Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Nokar e Ali

A Question from a Christian

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

On ‎10‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 4:42 PM, MartyS said:

He explained His perspective about marriage from a heavenly view in Luke 20:27-36...

1] How is this  a "his"?  Did lsa-a.s. speak as he-a.s. was told to speak John 12:49ff or did he-a.s. speak on his own John5:30? ? ?

2] The whole passage is a post-Resurrection context.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, hasanhh said:

1] How is this  a "his"?  Did lsa-a.s. speak as he-a.s. was told to speak John 12:49ff or did he-a.s. speak on his own John5:30? ? ?

2] The whole passage is a post-Resurrection context.

Hi, Hassnhh,

As you stated in 2] John is speaking post-resurrection in John 12:39, explaining how the people did not believe Jesus--just as Isaiah had prophesied they would not believe--because God hardened the people's hearts so they would not see and understand and turn (repent) and God would heal (forgive) them (for putting Him/Jesus to death). 

I believe Jesus did not marry because He was focused on His mission to earth from heaven--to save the world by giving His life as payment for the sins of mankind.

1] In John 5:30, Jesus is speaking and confirms He came to earth to do the will of the Father.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MartyS said:

l believe Jesus did not marry because...

1] l think he-a.s. did. Here's why: lt is chris1ian tradition that his-a.s. ministry began at age 32. Nothing is known before then except 3 versions of the birth story (the one not in the NT is where the birth is in a cave).  ln mosque they say age 40 referring to Ayat  46:15 and what is known or inferred from the history of the Prophets-a.s.

So what did he do in the meantime? Jesus-a.s. was a Rabbi, Musa-a.s. a sheepherder, Muhammad-s.a.w.s. was a camel packer(in the blunt sense) and merchant, David-a.s. a soldier, Solomon-a.s. a king, and so on.

2] Your use of reference to John 5:30  is a wrongly construed. Sent? Jesus sent his Disciples hither and thither, so did they come from Heaven too? He-a.s. was born (down) here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Greetings, thank you for your reply!

I love the recording of Jesus' birth in a stable/cave...for where else would a Lamb be born? Jesus speaks of why He came, why He was sent by God from heaven to earth, as it is recorded for us in the gospel of the apostle John, the beloved...

"Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? But for this purpose I have come to this hour.
Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again." The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, "An angel has spoken to him." Jesus answered, "This voice has come for your sake, not mine.
Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. - John 12:27-33

...also, we believe Jesus died at the age of 33. Thank you for sharing your teachings with me!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MartyS said:

I love the recording of Jesus' birth in a stable/cave...for where else would a Lamb be born? Jesus speaks of

Hi we (shias)  belive  that Jesus born in open space ,in Quran says that her mother gave birth ,behind a  dried palm tree that hasn't leaf & date but after giving birth God orderd her to shake it & fresh date descends from tree & hit ground with her feet that cold water came out also in shia Narations it said that place was near the place that Imam Hussain (as) buried now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is very interesting. Thanks. Here is a shortened version of the Bible accounts found in Matthew 1 and Luke 2...

The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. (Matthew 1:1) ...So all the generations from Abraham to David were fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon to the Christ fourteen generations. Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:17-21) And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the town of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to be registered with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child. And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn. (Luke 2:4-7)

Blessings!

P.S. Revelation 12:1-6 describes the birth of Jesus like this (parentheses are mine)...

A sign appeared in heaven. A woman crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. (The pain of childbirth was the curse upon womankind as a result of Eve's disobedience.) Another sign appeared in heaven, a great red dragon. His tail swept a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to earth. (The dragon is surely the same serpent who deceived Eve. His curse was, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring.") The dragon stood before the woman that He might devour the child. A male child who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron was caught up to God. (He tries to devour the child. He tried to put to death the man on the cross. However, the male child will rule all the nations with a rod of iron.) The woman fled into the wilderness to be nourished for 1,260 days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/8/2018 at 11:44 PM, hasanhh said:

1] l think he-a.s. did. Here's why: lt is chris1ian tradition that his-a.s. ministry began at age 32. Nothing is known before then except 3 versions of the birth story (the one not in the NT is where the birth is in a cave).  ln mosque they say age 40 referring to Ayat  46:15 and what is known or inferred from the history of the Prophets-a.s.

So what did he do in the meantime? Jesus-a.s. was a Rabbi, Musa-a.s. a sheepherder, Muhammad-s.a.w.s. was a camel packer(in the blunt sense) and merchant, David-a.s. a soldier, Solomon-a.s. a king, and so on.

I'm a little confused by the association of 46:15. Almost sounds like maturity doesn't happen until age 40. No mention of marriage in the Ayat.

Does the phrase "let my children also be righteous" imply that everyone should be married and have children before 40, (before maturity)?

There are no records Jesus ever had children, and you know if He did we'd all know. 

Considering Joseph was a carpenter it's easy to assume Jesus helped Joseph and learned the trade. 

The only record between the birth and the ministry is of Jesus, (preteen), hanging with the church elders and amazing them with His knowledge and wisdom. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

1]I'm a little confused by the association of 46:15. Almost sounds like maturity doesn't happen until age 40. No mention of marriage in the Ayat.

2]Does the phrase "let my children also be righteous" imply that everyone should be married and have children before 40, (before maturity)?

3]There are no records Jesus ever had children, and you know if He did we'd all know. 

4]Considering Joseph was a carpenter it's easy to assume Jesus helped Joseph and learned the trade. 

5]The only record between the birth and the ministry is of Jesus, (preteen), hanging with the church elders and amazing them with His knowledge and wisdom. 

1] John 8:57  --so Jesus-a.s. was over 40.  lt's is "full-strength" mind and body not maturity as we understand it.

2] No.

3] Correct, and where this was written is considered heretical.

4] lf there was a Joseph, there is no writing saying he was a carpenter. lt is a made-up story like the paralyzed woman story that didn't have her body healed but her "spirit". lt is garbage the Church made up. My sister was sent to Catholic school and she'd tell all these stories made up about Mary.

5] Look at Luke 2:42ff and Lk 4:16. Rabbinical schools were well established in the 1st Century C.C. ln Luke 2, we are supposed to believe Mary lost her son for three days. Or that Jesus would break the "honoring your mother" Commandment by sneaking-off? :hahaha: He was in school like other boys.  0r, in 4:16 why would a "son of a god" need to read????   Then, in Matt. 26:25, 26:49; Mark 9:4-5, 11:21, 14:45; John 3:2, 6:26  Jesus is called "Rabbi" and as a note, John(Baptisit) is also.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/11/2018 at 2:58 AM, hasanhh said:

1] John 8:57  --so Jesus-a.s. was over 40.  lt's is "full-strength" mind and body not maturity as we understand it.

2] No.

3] Correct, and where this was written is considered heretical.

4] lf there was a Joseph, there is no writing saying he was a carpenter. lt is a made-up story like the paralyzed woman story that didn't have her body healed but her "spirit". lt is garbage the Church made up. My sister was sent to Catholic school and she'd tell all these stories made up about Mary.

5] Look at Luke 2:42ff and Lk 4:16. Rabbinical schools were well established in the 1st Century C.C. ln Luke 2, we are supposed to believe Mary lost her son for three days. Or that Jesus would break the "honoring your mother" Commandment by sneaking-off? :hahaha: He was in school like other boys.  0r, in 4:16 why would a "son of a god" need to read????   Then, in Matt. 26:25, 26:49; Mark 9:4-5, 11:21, 14:45; John 3:2, 6:26  Jesus is called "Rabbi" and as a note, John(Baptisit) is also.

1], Not exactly what I take from it. Not yet 50 means less than 50 but no limitations at forty. I know people older than I who never reached full strength mind and body yet. 

4] Matthew 13:55  Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? ...

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

1], Not exactly what I take from it. Not yet 50 means less than 50 but no limitations at forty. I know people older than I who never reached full strength mind and body yet. 

4] Matthew 13:55  Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? ...

 

 

1] "Not yet 50"  means he is close to 50. Cf  "barely 40" as a comparative.

 1] "full strength", ashudd,  is understood as 18-30 years of age.

4] "carpenter's son" is not the same as being a carpenter. Same with "electrician's son". Besides, Gospel of Matthew has "Rabbi". As for Matt.13:55 is only one instance. When Rome in the 300s compiled this gospel they had ten versions of Matthew (Eusebius, History of the Church ).

Edited by hasanhh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/13/2018 at 4:58 PM, hasanhh said:

1] "Not yet 50"  means he is close to 50. Cf  "barely 40" as a comparative.

 1] "full strength", ashudd,  is understood as 18-30 years of age.

4] "carpenter's son" is not the same as being a carpenter. Same with "electrician's son". Besides, Gospel of Matthew has "Rabbi". As for Matt.13:55 is only one instance. When Rome in the 300s compiled this gospel they had ten versions of Matthew (Eusebius, History of the Church ).

Am I late? Did I miss anything? Haven't sat down much in the last while. Not hard to catch up on this thread.

Not yet...

50 is a random number. 100 would have worked, 1000 would have been just as random. Actually 2000 years is closer but still random....pick a number. They were questioning Jesus about seeing Abraham. This is just before the famous verse that had Christians arguing Jesus was God over 300 years later. There's a much deeper underlying meaning in these verses they missed. It kinda sucks to miss the message and the clues because of a random number.

So "full strength" describes Jesus about the age as calculated from the Bible?

In those days boys learned their father's trade. Names were derived from occupational lineage. Everybody was "son of", like "ibn" is used in Arabic. The Middle East culture continued this tradition longer than the Western culture. It was less common a son would turn from the trade of his father. It's still not an oddity to see a son carry on his father's business. Of course the last 100 years has changed everything.

Hop, skip, jump, Matthew calls Jesus Rabbi, also John the Baptist.    Rabbi =  teacher of Torah. The name is still used today. 10 versions of Matthew, do you have the sources? 14 versions of the Quran, want sources? I don't see how this matters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Son of Placid said:

In those days boys learned their father's trade

lf you take the "son of god" seriously, then his trade would be "god's trade".

Not a nail banger-carpenter as the mythology pretends. lt is inconsistent.

Edited by hasanhh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Am I late? Did I miss anything? Haven't sat down much in the last while. Not hard to catch up on this thread.

Not yet...

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235055614-a-creator-or-creators/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-3176400

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, hasanhh said:

lf you take the "son of god" seriously, then his trade would be "god's trade".

Not a nail banger-carpenter as the mythology pretends. lt is inconsistent.

Basically, son of a carpenter is how Jesus was described once. I'm not hearing anybody say He had any other trade, nor that He didn't bang a few nails. 

If "God's trade" is becoming a Prophet, gathering followers and teaching men about God...Wait. stop making my points for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

You have trouble with Jesus being a rabbi?

No, of course not. As a secular observation, who better to criticize the rabbis than another rabbi?

lt is the carpenter myth, and the accusation his mother was shacking-around while still pregnant that l have a real problem with. That is blasphemous to me.

Edited by hasanhh
word changes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/2/2018 at 7:00 AM, Nokar e Ali said:

AoA. I’m a Shia living in USA. I’ve a friend who is Christian and she wants to know more about Islam (Shia’ism). One thing that doesn’t make her satisfy is questioning Muhammad (saww) wives, as why did he had multiple wives and she compares him to Jesus saying that Jesus had a simple life with pure soul because he never married any woman. And why are Muslims allowed to merry 4 wives? I will really appreciate if you could answer these questions so that she can understand better about them. 
Thanks 

Prophet Solomon a.s had 300 wives and Prophet David a.s also had wives in numbers. Prophet (PBUHHP) had some exclusive rights and some exclusive obligations. Such as Prophets can marry more than four because they can be just to every wife caring them equally but an ordinary male may prefer one of his wife and do not have same respect or love for other wives that is why Allah (AWJ) says to Muslims: "Marry one it is better for you if you had known". Prophet (PBUHHP) was forbidden from taking Sadqa charity and it was obligatory upon him to pray Tahjud but its not obligatory prayer for other Muslims.

The reason for which four marriages is permitted to males is because of wars as men used to die in wars so there used to be less males as compared to females therefore they were allowed to have four wives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/25/2018 at 9:33 PM, hasanhh said:

No, of course not. As a secular observation, who better to criticize the rabbis than another rabbi?

lt is the carpenter myth, and the accusation his mother was shacking-around while still pregnant that l have a real problem with. That is blasphemous to me.

I thought I had responded to this but must have left it in limbo.

I haven't heard the accusation his mother was shacking-around while still pregnant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I haven't heard the accusation his mother was

Even when l was in grade school, our church admitted that (according to this Bible story) they were not married because Mary-a.s. was pregnant. The use of the word "shacking" l heard in college.

As you know, as all the other rasulallahs and imams were, Mary and lsa were hated by a lot of people. And you know from Polycarp everything about that time was attacked, messed-with and persecuted. So pejorative stories were made up. This is one of them. Another example is Joseph's "dream" and from that we are to 'believe' that Mary and (a) Joseph (?) ran away in the night without warning the other mothers allowing the babes and toddlers to be killed. Herod's soldiers thereby preoccupied while they made their escape. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Even when l was in grade school, our church admitted that (according to this Bible story) they were not married because Mary-a.s. was pregnant. The use of the word "shacking" l heard in college.

As you know, as all the other rasulallahs and imams were, Mary and lsa were hated by a lot of people. And you know from Polycarp everything about that time was attacked, messed-with and persecuted. So pejorative stories were made up. This is one of them. Another example is Joseph's "dream" and from that we are to 'believe' that Mary and (a) Joseph (?) ran away in the night without warning the other mothers allowing the babes and toddlers to be killed. Herod's soldiers thereby preoccupied while they made their escape. 

You heard some ugly twisted stories. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Son of Placid said:

You heard some ugly twisted stories. 

l know why you react this way -not that l am criticizing.

lt is hard to fathom. Personally, this is why l do not believe it -that story.   Yet it is used as a literary device as a conduit to get to "call out of Egypt' place ---but then there is only a return and not a "call" as with Musa-a.s. or lbrahim-a.s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...