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In the Name of God بسم الله

Showing body parts after proposal

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A woman's permission is not required in the case of a glance in daily affairs. For example, if I've been told by my sister that Elizabeth is really pretty and she'd make a good wife for me, I can look

This thread is a good example of a ruling's understanding gone completely wrong due to modern customs and norms and as well as due to complete absence of knowledge of the rulings of the Ahl al-Sunnah

I had intended on writing a detailed post on this ruling, and I have finally gotten the time to publish it. It can be read here: Looking at a Woman Being Sought For Marriage http://www.iqraonline.net/

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5 hours ago, shia_100 said:

Does this ruling of looking at her during her daily life apply only when she’s aware that you’re a serious candidate or  can you look at her even if you haven’t spoke to her yet and she doesn’t know anything about you?

How would you even find her in a situation like this? Presuming she’s a good Muslim girl? And men and women are not allowed to gaze at the opposite sex. You get a pass if you’re seeiously going to marry her and are known by the family and her as a candidate...

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5 hours ago, Carlzone said:

Exactly. My problem with this fatwa is the disregard of permission which gives pervs a free card to prey upon nonsuspecting females. That is extremely disrespectful. 

Since men don't feel shame the same way females do I'm gonna give an exaggerated example to hopefully make them understand a little better. 

What if stranger men took photos of your intimate details and without your knowledge or consent showed these pictures to sisters who are looking to get married. These women then check if you literally measure up to their standards and then decide to reject or pursue you. If they reject you then these sisters will walk around knowing exactly what your intimate details are and you might even bump into them without knowing any of this. Would you be happy about a fatwa allowing such treatment of men without their consent? And even if they pursue you, you might not even be interested in them in the majority of cases anyway. 

Lol that is pretty exaggerated but also terrifying 

 

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9 hours ago, Carlzone said:

Exactly. My problem with this fatwa is the disregard of permission which gives pervs a free card to prey upon nonsuspecting females. That is extremely disrespectful. 

Since men don't feel shame the same way females do I'm gonna give an exaggerated example to hopefully make them understand a little better. 

What if stranger men took photos of your intimate details and without your knowledge or consent showed these pictures to sisters who are looking to get married. These

Salam it's because you don't consider situation of their time with our time the Fatwa based on hadiths & history of that era in early ages of Islam free Women were rarely going outside of their Houses except if they were poor that couldn't have servants & when they were out of house they were using a heavy Hijab , all imams were supporting using Hijab for slave women but 3 caliphs & Ummayids & Abbasids were against using Hijab by female servants 

it's a famous story that one day a blind man came to mosque & asked charity from Prophet (pbu) & prophet didn't has money with himself so he sent him to house of Lady Fatima when blind man entered to Lady Fatima (sa) she covered herself & when prophet (pbu) asked why she did it while he couldn't see him ,she said i afraid that my smell of fregnance  reaches him ,but we don't see such level of Hijab in our communities & what muslim women that use without Chador is like as costumes of muslim women in their houses in private for their family in early ages.

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Salaam alaykum,

I think in many cultures, the female relatives of the potential suitor do their homework even before a formal proposal is done. Women have enough ways to get to know the necessary details of a girl their brother/son/nephew would want to propose to, without resorting to any strange requests (in a cultural context) or underhand means of taking pictures secretly. The generally apparent features even for a female who dresses modestly in front of other females should generally be enough for a person to decide whether or not the female candidate is suitable for him as a wife. The basic body size/shape, existence and length of hair etc can be observed by female relatives and the necessary information transmitted to the potential suitor. I don't really think the "devil is in the details" applies where one has become a serious suitor, unless a very major issue comes up. :mod: This is part of the reasons marriage contracts don't have details of body parts of existence and pre existence of specific physical attributes, unlike other contracts. You can't exactly divorce a person because you thought your potential wife had 60cm length hair , but after she became your wife you realised it is 56 cms. :worried:

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12 hours ago, Carlzone said:

Of course bro. 

But why should we be prevented from having fun at parties because pervs might be watching? We are already extremely restricted as hijabis and now we need to cover ourselves from women too. I personally don't like to be covered up. And I happen to like tight clothes. I'm usually the one wearing the tightest outfits amongst females. I even do yoga and other types of excersize at home now because I don't like to have to wear all those extra layers of clothes like I used to in yoga groups. I want to feel free. 

Unfortunate but perhaps a bitter truth in your surroundings dear.

Here (where I live) it is not this hard for a female to be hijabless within females. It is hard but not that hard.

You are free in your heart with the love of Aal(asws) e Mohammad(saww) enjoy that freedom and live every moment in their(asws) love.

As for this world's freedom I hope you get a husband who could take you to some place where you feel comfortable and happy.

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3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam it's because you don't consider situation of their time with our time the Fatwa based on hadiths & history of that era in early ages of Islam free Women were rarely going outside of their Houses except if they were poor that couldn't have servants & when they were out of house they were using a heavy Hijab , all imams were supporting using Hijab for slave women but 3 caliphs & Ummayids & Abbasids were against using Hijab by female servants 

it's a famous story that one day a blind man came to mosque & asked charity from Prophet (pbu) & prophet didn't has money with himself so he sent him to house of Lady Fatima when blind man entered to Lady Fatima (sa) she covered herself & when prophet (pbu) asked why she did it while he couldn't see him ,she said i afraid that my smell of fregnance  reaches him ,but we don't see such level of Hijab in our communities & what muslim women that use without Chador is like as costumes of muslim women in their houses in private for their family in early ages.

And also when Prophet(saww) asked as to why did you(asws) cover yourself when the person is blind so Lady Syeda(asws) replied by saying that yes baba he is blind but I am not so that is why I took the veil.

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On 1/9/2019 at 3:23 AM, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

And also when Prophet(saww) asked as to why did you(asws) cover yourself when the person is blind so Lady Syeda(asws) replied by saying that yes baba he is blind but I am not so that is why I took the veil.

Exactly. 

And they want us to feel happy with a fatwa that makes it halal for others to show pictures of us to nonmahrams without our knowledge. 

I have had this happen to me without my knowledge and even if the result was "positive" I was [upset] knowing that they took pictures of me without telling me and showed it to a nonmahram without my consent.

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On 1/9/2019 at 3:30 AM, Carlzone said:

Exactly. 

And they want us to feel happy with a fatwa that makes it halal for others to show pictures of us to nonmahrams without our knowledge. 

I have had this happen to me without my knowledge and even if the result was "positive" I was [upset] knowing that they took pictures of me without telling me and showed it to a nonmahram without my consent.

I cannot agree with you more on this subject and that's why we have Aql and are not bound to believe on every fatwa that we hear because those who are giving fatwa are bound to commit mistake themselves in the first place as they are not maasoom(asws).

But some people are taught to be believe in all the fatwas that they hear and that's how they are brought up.

They do not use their own intellect, their own Aql.

We must do everything and at least try to do everything in accordance to Quran, Prophet(saww) and his Ahlul Bayt(asws). Whether it is a Fiqh issue or whatsoever, they(asws) have answered each and everything and have made everything clear for us.

And this is why in Quran and in Nehj Ul Balagha Moula Ali(asws) has warned us of 'Blind Taqleed'.

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21 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

And this is why modest clothing is advised in Islam and precautions should be taken.

@Laayla and @Carlzone are examples in maintaining modesty and being aware of loop holes in today's technological world.

Carlzon you even cover the camera of your webcam when you are not using it. Very nice.

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum

Thank you brother. If only we can reflect at the du32 for Imam Mahdi, and not just recite it but also ponder the meaning behind it.  We are living in a time where we are missing the basics of our deen.  God keep us steadfast.

The dua for Imam al Mahdi mentions the following

O Allah!
· Award dignity and peace of mind to old people,
· Confer repentance and turning away from sin to our young people,
· Bestow modesty and chastity to our women.

 

وَعَلَىٰ مَشَايِخِنَا بِٱلْوَقَارِ وَٱلسَّكِينَةِ

وَعَلَىٰ ٱلشَّبَابِ بِٱلإِنَابَةِ وَٱلتَّوْبَةِ

وَعَلَىٰ ٱلنِّسَاءِ بِٱلْحَيَاءِ وَٱلْعِفَّةِ

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Laayla said:

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum

Thank you brother. If only we can reflect at the du32 for Imam Mahdi, and not just recite it but also ponder the meaning behind it.  We are living in a time where we are missing the basics of our deen.  God keep us steadfast.

The dua for Imam al Mahdi mentions the following

O Allah!
· Award dignity and peace of mind to old people,
· Confer repentance and turning away from sin to our young people,
· Bestow modesty and chastity to our women.

 

وَعَلَىٰ مَشَايِخِنَا بِٱلْوَقَارِ وَٱلسَّكِينَةِ

وَعَلَىٰ ٱلشَّبَابِ بِٱلإِنَابَةِ وَٱلتَّوْبَةِ

وَعَلَىٰ ٱلنِّسَاءِ بِٱلْحَيَاءِ وَٱلْعِفَّةِ

 

 

 

walaiki assalam

Yes this indeed is something to think about.

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On 10/3/2018 at 11:47 PM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

:salam:

Classical scholars (unlike what Sayyid Sīstānī says) would say that this ruling is talking about someone who is merely interested in getting married, and is trying to find someone, even if he has not yet decided to marry any specific woman. In that situation, one of the things that is permissible for him to do is to look at the face, hands, hair and so on. 

...

The biggest debate is not on whether it is allowed to look or not, but the debate is over what is one allowed to look at? A great number of classical Shī’ī jurists limited this ruling to just the face and hands of a woman, and explicitly prohibited other parts such as the hair or other parts of her body. Furthermore, some jurists would say that if a man is unable to look at the woman himself, because she is overly covered, and is unable to get satisfactory knowledge about her condition, then he should send a woman to go and look for him. For example, al-Shahīd al-Thānī writes in his Masālik al-Afhām (vol. 7, pg. 40-41):

...

Of course, if a woman dresses with a lot of layers where it is hard to tell anything, then in that case before he even sends a marriage proposal a woman who can be trusted can be sent to observe the woman and describe her roughly for him. This is not meant to be a detailed inspection.

...

 

I read your piece on Iqraonline and it was very informative, and it also sounds much more sensible than asking her to strip in her father's house when preparing to propose. I only have two questions:

1. Since a woman (especially in the early period of Islam) could very well be a non-Muslim or someone with any personality trait you wouldn't want to be exposed to for the rest of your life, would an 'intent to marry' connotate awareness of a woman's religious affiliation and other desirable traits? It would seem so given the emphasis on prioritizing akhlaq/deen over beauty in the hadith literature, but im not entirely sure. 

2. For those who decide to send a woman to inspect the features of a potential wife, would this very limited inspection exclude the hair, neck and legs (besides the awrah that she is obliged to conceal in front of other females either way)? I ask because you said it isn't meant to be a detailed inspection and the hadith only mentions the ankles and odour as things to be inspected. The Nabi is the examplar for all muslims afterall. 

 

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On 10/1/2018 at 12:40 AM, Sumerian said:

How? Makes sense. don’t want to be partnering up with a deciever.

This is really strange, did she put that defect there, if not then who did? How is she deceiving when she'd been created like so? Who put that 'defect' there? am having difficulties eating & digesting this. These defects, shapes & skin types are not necessarily important, your judgement is clouded. 'fair in the eyes of men are things they covet, women, children...' 

So it seems that you'll disown your daughter because of a defect, she should be beautiful lest you're deceived. No wonder our sisters are like this, they try to conceal defects & in so doing become fake. Isn't compatibility looked for, like can so & so live together irrespective of defects, race, virgin or not, with children or not, wheeled chair, body shape, age, etc.

It is true, nobody likes to partner up with a deceiver, the deceiver is the one who shows you the defects in the creation of the Creator(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

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2 hours ago, Mzwakhe said:

This is really strange, did she put that defect there, if not then who did? How is she deceiving when she'd been created like so? Who put that 'defect' there? am having difficulties eating & digesting this. These defects, shapes & skin types are not necessarily important, your judgement is clouded. 'fair in the eyes of men are things they covet, women, children...' 

So it seems that you'll disown your daughter because of a defect, she should be beautiful lest you're deceived. No wonder our sisters are like this, they try to conceal defects & in so doing become fake. Isn't compatibility looked for, like can so & so live together irrespective of defects, race, virgin or not, with children or not, wheeled chair, body shape, age, etc.

It is true, nobody likes to partner up with a deceiver, the deceiver is the one who shows you the defects in the creation of the Creator(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

I don't understand your point bruv. This is a known fatwa, that deception is haram. What it means is that she concealed things from her husband, when he proposed, that should he have known about them wouldn't have married her.

It doesn't need to be physical defect, it can be a disease - like she has AIDs for example, but concealed it, because he wouldn't have married her had he known of it.

Or that they married based on the understanding that she is a virgin, but it turns out she isn't. In fact in such a case, he has the right to annull the contract.

The point is: Concealment for the sake of deception is haram.

I believe you misunderstood me. I'm not shaming people with defects, I'm saying decieving people (by concealment) for the sake of marriage is haram. 

Has nothing to do with disowning or hating people or having prejudice or whatever you are implying.

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9 hours ago, Sumerian said:

The point is:

ok, I get you now

 

9 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Concealment for the sake of deception is haram.

Let us look @ pre concealment, what led to the concealment in the first place, reason for meeting up is marriage in the name of Islam. Once our human requirements & that of Islam differ whilst focusing on the same subject of marriage then there'll be some concealment. 

9 hours ago, Sumerian said:

believe you misunderstood me.

 

9 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Has nothing to do with disowning or hating people or having prejudice or whatever you are implying

Got really disturbed, my apologies.

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11 hours ago, Sumerian said:

I'm not shaming people with defects

Would you marry someone who is compatible with you but is on wheelchair?

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1 hour ago, habib e najjaar said:

Given that this fatwa relates to marriage, even if it is permissible to ask for a display of whatever hair body etc one wants to see, in the end, the other party is under no obligation to continue talks or proceed to marry someone who makes them uncomfortable for whatever reason :shifty:

is it all in the Qur'an though, all this permissibility to see a piece of hair or body shape before marrying or is it cultural? 

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