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In the Name of God بسم الله
Sumerian

Showing body parts after proposal

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6 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Very true. So if we know what a man looks like prior to marriage, shouldn’t the same hold true for a man? 

The man is not covering anyway. Like what sister @notme said;

9 hours ago, notme said:

Men have a lower clothing requirement anyway. She can already see him in the clothing he would wear in the house with his mehrams. 

 

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I understand the reasoning behind this but I think there’s too much focus on the outer appearance. Besides knowing someone is physically attractive from her face and hands(you are able to see her complexion, if there are any scars or acne, etc through this anyway). While I know certain things are just not attractive to certain people, I think someone’s akhlaq and taqwa (not sure if I used the right word here) are more important to be considered. Can’t you also get information from female relatives when they meet the girl alone? I’m sure they’d tell you if she was bald or something lol. I don’t think a man should start the process with the thought that he’ll able to see the woman in the clothing she would wear in front of a mahram. Also I don’t agree that we should present ourselves as perfect beings when we obviously aren’t. Once you get more serious with someone it’s probably a good idea to be more open with them. For example I have part of my hand was burned in childhood and has a visible scar that covers two fingers and part of my hand. It’s not always obvious but it makes me self conscious about myself so I told my husband about it before he even noticed. Of course he had no problem with it. So if there are things that make you self conscious or you think someone may have a problem with you can tak to them about it once it gets serious. Personally I don’t know what I would do because I haven’t been in a situation like this but if it got serious and I was sure about him I think I would be more open to it. 

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4 hours ago, Sumerian said:

 

Even if you are 100% sure he will be your permanent husband? 

Well they talk to each other, the father of the female talks to the male, they ask the community about him, they evaluate his piety. If he is a very good mu'min he would marry you for more than your looks. But you can never know the internal intention of people lol

Yes, even then. Only after the wedding he gets to see anything really. I'm not cattle that he's choosing for his farm. I'm a human being with a lot more to offer than my looks. I want a man who understands and appreciates this. 

By the way, you can't be 100% sure he's gonna be your permanent husband. I know a girl who got pregnant after the aqd but before the wedding and was left by the guy, most likely because he now regarded her as a [Edited Out]. 

Personally, I want to do my best to make sure he doesn't choose me for my looks. Unfortunately this is difficult to do even if you only show your face and hands, coz that shows a lot too. Plus even if you wear a abaya or wide clothes he will be able to tell whether you're curvy or not, small, medium or big sized etc. So you can't get away completely from this. 

I don't think you have so much to fear. If you think a girl is pretty enough by seeing her face and hands, the likelihood is very big that you will find her even more attractive without hijab. 

Also, I go to all female swimming pools and I have yet to see a woman with a physical defect. In fact, no matter how a woman's body is shaped they are still very beautiful. If I as a female find most women pretty, wouldn't a man think they are even prettier? 

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4 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

The same applies to women.

I believe we have a hadith that states that a woman's beauty is shown on her face, while a man's beauty is shown in his reasoning. 

Beauty is not men's strongest side unfortunately. God blessed women with beauty. Personally i think it's difficult to find ugly women. Some men are superficially beautiful but most aren't. Most men aren't very attractive, yet you see them with beautiful women. I used to be perplexed by this, as I personally appreciate beauty a lot. But then I had an interesting experience that changed my thinking. I became attracted to a really ugly guy because he was so beautiful on the inside. So now, if I like a guy's inside I will give him a chance and time, because I know attraction can develop with time. I think this is why most women can marry an ugly guy. 

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I think some of the sisters are exaggerating in their minds what this actually means in a practical manner. I also think the name of the thread and the way its presented leaves space for that. 

If a man wants to see a women he is asking for without her hijab he will first of all have to convince the father that he is serious and a possible match for his daughter and then the daughter has to consider the suitor someone who she might see herself with. If she doesnt, its already a no.

After that she can show herself dressed to the same degree as the man asking for her hand. You dont have to strip down naked for inspection, its not like that and if you dont want you can still refuse to remove your hijab. Nobody is going to force you to remove your hijab.

But if I was a women I would prefer to know that the guy does not find me attractive before marriage rather than after. If he says no to you after seeing you that does not mean that your ugly but that he personally did not find you physically attractive and thats that. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder as they say.

Personally, when I used to look for marriage, I would also talk to women who I did not straight away find attractive, just in case their personality and iman is special, which would make them more attractive. Some times people become uglier and uglier the more they speak.

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18 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Would like to hear the input from sisters @notme @Laayla @Islandsandmirrors @Carlzone @ireallywannaknow @eloquence @habib e najjaar @Hameedeh @Pearl178 @Miss Wonderful and any other sister on this issue. Thank you akhawati.

This was discussed previously. Rather than the man looking at his prospective bride without hijab, it's better for a man's female relatives to meet with the girl he will marry and they can assure him that they saw that she has hair, in case he has an aversion to marrying a girl who is bald or likes to shave all or part of her head. 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235052822-taking-off-hijab-after-marriage/?sortby=date

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6 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Also very expensive brother, you want to buy a house, pay for wedding, do everything for her, and also pay for surgery? Brother I'm not even 20 yet and your making me wanna not get married ever.. my pockets will be empty :hahaha::cry:

this is what men do in Iran , most of women do most of beauty surgeries after marriage with money of their husband .:)  anyway for knowing it you can go with her to expert physicians to diagnose both of you in Iran before marriage couples do routine diagnoses before developing engagement to permanent marriage .

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13 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

This was discussed previously. Rather than the man looking at his prospective bride without hijab, it's better for a man's female relatives to meet with the girl he will marry and they can assure him that they saw that she has hair, in case he has an aversion to marrying a girl who is bald or likes to shave all or part of her head. 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235052822-taking-off-hijab-after-marriage/?sortby=date

Why is it better though? This isn't just about hair, this is about beauty. You can describe how beautiful a female is but you can never fully picture, you will have to see her to know if you are fully attracted to her or not.

That way when she does undress for you after the marriage, you won't be underwhelmed and you will know what you are expecting... some people have stated there has been early divorces because the man wasn't satisfied with what he saw.

Edited by Sumerian

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3 hours ago, Sumerian said:

some people have stated there has been early divorces because the man wasn't satisfied with what he saw.

I think personal beauty comes before physical beauty. How shallow is it to divorce someone because they simply don't live up to your expectations? We keep talking about how the man is allowed to see the woman without hijab, but who said SHE will even like what she sees, or if she will even allow him to see her without hijab? This isn't a one way street. (I know you're going to say it is).

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7 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

I think personal beauty comes before physical beauty. How shallow is it to divorce someone because they simply don't live up to your expectations? We keep talking about how the man is allowed to see the woman without hijab, but who said SHE will even like what she sees, or if she will even allow him to see her without hijab? This isn't a one way street. (I know you're going to say it is).

I think if a guy is underwhelmed, even if he doesnt instantly divorce his wife, not being attracted is a serious issue for both couples and it may eventually cause divorce. Something like lack of attention can turn into something even bigger. This ruling heps avoid this scenario, which is actually common.

Well it's her choice at the end of the day whether she allows or not, we are just discussing the implications of this ruling, how it can be implemented, arguments against it etc..

Edited by Sumerian

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1 minute ago, 2Timeless said:

@Sumerian I agree that attraction is important, what I disagree with is the implication that it's a one way street and it's only important for men. 

I think there are numerous points to respond to this in light of this ruling.

1) The woman can already see the suitor, and everything about him, physically. This ruling puts the woman in house clothes, basically, in front of her potential husband. But she can already see him in house clothes anyway. She isn't getting undressed any more than him

2) That men pay more attention to beauty is a recognised fact, and men are more likely to call a marriage off because of this - as well.

3) That Islam has put more focus on female's beauty.

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6 hours ago, Carlzone said:

I believe we have a hadith that states that a woman's beauty is shown on her face, while a man's beauty is shown in his reasoning. 

Beauty is not men's strongest side unfortunately. God blessed women with beauty. Personally i think it's difficult to find ugly women. Some men are superficially beautiful but most aren't. Most men aren't very attractive, yet you see them with beautiful women.

Could you show us the hadith? My understanding of what you're explaining is that a woman's beauty is more on a surface level, and a man's beauty is deeper and more intellectual. 

I disagree that men are generally less beautiful than women. I think alot of men can be considered beautiful, and beauty is all subjective anyway, which would explain why I disagree. I think anyone can be attractive, if they clean themselves up in terms of grooming and clothing style etc. 

Also, if you look at our prophets and imams, all of them were known for their beauty (the most obvious example is prophet yusuf). 

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2 hours ago, Sumerian said:

I'm not the least surprised. Women like pretty boys, just like men like pretty girls. 

But i was really surprised when it became apparent to me that I could be attracted to an ugly guy if he had a really beautiful inside. (With time though. First time I saw him I was horrified.)

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