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Ibn al-Hussain

Popular - Unreliable - Accounts Related to Ashura

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There is a concept of "Chashm-e-Tasawwur", I guess brother @Ibn al-Hussain can translate it properly. Any speaker while mentioning us story specifically "Masa'ib" of Imam e Mazloom and discuss Karbala, uses this term. Obviously, he at that time discard his self from whatever is written in the history whether reliable or unreliable and he invite people to "imagine" (if this is proper for chashm-e-tasawwur) what would be the situation, for instance, when Imam Hussain (asws) leaving his camp or when Qasim (as) or Ali Akbar (as) were asking for permission to fight. Here, we can understand that the speaker might include his own personal views or add his personal feelings to the history.

Now what I am about to ask from @Ibn al-Hussain is that what are his views about the report that the decapitated heads of Martyrs (specifically Imam Hussain (asws)) were reciting the Holy Quran on the spears (Report mentions that they're reciting the first few verses of Sura-e-Kahaf). Is this reliable or not? and how you think it is reliable or unreliable. Let us know the TRUTH

Many reports are there about some respected scholars & teachers of Howza-ilmiyah, that they have seen "Masoom or Masoomeen, any one of them" in their dreams and they were asked to mention a specific event (e.g., when Abbas as was falling down from his horse). Is this story telling? Or they do have seen them in their dreams? How can you or anyone else test its reliability? 

Is there any amal exist with which one can see what happened in Karbala? Have you heard anything from Ayatullah Wahid Khurasani or from any other teacher of yours about that?  

Why you have not uploaded the Popular-Reliable- Accounts Related to Ashura on your website and selected to upload unreliable accounts? 
 

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7 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Some of them are desperate for answers and are not stupid, they have very legitimate questions and concerns. ... You should also keep an eye out on the latest trend of ex-Muslim videos (both ex-Shia and ex-Sunni) that have become popular on the internet where many of them will bring these sort of stories and exaggerations out as one of their criticisms against Muslims.

 

And for such people a more historicist account may be more relevant. But what they cannot do is let other peoples' interpretations affect their own faith. Because whichever aspect of human endeavour they turn to, they'll find similar issues. They are part of the human condition. Leaving Islam does not take those issues away.

I've created a thread about the restoration of a painting by da Vinci, there's a debate about what it should look like.

Of course we are taking their reasons at face value, I am familiar with probing techniques (not waterboarding) that are designed to get at what people really think because sometimes the explicit reasons people give about any aspect of their behaviour hide something else.

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Here is the report:
 

Quote

1. The severed head of Imam Husayn (a.s.) recited Quran and supplications while it was held aloft on the point of a lance.

Miftahun Najah fi Manaqibe Ale Aba: P.145; Al- Khasaisul Kubra 2/127; Al-Kawakibu Durriya: P.57; Isafur Raghebeen: P.218; Nurul Absar: P.125; Ehqaq- ul-Haq 11/452-453.

https://www.al-islam.org/lohoof-sighs-sorrow-sayyid-ibn-tawus/signs-and-incidents-became-appeared-after-martyrdom-imam-husayn

Lets see how anyone can check its reliability..

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18 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

@Ibn al-Hussain In the document linked to the OP there are a number of historical claims that you say are disputed. What's your view on the dialogue that we are commonly told took place between members of the Holy household (a.s.)?

Salam we must consider that during Ummayid & Abbasid era many Shia text books burned & destroyed by them ,most of what remain ,transferd chest by chest or by hiding in sunni sources that maybe caused flaws but it's a miracle that we have access to these sources now.

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14 hours ago, haideriam said:

The Truth being built on lies is what taints the truth and draws it further away from the people. 

People are not stupid, everyone has the idea that ANY figures whether related to wounds or related to number of enemies killed, are not more than mere estimations and are not the truth.

We do not even know the exact number of martyrs of Karbala. We don't even know the exact dates of births of our Imams. How many things we don't know exactly, that's why we have two Ayyam e Fatimiyah etc. 

So we are familiar with the concept of "reliable & unreliable" reports.

Here, on this thread, the matter of unreliablity has been mentioned as an allegation i.e., the scholars are liars or that they have fabricated the reports and they are knowingly spreading lies.

Whether the person "Muhammad Tehrani" who is mentioned as research scholar, has put this allegation in his research? Or it is ibn al hussain or Ali Imran of website Iqra are putting these accusations? 

Now since here people has opened the door of critics for common people, everone should prepare to face critics on what is declared as "reliable" for you. Now the hands of Abbas (as) are in question, now everything is in question. What a shame for us! 

وَإِنَّ الشَّيَاطِينَ لَيُوحُونَ إِلَى أَوْلِيَآئِهِمْ لِيُجَادِلُوكُمْ 

Shayateen possess the power to inspire their friends. Whether our Imams possess the power to inspire & guide their loyal servants, what actually happened in Karbala!!

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@Ibn al-Hassan, I suggest you to forward your research to www.al-islam.org and ask them to either remove unreliable accounts or rewrite the history of Karbala. 

 

Quote

Ali al‑Akbar fought once on the right flank, then again on the left flank and killed one hundred and twenty horsemen. He came back to his father so thirsty, that the Imam cried and said, “Soon you will see your grandfather. He will give you water which you will never forget.” He put his tongue on his son’s tongue to show him how dry his own mouth was, and then gave him his ring to put in his mouth and whet his mouth with it.

Quote

Habib Ibn Mu¨ahir became angry and said, “The prayer of the People of the House of the Prophet will not be accepted, but yours will?” And he attacked. Habib swung, but missed. He hit the chief’s horse instead and the chief fell. His people came and rescued him. Habib kept fighting and killed sixty‑two soldiers before they wounded him with a spear. 

https://www.al-islam.org/karbala-and-ashura-ali-husayn-jalali/at-karbala#first-attack

This time the writer is different. Why website like www.al-islam.org is involved in spread so called "lies"? 

 

Quote

Zayd Ibn Ruqad was hiding behind a palm tree, and suddenly came out, swinging his sword and cutting off ′Abbās’s right hand.

′Abbās said:

“If you cut my right hand

I am going to continue protecting my religion

And a true Imam,

The descendant of the Prophet!”

He did not care about his hand because he wanted to get the water back for the children. Another soldier, Hakim Ibn Tufayl, was also hiding, and he came out and cut ′Abbās’s left hand. Then, they surrounded him, and the arrows reached the water skin and the water began to leak out. When ′Abbās noticed this, his heart sank and he could not bear to return back to the camp without any water.

One arrow pierced his chest, and a soldier hit his head with a tent pole. ′Abbās fell down and said, “To you, from me, Peace! O, Imam!”

The Imam immediately rushed to him and said, “Now my back is broken and I have no choice!”

They don't even care of hadith of Imam which mentions the cutting of hands of Abbas (as), and say that it is not clear.

So it is unclear them, when exactly enemy cut hands of Abbas (as). How ridiculous this alone statement is !!!! 

Do they think enemy has cut the hands after running horses on his body and after cutting his head?  Perhaps it satisfies them that the enemy forgot to cut the legs and satisfied with cutting hands only. 

They say there is no dual happened, from Sheikh Tusi (to Present day historians, every historian mentions that after the noon prayers companions fought individually or in group of two or three. 
 

Quote

A’bes as he strode in stood out alone as none among Yazid’s men dared confront him. Omar Sa’ad, Yazid’s commander was furious at this and ordered a group of his men to surround and attack him with another group throwing stones at him.

A’bes seeing that there was no one prepared to combat him singly with the sword but that he was being got at in this cowardly way with stones flung at him, removed his coat of armor and walked into the thick of the enemy with nothing else but his sword and fought bravely on.

Of this scene Rabee bin Tamim narrates:
“By God, I saw that in whatever direction A’bes went there were hundreds of men scattering in a mad stampede.
The enemy saw that he could not be overcome and so they surrounded him from every side.
As he had received great many wounds from the stones flung at him and with sword cuts, he fell.
A little later I saw a group with one holding his severed head and each claiming to have killed him.”

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/ashura-tenth-muharram-muhammad-rida-hakimi

Yet another writer...... 

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Quote

I am not justifying their reasoning and conclusions, I am empathizing with them. My issue was trying to belittle their efforts to a simple "they want to eat haram and halal" which shows how grossly misunderstood and misjudged their efforts and quest for seeking the truth are and making those judgements and belittling their efforts simply cuts off any further hope of their return. I have dealt with a number of Shi'i youth over the past 2-3 years (primarily in my own city) for hours, who are or were literally on the verge of apostasy or apparently live like Muslims, and some who have actually apostatized. Some of them are desperate for answers and are not stupid, they have very legitimate questions and concerns. Most of them will not publicize their apostasy either (not until they feel safe and independent enough). You should also keep an eye out on the latest trend of ex-Muslim videos (both ex-Shia and ex-Sunni) that have become popular on the internet where many of them will bring these sort of stories and exaggerations out as one of their criticisms against Muslims. While I have my issues with their reasoning and try to point it out to them whenever I converse with them, this does not mean that are serious internal issues we have that we need to fix up.

This, of course, does not mean that there are no apostates who simply want to "enjoy life" and "eat halal and haram".

I do not see any valid reason to stay in this thread. However, I will point out that this is a very unsuccessful diversion, and not a good one to support or sell the unsubstantiated points in the link posted in the opening post. Looks like the marketer was very liberal with ideas which can't be proven. 90 points are basically hearsay.

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On 10/13/2018 at 8:41 PM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Applying the same methodology, and strict standards, that are been used by researchers. 

All what is in this link, someones projection/opinion/perception . Which by any standards will not be allowed in the court of public opinion. There is no proof that the arbitrary 90 points. As they are listed and worded/constructed are Popular accounts. 

For example.

Quote

7. The number of enemy soldiers killed: 1,950 by Imam Ḥusayn (a), 750 by Abū al-Qāsim and 800 by Aḥmad – two sons of Imam Ḥasan (a), and 30,000 to 300,000 enemies were killed in total. According to the earliest reliable sources, the number of soldiers killed on the side of ‘Umar b. Sa’d were 88.

How many lectures this exact quote and exact numbers are been reported by the Speaker? 

and the number 88, this conclusion can't be reached after reading the accounts/(not numbers) in the four books i mentioned earlier. You have to be Deaf/dump/bind to conclude this. Actually this is opposite of exaggeration. Its undermining the Valor. 

Quote

posting al-Islam excerpts

These are  Al-Islam excerpts but not the way you have tried to imply. These are accounts from the books you directed the members to look at. Which undermine you conjecture and faulty /baseless assessment -I have lost confidence in such people and their judgement. 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235059582-popular-unreliable-accounts-related-to-ashura/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-3174295

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235059582-popular-unreliable-accounts-related-to-ashura/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-3174297

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235059582-popular-unreliable-accounts-related-to-ashura/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-3174298

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235059582-popular-unreliable-accounts-related-to-ashura/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-3174301

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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On 10/15/2018 at 12:01 AM, ShiaMan14 said:

 

Like the guy in the video said, no one knows history because no one was there.

Not in this case. And this is not some event that people just woke up to, and heard about and decided to investigate and reconstruct  it. There were eye witnesses. It has been going on since the time of the event, and passed thru every generation with out a gap. 

Imam' Media - They held Aza and informed people in these mourning gathering. 

Quote

Historians say that after the incident of Karbala, the first group to wear black were the women of the Prophet’s family who did so for a complete year. They mourned to the extent that Imam Sajjad would provide them with food.

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa2415#

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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6 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Not in this case. And this is not some event that people just woke up to, and heard about and decided to investigate and reconstruct  it. There were eye witnesses. It has been going on since the time of the event, and passed thru every generation with out a gap. 

Salaam,

I was referring to what the guy in the video said. He listed the different narrations about Hz Ali Asghar (as) but didnt reject any of them as "lies, deception, fabrications" and said none of the writers were there to no one can be sure which is the 100% record. From my perspective, they could all be accurate just written from different vantage points or sources.

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19 hours ago, haideriam said:

Brothers just because someone is trying to educate us and trying to move us from a world of make belief to what is relatively authentic, we do not need to be harsh or throw ridicule. 

Learn to argue with facts and reason and not because you heard something a hundred times without checking any of the books. 

The Truth being built on lies is what taints the truth and draws it further away from the people. 

Why do you think there is was a constant retelling of the truth for generations pre Islam. 

And finally why do you think so many Shias will reject the Master(atfs) of our time.

 

Did you read the first two post on page 1. I did not get an answer to that. To not have an understanding of hsitory/Masib/poetry and lumping all in. utilizing outlier reports or minor differences and projecting it as this Popular belief in Shia's or in their Lectures is not prudent. Its misrepresenting the Facts. 

Have you read this stuff , 

http://www.iqraonline.net/popular-unreliable-accounts-related-to-ashura/

When someone is projecting this on the Shia's we will counter it. It has nothing to do with poster who can't logically and coherently explain his own understanding is not called ridicule or been harsh. Its called getting straight answers on a sensitive subject. If a person can't stand up to scrutiny and will play victim is not  a good sign. They should  not be in this business of rattling the cage. 

Not sure what you mean by "world of make belief" guess the marketing has worked.

This is not world of make belief

 

https://www.al-islam.org/event-taff-earliest-historical-account-tragedy-karbala-abu-mikhnaf

https://www.al-islam.org/lohoof-sighs-sorrow-sayyid-ibn-tawus

https://www.al-islam.org/nafasul-mahmum-relating-heart-rending-tragedy-karbala-shaykh-abbas-qummi

https://www.al-islam.org/maqtal-al-husayn-abd-al-razzaq-al-muqarram

Atheist will say the same for the book and the stories as fairy tails. Tell me you hear or read the above mentioned stuff exactly the way they try to market it. No on is denying stuff happens but this article initself is an exaggeration/projection of some ones perception and a gross mis representation of facts on the ground. This the real world of make belief. 

Atheist are using the same words to subdue the Muslims, fairy tales and superstitions . We do pay attention to frivolous charges we defend and ask them to explain their understanding before they are allowed to judge us. If they are agnostic and can't explain - are two minded - not sure - themselves about their own identity or faith - they will retaliate with coy tactics and distractions. 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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I don't have an issue with the topic in itself. I dont mind the quantative analysis on Karbala either. After all, if Ayatollah Mutahhiri talked about it in 1969, why can't we talk about it today.

My issues with OP are:

1) Claiming all differerences to be "lies, exaggerations, deception". Clearly OP has no idea of how history works. More importantly, OP is clueless about the arduous journey of our history which was systemically destroyed by the Ummayaads, Abbasaids and then Mongols. Perhaps this is an exagerration too that the Mongols destroyed so many of our books in Baghdad that the Tigris ran black (with ink) for 7 days. Any shia historian worth his salt knows this, recognizes this and is very careful in treating differences as missing pieces of history rather than outrightly claiming them to be "lies, exaggerations, deception".

2) Claiming these 'exaggerations' lead people to leave the religion of Islam. Is it really conceivable that a shia leaves Islam because he doesn't know whether to believe Imam Hussain's head was severed from the front or the back? If anything, I would say OP is trying to divert attention from Syed-us-Shohada being beheaded by confusing the youth about immaterial aspects of Karbala. By that I mean, that the important issue is the beheading of Imam Hussain (as), not the how he was beheaded or what tool was used or where Shimr was, etc. Is our love for Imam Hussain (as) going to change based on exact location of his beheading???

3) Claiming he has a hard time following the examples from Karbala because of the exaggerations. What exaggeration stops him from learning a valuable lesson from Karbala? If there was a narration that Imam Hussain (as) killed 1,000 enemy soldiers - does OP try to kill 100 enemies soliders? But if there is a narration that Imam Hussain (as) did not kill anyone in Karbala, does OP simply buckle and let whoever opposes him just kill him???

If shia youth are leaving the fold of Islam citing Karbala exaggerations as a factor, then I hold OP and people like him directly responsible for it for their lack the knowledge of our history and an even bigger lack of understanding of Karbala and Imam Hussain's martrydom.

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@Ibn al-Hussain

Salam and well done brother. 

Just don't let the others divert you from your topic/research.

Only answer the relevant portion that needs to be answered.

With the passage of time and ridding oneself of the emotion will reason begin to start looking appealing. 

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@Salsabeel      @S.M.H.A.    @ShiaMan14

for my three brothers above

You love, in spite of your ignorance of an academic debate is not being doubted. 

Getting flustered and aggressive is normally a sign of lacking in substance/not wanting to understand and or learn. 

Please ask intelligent questions and discuss with material which aids the argument/research be it against or for the topic. 

And please do not add extra fluff ....be brief and to the point.  

And try tackling one point at a time as it will be easier for yourselves.

And try not to GANG UP. 

Please do not reply to this post and try and justify it either in written words. 

LET YOUR ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN YOUR WORDS. 

Thanks

Edited by haideriam

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There was a sunni person belongs to Pakistan name "Imran Liaqat Hussain" who converted & became Shia. He joined the howza ilmiyah qum and became an Ayatullah (received the degree of mujtahid). After some time he left shia islam and again turned into sunni.

The point of mentioning him here at the moment is that some people do not get benifitted by the company & teachings of scholars. 

We do not get angry nor we become worried from these self proclaimed Ayatullah's or students of final year in howza ilmiyah.

Edited by Salsabeel

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33 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

^All I can say is that you seem to be suffering from a serious case of straw man syndrome. I shall pray for your quick recovery.

Wasalam

You may have had a case if I hadn't started my post with "I dont have an issue with the topic" because I really don't. You talked about "lies, deception, exaggerations"; you talked about youth going astray because of Karbala exaggerations, you talked about having a hard time learning and following the lessons of Karbala.

These are arguments you presented not me, so how can you, in turn, accuse me of "straw man" syndrome? Seems to me that you are plagued with "I dont know how to defend my baseless accusations" syndrome. I recommend reciting istagfirullah... as a cure.

38 minutes ago, haideriam said:

@Ibn al-Hussain

Salam and well done brother. 

Just don't let the others divert you from your topic/research.

Only answer the relevant portion that needs to be answered.

With the passage of time and ridding oneself of the emotion will reason begin to start looking appealing. 

Here you go brother

516y4HuPMsL._SX425_.jpg

23 minutes ago, haideriam said:

@Salsabeel      @S.M.H.A.    @ShiaMan14

for my three brothers above

You love, in spite of your ignorance of an academic debate is not being doubted. 

Getting flustered and aggressive is normally a sign of lacking in substance/not wanting to understand and or learn. 

Please ask intelligent questions and discuss with material which aids the argument/research be it against or for the topic. 

And please do not add extra fluff ....be brief and to the point.  

And try tackling one point at a time as it will be easier for yourselves.

And try not to GANG UP. 

Please do not reply to this post and try and justify it either in written words. 

LET YOUR ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN YOUR WORDS. 

Thanks

Thank you for reminding me that this is an academic debate. I will be the first to claim ignorance on a all issues.

I watched the video that OP posted and the person in it conducted a very nice discussion. He presented a number of narrations about Hz Ali Asghar (as) and showed how they were different. He didn't reach the conclusion that the differences were because of "lies, deception exaggerations" but left it with needing more investigations.

Being an academic debate, I am sure that OP with your trusted help has covered all the books that have ever been written about Karbala before reaching the conclusion that the different narrations have been caused by "lies, deception exaggerations". Elsewhere, he also said this was a natural phenomenon.

Can you confirm this to be true?

Also, I am 100% sure that OP and you have accounted for the thousands and thousands of our books that were destroyed during the reigns of the Ummayaads, Abbasaids and Mongols who destroyed library after library of our books in Baghdad. Were those books also part of the "lies, deception exaggerations" series?

Looking forward to your words of wisdom.

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you are talking of this fraudia.....nusarie, well both brothers.....

last post off topic from myself and you think he was Ayatullah level. 

Keep the answer to yourself and research deeper into it. 

 

 

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49 minutes ago, haideriam said:

you are talking of this fraudia.....nusarie, well both brothers.....

last post off topic from myself and you think he was Ayatullah level. 

Keep the answer to yourself and research deeper into it. 

errr, I was referring to the post by OP:

The other reference I made was to Ayatollah Mutahhari. Look him up some time.

This is what happens when you join an 'academic' debate mid-stream and simply support a person with no knowledge of what is being discussed.

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50 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:hahaha: @ShiaMan14, you hit a sixer on full toss!!

They want to conduct an academic debate when they have no idea of what it entails and when they can't prove their point, they bring in cheerleaders to deviate from the actual issue

"Look these narrations are different. Therefore I have proven they are lies, exaggerations, deception".

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32 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Regarding the other statement about lies, deception and exaggeration I would have to go back and see in what context this was used (was it against al kashani, al kashifi or some of the sources that they used?) 

Either way, my humble suggestion would be to not rush to conclusions about the sincerity of the brother who has done this translation. It is a more valuable contribution than what most of us are doing on this particular forum. 

Wallahu a'lam 

Salaam

That is my point to OP. He or anyone can't reach the conclusion that the different narrations are due to lies and fabrications. I even cited a couple of examples of how history and narrative get mixed together over the course of time. Couple that the annihilation of our libraries and the picture is very different from the one OP is trying to paint.

In an academic discussion, you reach a conclusion at the end, not the beginning and definitely not with half the picture.

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1 hour ago, Carlzone said:

Does anyone know what our maraje3 say about the discussed issue? 

They are most knowledgeable so they must know, right? 

Salaam.

Most marajae know how much of our history has been lost, burnt, destroyed, etc. So they choose silence over a subject rather than make a mistake. 

Absolutely no one can be certain if Imam Hussain (as) head was severed from the throat or back of neck and in the grand scheme it is irrelevant so they choose to stay quite. Similarly there are accounts that Shimr beheaded Imam Hussain (as) or possibly Sinan bin Anas. Chances are it was both - Shimr started but couldn't finish so Sinan took over. We hate them both equally.

Our marajae focus on the core message rather than peripheral issues as they serve no purpose.

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(For the record the original post op made about the points that are recited and are fabricated- I haven’t heard those but I have heard a lot of fabricated things) I’m just wondering why there aren’t more people bringing this up? Also why are there hawza educated speakers who repeat the things that are fabricated? And aren't there lots of hawza students who could help put an end to the false reports being passed around? 

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The more one can make people cry with fabrications the more money one can demand for a majlis/gathering. 

These people have no respect for the mimber/pulpit and do not know its worth. 

A lot of these unauthenticated narrations/narratives are just repeated by the academically depraved orators/zakirs. 

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6 minutes ago, haideriam said:

The more one can make people cry with fabrications the more money one can demand for a majlis/gathering. 

Some of the stuff you hear in Punjab (Pakistan) sounds so fabricated it’s scary 

Edited by eloquence

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

Regarding the other statement about lies, deception and exaggeration I would have to go back and see in what context this was used (was it against al kashani, al kashifi or some of the sources that they used?)  

Here you go. More of the same.

32 minutes ago, haideriam said:

The more one can make people cry with fabrications the more money one can demand for a majlis/gathering. 

These people have no respect for the mimber/pulpit and do not know its worth. 

A lot of these unauthenticated narrations/narratives are just repeated by the academically depraved orators/zakirs. 

But then this person is an academic so he "knows" what he is talking about. 

 

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45 minutes ago, eloquence said:

(For the record the original post op made about the points that are recited and are fabricated- I haven’t heard those but I have heard a lot of fabricated things) I’m just wondering why there aren’t more people bringing this up? Also why are there hawza educated speakers who repeat the things that are fabricated? And aren't there lots of hawza students who could help put an end to the false reports being passed around? 

Because most people are aware of the history and the differences in narrations and the reasons for those narrations.

Also , the students and their teachers focus on message of Karbala rather than 13 strikes to severe the neck or 14 strikes.

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