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In the Name of God بسم الله
Sumerian

Showing body parts after proposal

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10 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

current norms in muslim communities ('angel sent from heaven') are not the answer, and neither is 'Western Dating'. 

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that this was basically 'western dating', of course there are still rules and regulations that the couple must adhere to, but on a surface level, it does look like western dating. Neither man or woman are bound to eachother by a marriage contract, they can both see eachother without hijab, (not lowering their gaze I'm assuming) etc. My question was, if the woman didn't need to adhere to her physical hijab, do either man or woman need to adhere to the social hijab? Meaning, can they laugh, joke, and talk in a manner they wouldn't otherwise use talk to a non-mahram? 

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12 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that this was basically 'western dating', of course there are still rules and regulations that the couple must adhere to, but on a surface level, it does look like western dating. Neither man or woman are bound to eachother by a marriage contract, they can both see eachother without hijab, (not lowering their gaze I'm assuming) etc. My question was, if the woman didn't need to adhere to her physical hijab, do either man or woman need to adhere to the social hijab? Meaning, can they laugh, joke, and talk in a manner they wouldn't otherwise use talk to a non-mahram? 

The physical and social hijab are , as they say in English, 'two sides of the same coin'. In other words, if a women can take off her hijab in front of someone, then that means she can remove her social hijab, to the extent that her physical hijab is removed. The two go together, from what I know. She can laugh and joke, but not joking in a way that only married couples would. In other words, there are still some limits. The purpose is to give the potential spouses a real and authentic idea of what they would be dealing with on a day to day basis with the other spouse. 

The problem with the situation is not a religious one, but a cultural one, in that current cultural norms do not have a 'category' for this type of interaction. So most people in this situation will revert to either extreme (either full social hijab or no social hijab) depending on which one they are more comfortable with. The person would need to go thru sort of a 'training' process in order to learn how to act in this situation. That is why I think this should be a series of interactions done over weeks or months, not just one 'all or nothing' or a series of 'all or nothing' meetings done over a short period of time. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Men should check the foot size and the the power a girl can attain after marriage and look for right armour :)

On serious note; I do not know why people are objectifying women. the women family should ask the same question for family that we want to marry their boy with your family with same demands.

The men can see women face in hijab and not more than that until nikkah.

Question: What are the minimum requirements of Hijab (Islamic modest dress) for a Muslim woman?

Answer: Woman should conceal her body and hair from a man who is non-Mahram, and as an obligatory precaution, she should conceal herself even from a Na-baligh boy who is able to discern between good and evil, and could probably be sexually excited. But she can leave her face and hands upto wrists uncovered in the presence of Na-Mahram, as long as it does not lead him to casting a sinful, evil glance or her to doing something forbidden; for in both these cases, she must cover them.

 https://www.sistani.org/english/qa/search/26294/page/2/

 

 

 

Edited by Zulfiqar1472

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I know that a woman is allowed to show general parts of their body, such as the general body shape and hair, to a man who is intented to propose and/or marry a woman. It’s not a matter of undressing entirely in front of a man—more like a man is evaluating a woman’s physical appearance prior to marriage. There have been cases (in Sunni countries) where a man divorced his wife because he thought she was unattractive (once she took of her hijab in front of him). So (Shia) Islam has placed this as a means to ensure a man is attracted not just mentally and emotionally and deen-wise, but physically as well. 

That said, a woman doesn’t HAVE to show her hair and body if she doesn’t feel comfortable. 

EDIT: this is intented for serious proposals as far as I know — not just every suitor who shows interest. 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

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@Abu Hadi brother, she cannot laugh or joke. This ruling is just showing her body parts. It doesn't make it any more halal to laugh or joke, this is just a specific ruling in a specific area, no need for qiyaas.

7 hours ago, Carlzone said:

Yes, i know of this ruling. However, I would never ever show him anything more than my face and hands. That's only for my permanent husband to enjoy.

I don't want to marry any man who solely wants me for my looks. Actually, I find this a huge problem. How can a woman make sure that a man is not solely choosing her for her looks?

Even if you are 100% sure he will be your permanent husband? 

Well they talk to each other, the father of the female talks to the male, they ask the community about him, they evaluate his piety. If he is a very good mu'min he would marry you for more than your looks. But you can never know the internal intention of people lol

7 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

Would this not be the equivalent to western dating? Two people would have the intention of getting married, and according to what some have said, the guy can see the girl without hijab more than once. They get to talk and get to know eachother etc, the only difference is that they can't have any physical relations. Is this right? 

No, because he is only checking her out, and he can only see her once, once he is completely aware of her. If he isn't aware of her, he can look multiple times. This is as per Sistani.

I don't know why people are making it seem more than what it is, a simple "checking out". That's all.

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8 hours ago, Miss Wonderful said:

I agree with @Qa'im . But Sumerian am not sure about the other body parts.You would have to contact sistani or however you follow and get the specifics clarified. Make sure your bride is comfortable with the rulings as well. 

Thank you sister. This is from Sistani's book anyway. 

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5 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

No, because he is only checking her out, and he can only see her once, once he is completely aware of her. If he isn't aware of her, he can look multiple times. This is as per Sistani.

I don't know why people are making it seem more than what it is, a simple "checking out". That's all.

Well what does she do? Just sit like a stone and let him inspect her? Are they not allowed to talk? What @Abu hadi said makes sense. If the physical hijab is very limited, then why does the social hijab need to be kept in such a way? The two go hand in hand. If the standard for the physical hijab is lowered, then surely, the standard for the social hijab can be lowered too? Does sayyed sistani actually comment on this specifically?

Also, can the two be left alone with no chaperone?

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1 minute ago, 2Timeless said:

Well what does she do? Just sit like a stone and let him inspect her? Are they not allowed to talk? What @Abu hadi said makes sense. If the physical hijab is very limited, then why does the social hijab need to be kept in such a way? The two go hand in hand. If the standard for the physical hijab is lowered, then surely, the standard for the social hijab can be lowered too? Does sayyed sistani actually comment on this specifically?

Also, can the two be left alone with no chaperone?

All the other rules apply fully. This is just one ruling whose standard was lowered for a specifc reason. That's all. In Shi'a Fiqh, there is no room for qiyaas (analogical reasoning), which is what seems to be the problem here. Just because a ruling changed her that doesn't mean another ruling has to change.

Sayyed Al-Sistani says the other rules of hijab are observed fully.

They can be left alone if there is no fear of haram occuring according to Sayyed Al-Sistani. 

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1 minute ago, Sumerian said:

All the other rules apply fully. 

Salam for choosing a spouse focus on her modesty & dignity with current situation in medicine any type of physical problem has a cure.

 

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3 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam for choosing a spouse focus on her modesty & dignity with current situation in medicine any type of physical problem has a cure.

 

Also very expensive brother, you want to buy a house, pay for wedding, do everything for her, and also pay for surgery? Brother I'm not even 20 yet and your making me wanna not get married ever.. my pockets will be empty :hahaha::cry:

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1 hour ago, 2Timeless said:

The same applies to women.

Very true. So if we know what a man looks like prior to marriage, shouldn’t the same hold true for a man? 

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