to males and females, that's it. Any attempt to oppose this is due to the false propaganda installed in the minds of people of pink freak leanings - and they are the ones who wish to destroy chivalry, masculinity, honor and noble protective pride aka gheera.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Sumerian

[3wliya_maryam]

That's so sad honestly 

whats also weird is that some people encourage others to become gay or lesbian like they're freakin promoting it and now it has officially turned into a norm ;( even in kids shows now I cannot even let my future children watch normal kid shows anymoreeee

in some public schools they have a bathroom for students who are trans.

However, I more than 100% agree with gender equality, The holy Quran also talks about males and females being treated equally. But now a lot of these people take it to the next level where there is nothing wrong with switching genders where males can act like females. And there you have these western people criticising Islam for treating women badly when in reality it's just pure culture.

like I'm telling y'all if there was a way to leave this planet in the future or some new technology arises to go to mars I'll be the first person.

[2Timeless]

1 hour ago, Sumerian said:

They claim that gender is a social construct and that males and females are actually the same, but culture has made all these weird "roles" for each gender.

I agree with most of what you said. But I do think that gender roles are socially constructed to a certain extent, there's no doubt about that. Whether gender as a whole is a social construct, I'm not sure about though. There are definitely key and innate differences between men and women, so although our gender roles are partially socially constructed, I don't think gender as a whole is a mere social construct.

[Islandsandmirrors]

Gender roles are a construct. Gender itself is not a construct. 

[hasanhh]

This is Iike a replay of the 70s.  Same debate.

[Klanky]

8 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

This is Iike a replay of the 70s.  Same debate.

What was answer?

[ShiaMan14]

2 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Islam has given specific roles to males and females, that's it. Any attempt to oppose this is due to the false propaganda installed in the minds of people of pink freak leanings - and they are the ones who wish to destroy chivalry, masculinity, honor and noble protective pride aka gheera.

 

49 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Gender roles are a construct. Gender itself is not a construct. 

@Islandsandmirrors nailed it perfectly.

Whenever something is prescribed, it is a construct. You can say that you agree with the Islamic constrict of gender but can't say construct doesn't exist.

Are you saying tough guys shouldn't wear pink? That would be a construct!!!

Edited October 21, 2018 by ShiaMan14

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Are you saying tough guys shouldn't wear pink?

Lolz, is this a prelude to the second exhibition of ShiaMan14's pink shirts, by any chance?? 

[Bakir]

History proves it is a social construct @Sumerian, like it's not something even debatable to be honest. There are indeed certain biological grounds one should take into consideration, but gender per se, is socially constructed (not to be confused with biological sex).

What you seem to be criticizing is the consequences of believing gender is a social construct and thus, it has no real value, just a fictional one that we, as a society, adscribe to it. And that is not the real goal behind saying that gender is a social construct, but actually to be able to ask ourselves if the way we have socially configured gender makes any sense.

For instance, "boys can't wear pink because it is a girly color" is a stupid social construct that we don't really need.

[rkazmi33]

Another social construct is that women are good at house work. I am not, and a lot of women are not, and I don't even enjoy cleaning. There was a time when I enjoyed cooking, but I never enjoyed cleaning and because of that I am labeled as masculine. Is that really Islamic when it's not even wajib on me to clean the house?I am better at some subjects than other women, and I can work and hire some cleaning services to clean for me, but that's not acceptable to society because cleaning is MY job, and I should be good at cleaning. I am sorry to burst your bubble but I can assure you ALL women don't come into this world with knowledge of all the cleaning hacks. I have no such knowledge and I have a hard time even learning those hacks. 

Edited October 21, 2018 by rkazmi33

[Sirius_Bright]

1 hour ago, starlight said:

Lolz, is this a prelude to the second exhibition of ShiaMan14's pink shirts, by any chance?? 

He's justifying his set of pink shirts. 

2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Are you saying tough guys shouldn't wear pink? 

 

[Sirius_Bright]

Establishing equality between genders is delusion and it is akin to playing with nature. As a Muslim, we can strive for justice according to Islamic standards. 

[Sumerian]

It is not a construct because women are naturally submissive and males are naturally dominant. There are many studies that prove that females seek dominant partners and men sek submissive partners. The roles which Islam has give compliments this biological reality which exists between the genders.

Gender is biology. That is it.

[Ralvi]

@sumerian, what roles are you taking about here? Not every woman is a wife nor is every man a husband. What about children? Single folk? What are these roles you talk about? Cooking and cleaning is not wajib on a woman. Best believe I’ll make my future husband do it too!

[ali_fatheroforphans]

I think biology does play a major role in creating these differences. 

I think there's been research done that out of a selected number of boys and girls, it was found that a larger number of boys were playing with boys' toys rather than barbie dolls etc.

Obviously society does influence it to some extent but a lot of it is due to biology. I don't think society had to pressure men to take care of women, do the physical work, defend the family etc.

Men and women naturally started realizing that they have specific roles based on their biology.

[hasanhh]

5 hours ago, Klanky said:

What was answer?

lt faded away as people became pro-occupied with stagflation, high inflation, President Carter, the boat people, and efforts to pass the Equal Rights Amendment.

[ShiaMan14]

5 hours ago, starlight said:

Lolz, is this a prelude to the second exhibition of ShiaMan14's pink shirts, by any chance?? 

 

4 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

He's justifying his set of pink shirts. 

Sister, brother

I will break out the pink on navi (9th Rabi-ul-Awal) inshallah

    

Edited October 21, 2018 by ShiaMan14

[Sumerian]

1 hour ago, Ralvi said:

@sumerian, what roles are you taking about here? Not every woman is a wife nor is every man a husband. What about children? Single folk? What are these roles you talk about? Cooking and cleaning is not wajib on a woman. Best believe I’ll make my future husband do it too!

Many roles. The two most important is seeking permission to leave the house and to not deny one's husband their right to gratification.

[Ruqaya101]

10 hours ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

That's so sad honestly 

whats also weird is that some people encourage others to become gay or lesbian like they're freakin promoting it and now it has officially turned into a norm ;( even in kids shows now I cannot even let my future children watch normal kid shows anymoreeee

in some public schools they have a bathroom for students who are trans.

However, I more than 100% agree with gender equality, The holy Quran also talks about males and females being treated equally. But now a lot of these people take it to the next level where there is nothing wrong with switching genders where males can act like females. And there you have these western people criticising Islam for treating women badly when in reality it's just pure culture.

like I'm telling y'all if there was a way to leave this planet in the future or some new technology arises to go to mars I'll be the first person.

Habibti, how will you go to mars, you can't even afford a mars bar HAHA. 

[Sumerian]

8 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Gender roles are a construct. Gender itself is not a construct. 

Gender roles are created because they compliment the differences between the genders.

5 hours ago, Bakir said:

History proves it is a social construct @Sumerian, like it's not something even debatable to be honest. There are indeed certain biological grounds one should take into consideration, but gender per se, is socially constructed (not to be confused with biological sex).

What you seem to be criticizing is the consequences of believing gender is a social construct and thus, it has no real value, just a fictional one that we, as a society, adscribe to it. And that is not the real goal behind saying that gender is a social construct, but actually to be able to ask ourselves if the way we have socially configured gender makes any sense.

For instance, "boys can't wear pink because it is a girly color" is a stupid social construct that we don't really need.

@Islandsandmirrors sister this is what I mean, as you can tell some people deny gender as a biological reality. Brother @Bakir calls it a social construct, which is a strange assertion imo that is not backed by facts. My position is supported by studies which show males and females are naturally different as far as their brain and personality traits.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Are you saying tough guys shouldn't wear pink? That would be a construct!!!

What about women being the breadwinners in a family? Or men getting pregnant?

[Jahangiram]

7 hours ago, Bakir said:

History proves it is a social construct @Sumerian, like it's not something even debatable to be honest. There are indeed certain biological grounds one should take into consideration, but gender per se, is socially constructed (not to be confused with biological sex).

What you seem to be criticizing is the consequences of believing gender is a social construct and thus, it has no real value, just a fictional one that we, as a society, adscribe to it. And that is not the real goal behind saying that gender is a social construct, but actually to be able to ask ourselves if the way we have socially configured gender makes any sense.

For instance, "boys can't wear pink because it is a girly color" is a stupid social construct that we don't really need.

The problem with the modern discourse is that it doesnt only deconstruct gender roles with the stick of social constuctivism, but even gender-specific preferences and temperaments. The latter two are perceived to be the product of socialisation, impressed onto our minds by society's conditioning. As research has shown again and again, such preferences and temperaments are expressed even more strongly in egalitarian societies in contrast to the hierarchal East. 

And if you think that's a shocker, wait until you hear read the screeds of third wave feminists like Judith Butler - who not only reduce gendered identities to mere social constructs, but also conflate gender with biological sex. 

[ShiaMan14]

26 minutes ago, starlight said:

What about women being the breadwinners in a family?

So in some African cultures, women are the breadwinner -  social construct. 

27 minutes ago, starlight said:

 Or men getting pregnant?

How is that going to happen?

[Sumerian]

Islam's views never contradict the fitra of mankind. Islam never orders anything unnatural, and it only regulates the natural. 

The fact is that innate personality traits, brain differences and needs and wants are determined by gender. There is a reason why males excel in STEM. It's not just because females have been put down which is the argument that those of pink leanings put forth, it is because males are naturally good at it because of innate visual spacing. Just as women are naturally good at nurturing kids.

These are facts fam

Edited October 22, 2018 by Sumerian

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

So in some African cultures, women are the breadwinner -  social construct. 

Yes, but what's your opinion about it? Do you think it follows principles stated by nature and Allah or do you think there is no roles assigned for this by nature?

What you you think about 'theybies'?

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

How is that going to happen?

Transgender men are already having babies. Techniques are being developed to implant uterus in biological men so they can get pregnant if they like. 

 

[Bakir]

1 hour ago, Sumerian said:

Gender roles are created because they compliment the differences between the genders.

@Islandsandmirrors sister this is what I mean, as you can tell some people deny gender as a biological reality. Brother @Bakir calls it a social construct, which is a strange assertion imo that is not backed by facts. My position is supported by studies which show males and females are naturally different as far as their brain and personality traits.

Sex is a biological reality, gender is not. Female and male sexes are obviously different, in multiple ways. Female and male genders, however, have been different in shape and content in all societies and eras.

What made you a man in the Ancient Greek polis is different in Native American tribes or the Japanese Feudal Era. What made you a woman in old African tribes, Scythian nomad communities or the Brittish Victorian Era was also very different. The sexes are common in all eras and places, the genders were quite different, though. The affirmation that gender is socially constructed is not an opinion, @Sumerian, it is a historical fact that cannot be negated.

Anthropology is a science dedicated to the study and evolution of human societies and their configurations. You may learn a lot about gender, among many other topics, if you dedicate some hours to the study of this beautiful field. This may also lead you to notice the social changes that came with Islam, as pre-Islamic Arabia had many things in common with Ancient Greek.

Islam has defined roles for both genders. This means that not following this gender roles may be going against Islam, but not against what is normal and natural (regardless if that may mean harm to the soul or body). Actually, these genders have varied a lot since the start of Islam in the muslim arabic society. Women's emancipation and lives in the public sphere was not common in Early Muslim Arabia (and nearly anywhere in the world by that time), and our historical records prove that. On the other hand, inclinations such as homosexuality (active role) were seen as sinful, but not less manly or associated with effeminacy as it is seen today (this continued even during the Ottoman Empire).

So, if there is anything that backs up the claim that gender is a social construct, these are, definitely, facts.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Bakir said:

This means that not following this gender roles may be going against Islam, but not against what is normal and natural

You think the two can be different? There could be instances where islam goes against nature?

[Bakir]

11 minutes ago, starlight said:

You think the two can be different? There could be instances where islam goes against nature?

Of course. There is nothing that indicates Islam is exclusively some sort of natural religion. Islam is an absolutely politized and socially configured religion in many ways.

Moreover, this claim I made can also be proved by the absence of Islam (which constitutes basically the major part of human history). Shall we call everything before Islam unnatural, all the societies and eras that have lived in this Earth? Shall we call, instead, the politized, expansive, hierarchical, and commerce-oriented Islamic Empire more natural than all the societies before it?

If any, Sufis have tried to approach Nature in a religious/devotional way. But Islam per se, doesn't require that.

As for instances where Islam may go against nature, you have almost all types of sins, which tend to be natural more than anything else. The link between nature and divinity, and going against Nature and going against Divinity, is rather an archaic concept.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Bakir

[Jahangiram]

27 minutes ago, Bakir said:

Sex is a biological reality, gender is not. Female and male sexes are obviously different, in multiple ways. Female and male genders, however, have been different in shape and content in all societies and eras.

What made you a man in the Ancient Greek polis is different in Native American tribes or the Japanese Feudal Era. What made you a woman in old African tribes, Scythian nomad communities or the Brittish Victorian Era was also very different. The sexes are common in all eras and places, the genders were quite different, though. The affirmation that gender is socially constructed is not an opinion, @Sumerian, it is a historical fact that cannot be negated.

Anthropology is a science dedicated to the study and evolution of human societies and their configurations. You may learn a lot about gender, among many other topics, if you dedicate some hours to the study of this beautiful field. This may also lead you to notice the social changes that came with Islam, as pre-Islamic Arabia had many things in common with Ancient Greek.

Islam has defined roles for both genders. This means that not following this gender roles may be going against Islam, but not against what is normal and natural (regardless if that may mean harm to the soul or body). Actually, these genders have varied a lot since the start of Islam in the muslim arabic society. Women's emancipation and lives in the public sphere was not common in Early Muslim Arabia (and nearly anywhere in the world by that time), and our historical records prove that. On the other hand, inclinations such as homosexuality (active role) were seen as sinful, but not less manly or associated with effeminacy as it is seen today (this continued even during the Ottoman Empire).

So, if there is anything that backs up the claim that gender is a social construct, these are, definitely, facts.

Please refer to my previous post; the discourse on gender emanating from social constructivism doesnt only berate gender roles but even gender-specific preferences and temperaments - which research has consistently shown is *not* conditioned but innate to both sexes. 

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, Bakir said:

There is nothing that indicates Islam is exclusively some sort of natural religion

The Quran says otherwise. 

فَأَقِمْ وَجْهَكَ لِلدّ‌ِينِ حَنِيفاً فِطْرَتَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا لاَ تَبْدِيلَ لِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ الدّ‌ِينُ الْقَيّـِمُ وَلَكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ

So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know. Quran 30:30 

Most of the Quran commentaries say that the in the above verse Fitrah means primordial nature and religion (monotheism) is something that is natural and whatever is found in religion has a root in nature. 

1 hour ago, Bakir said:

Shall we call everything before Islam unnatural, all the societies and eras that have lived in this Earth?

Islam = Tawheed (monotheism) the message which all of Allah's messengers brought forth since the beginning of humanity. 

[Bakir]

33 minutes ago, Jahangiram said:

Please refer to my previous post; the discourse on gender emanating from social constructivism doesnt only berate gender roles but even gender-specific preferences and temperaments - which research has consistently shown is *not* conditioned but innate to both sexes. 

I haven't refused that, but the social construction of gender goes beyond that predisposition and set of preferences that are biologically present in us. Of course, there are biological grounds that push each gender to excel in different activities. This fact, however, doesn't make gender social construction false, or any less important than the biological predisposition. Gender roles and meanings are adopted according to each society, and rather than worrying about biological inclinations, societies have configured genders to meet their own interest (economical, religious, political, etc.).

And apart from that, in my reply to Sumerian, I have already stated the facts that demonstrate that gender is a social construct, without any doubt. Facts are facts. However, it may help you to think of the following example: our body is supposed to naturally work in certain way. However, some are born with illnesses, while others are born with great health. Others may grow up in a healthy comfortable place, while others may face disease and lack of resources. These cases will make the bodies to work differently, with different lifestyles to get used to the favourable or unbearable conditions. Societies are similar. They may be supposed to be some way "naturally" speaking, but it's never like that.

As a side note, social construction of genders doesnt equate acceptance of any gender construction from a religious point of view. Leave to sociology what belongs to sociology, and theology what belongs to theology. I just wanted to make this point clear in order to make sure we are on the same vibe.

[Bakir]

22 minutes ago, starlight said:

The Quran says otherwise. 

فَأَقِمْ وَجْهَكَ لِلدّ‌ِينِ حَنِيفاً فِطْرَتَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا لاَ تَبْدِيلَ لِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ الدّ‌ِينُ الْقَيّـِمُ وَلَكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ

So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know. Quran 30:30 

Most of the Quran commentaries say that the in the above verse Fitrah means primordial nature and religion (monotheism) is something that is natural and whatever is found in religion has a root in nature. 

Islam = Tawheed (monotheism) the message which all of Allah's messengers brought forth since the beginning of humanity. 

I'm having this debate with historical and sociological facts. It is important to separate theological sources from the previously mentioned ones. Otherwise, I cannot have any serious debate.

But if you refer that we have a biological predisposition to Islamic behaviours, or any behaviour at all, the above reply I gave to Jahangiram answers this point.

Edit: I would also add another important point, and that is that if Islamic roles are supposed to be natural and biological, there would be no need to teach them. But, as any other gender construction in any society, it has to be taught, in a constant way. Even before being born, we are already getting our gender specified, and constantly constructed, day after day. Our name, our colors, our clothes, our toys, our activities, our relations with other boys and girls, the behaviour that is expected from us, etc. We've been taught about our gender since we were born, so it's normal to believe it is natural and normal (especially if we were educated under Islamic guidelines and gender expectations). And this changes, by re-defining roles by action and habits. Kohl in men is an example. It is now associated to women in most places to beautify them, while it is an ancient Egyptian tradition to wear it, as well as Arabic and Islamic.

Going to the topic of fitrah, this doesn't seem to point at how societies are configured, but how humans are inclined towars Allah (it is a spiritual concept, not a sociological one). If we understand that fitrah, that is present in all humanity, as something that defines our social position, we have another problem: acceptance of slavery in Islam.

The natural moral reasoning would be that we are all equal, and it's not right for a person to dominate another while accepting his own right to be free. Going through this path, I would say that such interpretation to reply my former post would point a clear contradiction in the Book, unless the fitrah mentioned is spiritual, and doesn't necessarily define social positions.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Bakir

[Sumerian]

@Bakir all the examples you mentioned are different representations of male personal traits. For example, bravery and dominance are male traits, and they are represented differently in different cultures.

Are you denying males and females have differences in their brain? Have different innate traits? Are capable of different tasks better than the other, like males at STEM and females at child nurturing?

[ShiaMan14]

8 hours ago, starlight said:

Yes, but what's your opinion about it? Do you think it follows principles stated by nature and Allah or do you think there is no roles assigned for this by nature?

What you you think about 'theybies'?

Transgender men are already having babies. Techniques are being developed to implant uterus in biological men so they can get pregnant if they like. 

 

I am good with the Islamic construct - no issues. I was simply telling OP what islam has prescribed is also a social construct.

[Ralvi]

13 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Many roles. The two most important is seeking permission to leave the house and to not deny one's husband their right to gratification.

You seem to be really fixated on that aren’t you? Are there no other important matters other than a husbands constant gratification brother? What about her(oh is that a bad question?) if you marry a woman the least thing you can do is trust her to perform her wajib duties) if your going to go in with that mentality already then the problem lies with you. And like I said before you talk about roles and I could see from a mile away that you would bring a wife’s duty. Please expand on roles of those I mentioned. Types of toys don’t dictate gender, nor do color of clothes, nor does school, nor does hobbies. Nothing that goes against the Quran is a role. Those are constructs. I wouldn’t have a problem with what toys my kids play with, as long as they learn Islam what other ‘role’ is there?