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I don’t agree with many of feminism’s principles, but I believe that women should be treated humanly, and I believe we must educate them to get out of domestic violence. Feminism does a great job at allowing women to stand up to the men that once hurt them. 

Islam is perfect, but many people abuse their authority and manipulate the Quran to get a women to stay trapped in abusive marriages. “I have authority over you, I’m your husband and so I have the right to beat you—it says so in the Quran.”

“No I won’t divorce you because you didn’t say so in the contract, so you have no right to leave.” Etc.

Torture is also disgusting and inhuman. A person I knew was falsely accused of rape, and was beaten until they realized they had made a mistake. I’ve heard of so many stories where people are tortured so they can confess. That is disgusting. That is wrong. This is not Islam. This is oppression. 

 

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3 hours ago, notme said:

Can anyone provide a different news article on the same event with different bias? With translation if necessary. 

The thing about media bias is it makes it harder to know the truth, but not necessarily impossible. You just have to check multiple sources. If this is the only article, there's nothing to balance it against, so we can't know what is true. 

I checked some Persian websites and what I realized was that:

-she was not forced to marry. She decided to marry because her family were poor and she had a difficult life. She convinced her parents to allow her to get married.

-at the age 17, after the murder, which happened about 7 years ago, she went to police and reported herself and said that she killed her husband because he abused and beated her.

- later she retracted her words and said that someone else killed her husband

-according to her lawyer, there was much evidence that she was not a murderer.

-her brother in-law was arrested but since there was no evidence against him, he was released

-where she was in jail, she was allowed to marry a man who was a prisoner, too.

Anyway....God rest her soul. She had a difficult sad life. I personally think they should not have executed her.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

This is disgusting. These people in power are not practicing Islam—they are oppressors. 

This is why we need feminism. To prevent underage women from getting married and for getting away from abusive people. Not shame and blame them. 

Salam alaykum sister. We don't need feminism, we have Islam and this is what we need. Feminism is something limited to this dunya, Islam is the solution for this and the other world.

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16 minutes ago, Guest One said:

Salam alaykum sister. We don't need feminism, we have Islam and this is what we need. Feminism is something limited to this dunya, Islam is the solution for this and the other world.

IF Islam were practiced correctly all over the world, we wouldn't need feminism or any other named or unnamed opposition to oppression, because there would be none. 

I don't agree with all the tenets of the current "feminist movent" but as long as women are being oppressed, we can join them in their opposition to it. Yes, it's a movement rooted in this dunya, but it strives to free people in this dunya, same as we should. 

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10:20 this is what is happening

@hasanhh

@starlight

@IbnSina

@Hameedeh

 

34ـ الإمامُ الصّادِقُ عَلَيهِ السَّلامُ: إنَّ الإيمانَ عَشرُ دَرَجاتٍ بِمَنزِلَةِ السُلَّمِ، يُصعَدُ مِنهُ مِرقاةً بَعدَ مِرقاةٍ، فَلا يَقُولَنَّ صاحِبُ الإثنَينِ لِصاحِبِ الواحِدِ: لَستَ علَى شَيءٍ، حَتّى يَنتهيَ إلَى العاشِرِ فَلا تُسقِط مَن هُو دُونَكَ فَيُسقِطَكَ مَن هُوَ فَوقَكَ، وإذا رأيتَ مَن هُوَ أسفَلُ مِنكَ بِدَرجةٍ فارفَعهُ إلَيكَ برِفقٍ، ولا تَحمِلَنَّ عَلَيهِ ما لا يُطيقُ فَتَكسِرَهُ، فإنّ مَن كَسَرَ مُؤمِناً فَعَلَيهِ جَبرُهُ .
34– Imam al-Sadiq (AS) said, ‘Certainly faith is ten levels, like the rungs of a ladder, where each rung is climbed one after the other. The one on the second rung cannot say to the one on the first: ‘You are nothing’ until he completes the ten. Therefore do not knock the one below you down, lest the one above you knocks you down. And when you see one below you in rank, lift him up to your level with gentleness. And do not burden him with that which he cannot bear lest you break him, for verily one who breaks a believer must put him back together again.’ [al-Kafi, v. 2, p. 45, no. 2]

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A little off topic, but since so many people are saying feminism is not needed, I think they need to actually learn what true feminism is. Real feminism isn't walking in the street completely naked. It's not asking to have a higher pay than your male co worker. If you look at the original feminist movement, this was far from their message, and alot of things modern day feminists do would outrage the founders of real feminism. We need to learn to distinguish between true feminism, and random people using feminism as an excuse for radical ideology. It applies to "Muslim" terrorists. They're not really Muslims, but the name gets them the attention they want. Same thing.

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15 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

Feminism simply means that women should be given equal rights. Yes, that may contradict with certain rulings, but feminism doesnt harm anyone.

Equal rights as in equal share in inheritance and being an equal witness and so on? Anything that is against the Islamic principles will harm the society sooner or later. 

Edited by starlight
Damn autocorrect

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12 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

but many people abuse their authority and manipulate the Quran to get a women to stay trapped in abusive marriages.

ln my lifetime, decades ago you could not get divorced and if you did the woman got everything plus support plus anything else the court could pile up on the man. That was the Churchs' moralizing influence. That is why when feminism got started, one of the slogans was "women's liberation is man's liberation". This was a main argument for the Equal Rights Amendment. The Amerikan actor Richard van Dyke made a movie titled Divorce American Style and the part l remember best is when he asks the divorce judge how he could be expected "to live on $25 a week?" 

There use to be the reality "Divorce: ltalian Style"; which meant the only way get rid of a spouse was to-get-rid-of-the-spouse. There were even movies made about people killing their spouses because they couldn't divorce.

In both cases and other countries, the man-enslavement was because of a Church sacrament.

So, it is not anything particular to lsIam. Spousal abuse exists everywhere. lt is only Quran that reveals if you can't live together to separate. The Western Churches had the cwap "what god has joined together let no man put asunder."

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16 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

Bro, it's not international news. I haven't seen it on any of the major and most respected news outlets. That doesn't even look that sophisticated anyway. I haven't seen BBC or CNN or any other major news outlets speak on this. People need to stop with the fear mongering and victinising themselves. This case is very ordinary (sadly). Did you not hear about the story that was released about the Iraqi girl from America who got burnt by her parents?

You are wrong regarding it not being international news.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37617333

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/12/world/zeinab-sekaanvand-iran-death-row/index.html

For you information, the first place I read about this story was from Scandinavian news. It has indeed made international news headlines.

Do you not see the difference between a report of a family in Iraq killing their daughter vs a report of the Islamic Republic sentencing someone supposedly unfair to death? They are clearly targeting the IR with their subjective reporting. Have you ever heard western news outlets say anything positive about the Islamic republic ever? Even as they have fought against terrorism all over the region, not a single positive news have been reported in the western media about it.

I am not talking about news trying to make Iranian people seem bad, this has nothing to do with that. I am talking about the mainstream western media actively trying to demonize the government of Iran by selective, subjective and angled news reports. Do you not agree that they are trying to target the government? I do not know how much news you read per day but I see it at least once a week if not more. There are more frequent negative reports about the Iranian government in the mainstream news than it is about the slaughtering in Yemen.

Am I victimizing myself now for stating the clear fact that western media are targeting and trying to demonize the government of Iran in hopes of building negative public opinion of it and in the long run topple them? You have either misunderstood me or misunderstood the concept of self victimization.

 

16 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

Feminism simply means that women should be given equal rights. Yes, that may contradict with certain rulings, but feminism doesnt harm anyone.

What rulings? Are you referring to the rulings of the holy Quran, the laws of Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى?

That the testimony of a women is not equal to that of a mans? That the inheritance of a women is not equal that of a mans?

I trust in the judgement of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى regarding who is supposed to be given what rights before I trust in the judgement of humans.

 

This whole thread is one big face palm in my opinion, the discussion is not even about whether or not the article is true, instead its taken for granted that its true because things like this happens and now we are moving on with the discussion without even bothering to find out whether or not these "news reports" are actually true. 

Maybe I should make up my own news and blend in a little truth into them? Say something that could have been true and fits the general narrative of the ignorant masses and see people run with it?

 

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@IbnSina I don't see how Iran is being targeted. I see it as you vicrimising iran. And I don't see Iran as a victim. You refuse to see that that it is not only Iran being "targeted". Whenever anything bad happens in the east it's broadcast everywhere. It's not just Iran. That's plain fact. Whatever happens in the east is always twisted and turned to make Muslims look bad. No one in this thread said anything against Iran. Don't worry, no one has tarnished Iran's perfect image in Shia Muslims' eyes.  Whether or not this ONE article is true, these things happen day in day out in the east, especially in developing countries. You cannot deny that alot of women are forced to marry at a very young age, end up being raped by some family member, and are put on house arrest by their husbands. I haven't read the BBC report, maybe that one is more reliable and has reported the story as it "truly" is. But it is best not to think of people as saints when really, humans can be the most evil and disgusting creatures. So, for arguments sake, let's say these articles are all fake and incorrect, it's still true that this same "exaggerated" story is the life of thousands of women in the east, including Iran. 

Edited by 2Timeless

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3 hours ago, starlight said:

Equal rights as in equal share in inheritance and being an equal witness and so on? Anything that is against the Islamic principles will harm the society sooner or later. 

I  said that in some instances, a feminist perspective will save an individual's life. Educating women and giving them access to sanitation in poorer countries where they are expected to sit and home and be slaves to their husbands could be considered feminist. I don't think this goes against any Islamic principles, unless Islam has suddenly allowed the enslavement and abuse of women by their husbands. 

I understand that in certain aspects, we cannot have a completely feminist perspective, as I said, if it goes against Islamic rulings. I'm no alim but I'm sure that in certain cases of witnesses and inheritance there are exceptions because Islam is just. 

Edited by 2Timeless

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1 minute ago, 2Timeless said:

@IbnSina I don't see how Iran is being targeted. I see it as you vicrimising iran. And I don't see Iran as a victim. You refuse to see that that it is not only Iran being "targeted". Whenever anything bad happens in the east it's broadcast everywhere. It's not just Iran. That's plain fact. Whatever happens in the east is always twisted and turned to make Muslims look bad. No one in this thread said anything against Iran. Don't worry, no one has tarnished Iran's perfect image in Shia Muslims' eyes.

If you deny that the mainstream western media is actively targeting the government of Iran then we are on entire different pages. Seeing as you did not know that the very news outlets you took up as an example of outlets that did not report about this actually DID report about this, my assumption is that you do not read that much news to begin with and so your opinion regarding what news that are frequently reported about is not accurate.

Do you realize the difference between a bias report against the people of nation/from a certain culture/followers of a religion VS a bias report against the government of a nation? Please answer this question because I think this is where you loose what I am saying.

 

7 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

Whether or not this ONE article is true, these things happen day in day out in the east, especially in developing countries.

Ok, so let me get this straight: You do not actually care whether this report is true or not because things like this happens anyways?

 

9 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

You cannot deny that alot of women are forced to marry at a very young age, end up being raped by some family member, and are put on house arrest by their husbands. I haven't read the BBC report, maybe that one is more reliable and has reported the story as it "truly" is. But it is best not to think of people as saints when really, humans can be the most evil and disgusting creatures. So, for arguments sake, let's say these articles are all fake and incorrect, it's still true that this same "exaggerated" story is the life of thousands of women in the east, including Iran. 

Yes, BBC, the British state funded news outlet definitely does not have their own agenda to push regarding the government of Iran by manipulating public opinion thru subjective news reporting...

As I said in an earlier reply to you; I KNOW that these things happen in the middle east and in the rest of the world as well, in fact EVERYONE knows it. Thats why I am asking why it has made international news this time.

If women being abused is not a new thing, meaning its not really news. Then the reason this have made international news is not because of the women being abused but because of the Iranian government sentencing her to death, thus the news is not about the girl but about the Iranian government. Do you understand what I am trying to convey now?

 

 

Also, you did not respond to your statement about "Feminism simply means that women should be given equal rights. Yes, that may contradict with certain rulings, but feminism doesnt harm anyone." What rulings were you referring to that are still good to contradict?

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5 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

If women being abused is not a new thing, meaning its not really news. Then the reason this have made international news is not because of the women being abused but because of the Iranian government sentencing her to death, thus the news is not about the girl but about the Iranian government. Do you understand what I am trying to convey now?

 

I'm not denying that the Iranian government is being targeted. BUT the Iranian government is not only being targeted. To demonstrate my point, I'm sure you've heard of Malala, she earned Pakistan a bad name because a bunch of disgusting men. Many, many stories of FGM emerging from India and Africa have also earned certain countries a bad name. If you refuse to see that Iran is not their only punching bag, there's nothing more I can say. Iran is not the only victim. In fact Iran is more capable of defending itself against these "targeted" news reports because it's not a war torn country like all the rest. And, if the Iranian government really did sentence her to death after torturing her into an admission (let's say for arguments sake that it did, even if this storyline may not be 100% true) then the Iranian government deserves the criticism. As Muslims, we stand against injustice. Falsely confessing as a result of torture is a huge injustice. We must acknowledge that even if there are many aspects of the Iranian government that you may like. We shouldn't believe everything we read, but we also shouldn't disbelieve it and victimize a whole government.  Long story short, this is not the only story that has made international news. I've given you 3 stories so far (one of which I've also heard is unreliable as has been blown out of proportion to make Islam look bad). 

13 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Also, you did not respond to your statement about "Feminism simply means that women should be given equal rights. Yes, that may contradict with certain rulings, but feminism doesnt harm anyone." What rulings were you referring to that are still good to contradict?

I did not say that it is good to contradict rulings. An example: a man forces his wife to quit her job, and he rapes her every night and sometimes beats her. He's not technically doing anything wrong. Because he can dictate where she goes, she can't leave the house without his permission. There's also no such thing as rape in Islam (if no/minimal marks are left) so he's off the hook for that one too. He beats her but again, is clever enough not to leave a mark. Verdict: not guilty. He doesn't seem to violate any rulings here. A feminist perspective would help the woman realise that she is worthy of equal respect and a right to security (extremely basic wants and needs), so she runs away to her parents home. In doing so, this would violate certain rulings in Islam (leaving the house without your husband's permission, disobeying him). However, it is essential for the woman to leave because even if there is not much physical damage (other than the rape, which he is sure has left no proper marks). It is essential to leave so she can salvage the last of her mental well being. Do you understand what I'm saying? In certain countries, this is the bitter reality of the majority of women. You're all here discussing inheritance and witnesses but there are bigger issues. Not every one is as privelaged. They don't even have access to safety, inheritance and witnesses is definitely the last thing on their mind.

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@IbnSina stories like this come out on every government and every group. When Saudi Arabia does something like beheading or crucifixion it also makes the news, when ISIS does something it also makes the news. Nothing special here, anything that appears to be non-Western will make the Western news whether it is from a state ally or a state enemy.

 

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31 minutes ago, King said:

Any criticism of the Iranian government that comes from human rights organizations is 100% Western propaganda and should be dismissed.  Iranian government never uses propaganda, in fact, they cannot even spell it.  

Loool I sense the strong sarcasm :hahaha:

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1 hour ago, King said:

Any criticism of the Iranian government that comes from human rights organizations is 100% Western propaganda and should be dismissed.  Iranian government never uses propaganda, in fact, they cannot even spell it.  

All Governments use propaganda at some point, but the Iranian government is much, much less sophisticated at using it vs Western Governments who have had hundreds of years to perfect this. 

The American Justice system is so extremely messed up, they have no rights at all the criticize any other country in this regard. To give an example, how many days has it been since the last Death Row inmate was exonerated by DNA evidence ? Or someone who has spent decades in prison is exonerated by DNA evidence ? 

In other words, the Govt was about to execute someone, then an outside group, like the Innocence Project, did a little research and found out that the person's DNA excluded them from even being involved in the crime ? The ones who are wrongly convicted and almost executed have a few things in common

1) They are almost always black or brown

2) They are always poor

This happens many times per year. There are also hundreds of thousands of people in prison because they don't have enough money to pay a civil fine. So while that is going on, I think the US Govt has no right to criticize any other government when it comes to human rights

 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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On 10/5/2018 at 2:59 AM, King said:

Any criticism of the Iranian government that comes from human rights organizations is 100% Western propaganda and should be dismissed.  Iranian government never uses propaganda, in fact, they cannot even spell it.  

What's your beef?

Do you see Iran mingling in elections?

Do you see Iran imposing sanctions?

Do you see Iran voicing against how they run their government?

WARNING:  Contains Profanity

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2 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

Iran is not the only victim. In fact Iran is more capable of defending itself against these "targeted" news reports because it's not a war torn country like all the rest.

Your sentence is pretty much proving my point.

The reason the Iranian government is in fact the main target for the western mainstream media is because, just like you yourself stated, it is capable of defending itself and because it is not a war torn country like all the rest. The aim is make it incapable of defending itself and make it a war torn country like the rest. Furthermore I never said that the Iranian government is the only target of the western mainstream media. I am discussing this case right here, which most certainly is intended to target the government first and foremost as I have rationally proven. Women getting abused is not something that hits international news, the news that we are seeing here is that the Islamic Republic of Iran has supposedly forced a confession thru torture of prisoner and then executed her. In other words, its the same old song: IR = evil and bad. Thats the "news".

 

4 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

I did not say that it is good to contradict rulings. An example: a man forces his wife to quit her job, and he rapes her every night and sometimes beats her. He's not technically doing anything wrong. Because he can dictate where she goes, she can't leave the house without his permission. There's also no such thing as rape in Islam (if no/minimal marks are left) so he's off the hook for that one too. He beats her but again, is clever enough not to leave a mark. Verdict: not guilty. He doesn't seem to violate any rulings here. A feminist perspective would help the woman realise that she is worthy of equal respect and a right to security (extremely basic wants and needs), so she runs away to her parents home. In doing so, this would violate certain rulings in Islam (leaving the house without your husband's permission, disobeying him). However, it is essential for the woman to leave because even if there is not much physical damage (other than the rape, which he is sure has left no proper marks). It is essential to leave so she can salvage the last of her mental well being. Do you understand what I'm saying? In certain countries, this is the bitter reality of the majority of women. You're all here discussing inheritance and witnesses but there are bigger issues. Not every one is as privelaged. They don't even have access to safety, inheritance and witnesses is definitely the last thing on their mind.

You basically said feminism means equal rights between genders and that it contradicts certain rulings. Followed by statement that feminism does not hurt people.

If you would implement your sentences then you would go against the Holy Quran regarding the rights of men and women and that would most certainty hurt society and the people in it. 

That is what your statement said. If you did not mean that then its better to either refrain from making generalized statements regarding rights of male/females or be more specific if you do not wish to be misunderstood.

As far as your example goes regarding a man that wishes to abuse his rights. It is not specific to Islam, any man or women can abuse any legal system and rights that he or she might have. It is not feminism that these situations needs, it is ISLAM and I do not mean merely a set of laws but taqwa and dhikr which are more essential and fundamental to the religion of Islam than the rules.

For example, in the country I reside in the concept of feminism has been implement to a degree far beyond any other country on planet earth currently. And yet when #metoo was going on, it was widespread in all layers of society within the country even though they would pride themselves with saying they are all feminists. Why? It is because they not only lack taqwa, they even lack belief in God to begin with. You dont think any person in a position to abuse their power/rights will do so sooner or later if nobody can stop them? It is just a matter of time. They do not fear their consequences if they can get away with it but taqwa teaches us to fear the consequences even those who nobody will find out about and the consequences we will receive beyond life. Taqwa is what our societies need before anything ells.

 

 

There are two questions you have not answered so far, please do so:

1. "Do you realize the difference between a bias report against the people of nation/from a certain culture/followers of a religion VS a bias report against the government of a nation? Please answer this question because I think this is where you loose what I am saying."

 

2. "Ok, so let me get this straight: You do not actually care whether this report is true or not because things like this happens anyways?"

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4 hours ago, Sumerian said:

@IbnSina stories like this come out on every government and every group. When Saudi Arabia does something like beheading or crucifixion it also makes the news, when ISIS does something it also makes the news. Nothing special here, anything that appears to be non-Western will make the Western news whether it is from a state ally or a state enemy.

 

That is not true, even news media are owned by someone and gets their salary from someone. You will not see mainstream media report about a case that would hurt political relationships with a state ally. How was the western mainstream news media used to sway public opinion before the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq?

How much did you read in western news media about how saudi directly funded daesh(la)? How the US "accidentally" gave weapons to daesh again and again? How some mystery country would buy all the oil that daesh(la) would steal? How about some news regarding whos selling the saudis all these bombs and weapons they kill poor people in Yemen with? 

Now tell me one positive news report in the western mainstream media regarding the IR. Please do so.

Edited by IbnSina

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They release these type of news after marriage  with girls under 13 years old banned complete  by Iranian parliament , as their propaganda agenda against Iran as they increased anti shia islamic propagan da by start of Muharram every dat that we become nearer to Arbaeen their level of propaganda increases 

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5 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Women getting abused is not something that hits international news

That's not true. In fact, now more than ever, domestic abuse and sexism is being highlighted in the media, especially if its related to the Middle East and Asia. I gave you three examples, and the examples I gave were umbrella examples, there are thousands of cases reported that are almost identical to the ones I had given you. 

8 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

You basically said feminism means equal rights between genders and that it contradicts certain rulings. Followed by statement that feminism does not hurt people.

If you would implement your sentences then you would go against the Holy Quran regarding the rights of men and women and that would most certainty hurt society and the people in it. 

Feminism is the belief that both genders are equal and deserve equal rights. I couldn't care less about the marches where women walk around half naked and demanding horrendous things. That's not real feminism. Read up on the original feminist movement and what it stood for. Do you believe that your wife/sister/mother do not deserve the equal right to vote, for example? That doesn't violate any Islamic rulings (as far as I know) but it's still feminist. 

As for my own personal standing, I've adjusted the way I speak on feminism. I know now that feminism doesnt apply to all aspects of Islam. There are certain rulings that may not necessarily be classified as "feminist" and I'm still trying to find answers as to why. Hence, I've been using the term "feminist perspective". In certain cases, a feminist perspective is a blessing and a saviour. Such as in the example I gave. 

14 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

As far as your example goes regarding a man that wishes to abuse his rights.

The problem is such a man did not abuse any of his rights. In his eyes, a woman's place is at home, serving him, and if she expresses distaste in not having a job that contributes to society directly, he'd think she's being disrespectful and disobedient, hence he'd keep her at home and hit her because he believes he is disciplining her. In the example I gave, he is not really abusing his rights. Correct me if I'm wrong. In the eyes of the sharia, I'm almost certain that the man would not be viewed as the villian. In fact, he would be victimised for having such a "disobedient" wife. 

18 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

"Do you realize the difference between a bias report against the people of nation/from a certain culture/followers of a religion VS a bias report against the government of a nation? Please answer this question because I think this is where you loose what I am saying."

I understand. But Iran is literally called the "Islamic republic of Iran". Iran is meant to be one with Islam. Anyone who disrespects Iran is supposedly disrespecting Islam because Iran claims to be the representation of Shia Islam. I don't know if I'm making my point clearly, but do you get what I mean? For example, if media continuously targeted say, Russia, it is for their government. So much propaganda against Russia everywhere, as well as North Korea. But this propaganda is not because of the religion either of these countries follow. It's because of their politics. Iran and Saudi both claim to be Islamic governments. Their whole governments (allegedly) are founded upon Islamic principles (obviously the execution of it is debatable). So, when either countries are criticised, yes it is their government that's been subject to bias. But what is their government supposed to be? Islamic. 

23 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Ok, so let me get this straight: You do not actually care whether this report is true or not because things like this happens anyways?"

I do care, if it's untrue then of course there has been a huge injustice that has damaged the name of Shia Islam further. But if it's not, I wouldn't be surprised. Because Iran isn't paradise, neither is any other country on the planet. Stories like this are repeated time and time again, some are concealed perfectly, and some make it out to the news. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that this happens (and even worse things) everyday all around the world. 

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