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Showing body parts after proposal

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On 10/4/2018 at 7:34 AM, 2Timeless said:

Not according to the ruling.

@Abu Hadi, yes there are perverts who will take advantage. BUT what's worse is that they're not really classed as "perverts". I personally know of women who take pictures and videos of the younger potentional brides, and then show their sons and nephews etc these photos. It's not a small minority. It happens alot. And alot of time, no one hears about it. 

I never completely said this ruling is derogatory or objectifying to women, because the hijab is a barrier, and physical attraction is important. So if certain women are comfortable with acting upon it that's fine. What I don't understand is why it needs to be done without the woman's approval or knowledge. 

I did. Any guy who has the "intent" of marriage? 

I can't imagine it being done without the potential wife's consent or knowledge. I know it happens, but it shouldn't. 

If they guy has shown 'intent' then obviously the potential wife would know about him and would be able to give her consent. If she doesn't know about him, then there is no 'intent'. 

The 'pre-marriage' step that shows intent is the potential husband going to the father or paternal grandfather and asking about the potential bride with the intent of marriage and this is the best one with the best chance of being sucessful, IMHO. This is also the way that is encouraged by our Imams(a.s)

I think the 'viewing' should be done 'in person' if at all possible, and I totally disagree with the exchanging of pictures unless there is no other way (i.e. the potential bride and groom are, for example, in different countries) or in the case that the potential bride does not normally wear hijab. If pictures are exchanged, it must be to the groom directly, and not thru a third party, and the potential groom must be an honest and trustworthy person. Showing a picture of a women who wears hijab without her hijab to a non mahram who is not the potential groom, after the groom has shown intent, is a serious act of thulm (opression) on the sister and the person who showed the picture to a non mahram is liable for punishment in this world as well as the next. 

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Whoever is interested in this ruling, please email your marja directly and get proper information. There's too much misinformation and misinterpretation going around as facts. The fatwa in no way means you can see a random hijabi without her hijab without her permission. Let's please not spread misinformation. 

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:salam:

I had intended on writing a detailed post on this ruling, and I have finally gotten the time to publish it. It can be read here: Looking at a Woman Being Sought For Marriage http://www.iqraonline.net/looking-at-a-woman-being-sought-for-marriage/

Wasalam

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On 9/30/2018 at 1:28 PM, Abu Hadi said:

The lady sits with him and talk in her cloths that she would wear in front of her family. Sometimes, she would wear makeup, done hair, 'dressed up' in other words.

I am glad there is modesty @Abu Hadi.

Some other people here talk as if it involves nudity. I think we have to be careful how we discuss this topic so people do not get mislead.

Even as a man grown up in the west this topic sounds uncomfortable to me because i have empathy for the ladies. This is purely my perspective because of the types of society we live in the west.

Some ladies were happy to take off their hijab and show me photos of themselves in their everyday home clothes without me asking when we talked more seriously about marriage. I wondered why they did that but i have the answer now. Jazakalah. 

Edited by Murtaza1

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2 hours ago, Carlzone said:

Ok, so now we need to cover up from women too. Hijab 24/7 and wearing abayas at parties. Great.

Why? Just because some woman may describe you to a person who may be interested in marrying you and proposing to you? What is wrong with that?

Wasalam

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16 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Why? Just because some woman may describe you to a person who may be interested in marrying you and proposing to you? What is wrong with that?

Wasalam

Many women are not at all comfortable with showing themselves without hijab to nonmahrams. Let alone to creepy unknown men who feel that it's ok to violate his eventual future wife that way. 

I don't like the dishonest way of doing it behind a female's back. If you value a genuine, authentic and honest relationship, then a man who is ok with doing something like that is not an appealing man in terms of marriage.

Also, if the female will say no to 99% of men, why should they see her without hijab? 

It's more reasonable to check if she's even interested before random dudes that she'd never consider are seeing all her beauty.

When a man does get married to a female, will he be comfortable knowing that God knows how many men have seen her without hijab?

Besides, a momin should want for others what he wants for himself. Is he ok with random dudes checking out his sisters or daughters? If not, then he shouldn't do it to other people's sisters or daughters either.

Also, it could even be haram as some sisters are married without telling others. I know several such cases. So if a stranger woman takes a picture of them and shows it to men while the sister in fact is married  - then that is a violation of both that sister and her husband. 

It's better to man up and talk to the sister and see her IRL in a normal environment without hiding in a bush. If they don't find eachother attractive, then that's that. No one dies. Life goes on without dishonest methods. 

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2 hours ago, Carlzone said:

Many women are not at all comfortable with showing themselves without hijab to nonmahrams. Let alone to creepy unknown men who feel that it's ok to violate his eventual future wife that way. 

I don't like the dishonest way of doing it behind a female's back. If you value a genuine, authentic and honest relationship, then a man who is ok with doing something like that is not an appealing man in terms of marriage.

Also, if the female will say no to 99% of men, why should they see her without hijab? 

It's more reasonable to check if she's even interested before random dudes that she'd never consider are seeing all her beauty.

When a man does get married to a female, will he be comfortable knowing that God knows how many men have seen her without hijab?

Besides, a momin should want for others what he wants for himself. Is he ok with random dudes checking out his sisters or daughters? If not, then he shouldn't do it to other people's sisters or daughters either.

Also, it could even be haram as some sisters are married without telling others. I know several such cases. So if a stranger woman takes a picture of them and shows it to men while the sister in fact is married  - then that is a violation of both that sister and her husband. 

It's better to man up and talk to the sister and see her IRL in a normal environment without hiding in a bush. If they don't find eachother attractive, then that's that. No one dies. Life goes on without dishonest methods. 

Maybe he wants to check if she’s bald and it is his right to see who he is marrying without hijab 

 

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55 minutes ago, Sisterfatima1 said:

Maybe he wants to check if she’s bald and it is his right to see who he is marrying without hijab 

 

He can ask her parents if she is bald. There is no need to go to that extent. Obviously he would find out eventually. So why would they lie?

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@Ibn al-Hussain

Brother you said;

When you look at the words of the classical jurists (Sunnī and Shīʿī), you will see that this ruling of looking is generally being implemented in day to day life – especially given the fact we are discussing a context where her permission is not required, and she does not know she is being looked at. In such a scenario, if a woman happens to expose part of her leg while walking, as would happen quite often in those days, or if a part of her neck or shoulder is exposed, or she did not wear many layers of clothes and hence the shape of certain parts of her body would be observable, like the curves and size of her chest, or if part of her hair would be showing as would also happen quite often, or part of her arm got exposed etc. then in those cases a man who is looking to get married could look at those parts of the body to get an idea of her. This is also why you find the scholars saying that this look can take place while she is standing, walking and sitting – a reference to day to day activities and movements.

____

Is the bolded part not debatable among scholars? Because you mentioned before scholars have differed on what a man can see, but in here you seem to generalise it - because it was done by accident?

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On 9/30/2018 at 5:29 PM, Sumerian said:

Also very expensive brother, you want to buy a house, pay for wedding, do everything for her, and also pay for surgery? Brother I'm not even 20 yet and your making me wanna not get married ever.. my pockets will be empty :hahaha::cry:

[edit] anyway, if you want a spouse it’s all relative to you and your tastes. Some people intelligence is enough of a beautifier, and can make even the most unattractive the most attractive. Physical beauty is temporary and serves a very material purpose, no doubt intelligence and spirituality can enhance physical beauty in the eyes of the SO

for me personally judging physical appearance like that seems very icky and make reflect wrongly on my part to be like that. If I like and Iam serious then will physical beauty be a dealbreaker? Despite making me feel a certain way? 

And it’s not like the woman is completely a mystery to you lol you know how her face looks like and a general idea of her physical attributes(height, voice(very important i think anyhow, smile, fashion sense, size of hands...there’s a lot you get to see) ...truly Allah is merciful 

Haha on a serious note

what if you spent all the time worrying about her beauty while neglecting to see her possible bad qualities. Which may in the long run overtake her beauty lol I find Some men can be really shortsighted and narrow minded on this 

bruh...I guess the old adage is true 

boys will be boys lol

Edited by Hameedeh
Personal details removed.

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55 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

Physical beauty is temporary and serves a very material purpose

Not necessarily because there are some very attractive ladies in our older generation that still look like 25. We older folks are from a different generation than one portrayed by media and popular culture to feed their own propaganda of bed ridden frailty. 80 year olds run marathons these days but a significant amount of younger people are looking older and ageing quicker because of life pressures etc. My heart goes out to them. Just an interesting thought I wanted to share after reading your comment.

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1 hour ago, Ralvi said:

[edit] anyway, if you want a spouse it’s all relative to you and your tastes. Some people intelligence is enough of a beautifier, and can make even the most unattractive the most attractive. Physical beauty is temporary and serves a very material purpose, no doubt intelligence and spirituality can enhance physical beauty in the eyes of the SO

for me personally judging physical appearance like that seems very icky and make reflect wrongly on my part to be like that. If I like and Iam serious then will physical beauty be a dealbreaker? Despite making me feel a certain way? 

And it’s not like the woman is completely a mystery to you lol you know how her face looks like and a general idea of her physical attributes(height, voice(very important i think anyhow, smile, fashion sense, size of hands...there’s a lot you get to see) ...truly Allah is merciful 

Haha on a serious note

what if you spent all the time worrying about her beauty while neglecting to see her possible bad qualities. Which may in the long run overtake her beauty lol I find Some men can be really shortsighted and narrow minded on this 

bruh...I guess the old adage is true 

boys will be boys lol

The fact of the matter is that physical beauty is mentioned in our Shi'i hadith literature as a recommendation to when finding a wife.

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8 minutes ago, Murtaza1 said:

Not necessarily because there are some very attractive ladies in our older generation that still look like 25. We older folks are from a different generation than one portrayed by media and popular culture to feed their own propaganda of bed ridden frailty. 80 year olds run marathons these days but a significant amount of younger people are looking older and ageing quicker because of life pressures etc. My heart goes out to them. Just an interesting thought I wanted to share after reading your comment.

Yeah I see but beauty does fade in my eyes anyway, like after earth It will probably not be the same 

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12 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

The fact of the matter is that physical beauty is mentioned in our Shi'i hadith literature as a recommendation to when finding a wife.

And Iam not denying it. Of course it plays a role. But I think we shouldn’t demand if it they don’t think it’s comfortable. I feel it’s already nice(or a privileged position) becuase you’re serious you can actually look at her now. Because it’s advised to not look at women in general. Because of the prospects of marriage and if you’re serious, you can do all the googly eyes you want lol

Edited by Ralvi

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It's also a matter of a female's sense of dignity and selfworth. You can be certain that you are very attractive and have loads of suitors desperate to marry you yet still feel very uneasy being treated like cattle. I think it's a matter of self respect. 

At the same time there are females who aren't particularly attractive at all yet they are willing to show everything to anyone. 

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16 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

Yeah I see but beauty does fade in my eyes anyway, like after earth It will probably not be the same 

Yes I agree with you to a certain extent. As they say 'beauty is in the eyes of the beholder'. What may seem pleasing to my senses may not mean same for another person. These days popular culture  promotes beauty in terms of  having a symmetrical face with evenly placed features and clear skin with natural skin  oils. It may be hard to believe for those who are very conditioned in their mentality by the media but there are people who find the opposite of this perspective as attractive. That is the grace of Allah. No body is really ugly because its all in the mind based on our experiences and personalities. There is someone out there for everybody.

Edited by Murtaza1

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2 hours ago, Sisterfatima1 said:

Maybe he wants to check if she’s bald and it is his right to see who he is marrying without hijab 

I'm amused every time this comment appears. Is baldness the worst conceivable physical defect that can be covered by clothing? 

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6 hours ago, Carlzone said:

Many women are not at all comfortable with showing themselves without hijab to nonmahrams. Let alone to creepy unknown men who feel that it's ok to violate his eventual future wife that way. 

 

How is it a violation of a future wife for someone to know what she looks like before he sends a proposal to her? You are just presuming you have random creepy guys going around asking descriptions of every girl they know of - this is not what the law is legislating. It is permitting a serious candidate to do so. Would you rather the person ends up marrying you and then divorcing you because he didn't like what he saw? Also, you are not giving these guys the benefit of the doubt, but giving all the women in your women gathering the benefit of the doubt that no one in there takes pictures and shares them around with other men of their family. The latter seems more naive than letting a serious candidate look at some picture or be given a description.

6 hours ago, Carlzone said:

I don't like the dishonest way of doing it behind a female's back. If you value a genuine, authentic and honest relationship, then a man who is ok with doing something like that is not an appealing man in terms of marriage. Also, if the female will say no to 99% of men, why should they see her without hijab? 

 

There is nothing dishonest about this. The same religion that has asked you to cover up has also given a serious candidate permission to look at you without hijab in such a scenario with the three, four conditions mentioned in the ruling.

6 hours ago, Carlzone said:

It's more reasonable to check if she's even interested before random dudes that she'd never consider are seeing all her beauty.

 

The ruling says he gives a reasonable probability she will say yes to the proposal. So that is already a condition mentioned in the ruling.

6 hours ago, Carlzone said:

When a man does get married to a female, will he be comfortable knowing that God knows how many men have seen her without hijab?

 

How is this any different than things like if a divorced or widowed woman marries again while her next husband knows that a previous man had not only seen but has had sexual relationships with her? These laws aren't based on someone's personal comfort level.

6 hours ago, Carlzone said:

Besides, a momin should want for others what he wants for himself. Is he ok with random dudes checking out his sisters or daughters? If not, then he shouldn't do it to other people's sisters or daughters either.

 

Why do you keep saying "random dudes"? We are talking about a marriage proposer here who is willing to spend the rest of his life with this woman. Not a "random dude".

6 hours ago, Carlzone said:

Also, it could even be haram as some sisters are married without telling others. I know several such cases. So if a stranger woman takes a picture of them and shows it to men while the sister in fact is married  - then that is a violation of both that sister and her husband. 

1

It isn't haram if they have hidden this information to such an extent that no one knows about it. We act based on apparent knowledge. Otherwise, it is for reasons like these and other reasons that it is mustahabb to announce one's marriage.

2 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Is the bolded part not debatable among scholars? Because you mentioned before scholars have differed on what a man can see, but in here you seem to generalise it - because it was done by accident?

1

Those who accept that a man can see beyond the face and hands do not debate this bolded part. We have a narration to back this up as well.

Wasalam

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4 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Those who accept that a man can see beyond the face and hands do not debate this bolded part. We have a narration to back this up as well.

Wasalam

Proof? Because I have not seen, for example, Sayyed Al-Sistani talk about this. He simply says neck, feet etc.. - it seems to me he just believes in the permissibility of seeing more body parts. Not that he supports seeing how curvy a woman is or her "chest size".

I know a narration exists, but I want to see proof of acceptance.

Edited by Sumerian

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