Showing body parts after proposal

[Sumerian]

How many sisters know that a guy can ask to see the woman he wishes to marry's hair? 

And do you think this is an accepted norm in our community? I know some females who allowed their proposer to see their hair.

Is this a good thing from a sister's point of view?

__

The ruling:

386. It is permissible for a man to look at the attractive features of the woman he intends to marry. Similarly, it is permissible to talk to her before proposing. So, it is permissible to look at her face, hair, neck, hands and wrists, and legs and other parts of her body, provided that he does not so without sexual gratification.

https://www.al-islam.org/a-code-of-practice-for-muslims-in-the-west-ayatullah-sistani/marriage

[2Timeless]

6 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

And do you think this is an accepted norm in our community? I know some females who allowed their proposer to see their hair.

I haven't heard of this until recently, I don't know if it's really accepted within our community. I dont think i personally would do it. If I'm getting married, I'm getting married for his personality and character, I expect the same in return. You can tell if you find someone attractive by looking at their face and fully covered body, I don't think taking the hijab off and certain items of clothing off is very necessary. 

11 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

provided that he does not so without sexual gratification.

Is it possible for a man to look at a woman he intends to marry in a non sexual way (especially if she is less covered up)?

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

legs and other parts of her body,

Legs?? Really? 

Other parts of the body?  That's so vague. 

Doesn't sound right to me. This should be confirmed from his office.

[Sumerian]

3 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

I haven't heard of this until recently, I don't know if it's really accepted within our community. I dont think i personally would do it. If I'm getting married, I'm getting married for his personality and character, I expect the same in return. You can tell if you find someone attractive by looking at their face and fully covered body, I don't think taking the hijab off and certain items of clothing off is very necessary. 

Personality, character and PHYSICAL attraction. Sister, males are very visual, a woman with a hijab is hiding her beauty, or meant to be - as per the Qur'an - therefore for many guys this is very important. Also it may expose any defects (btw facial defects are haram to conceal from husband as it is deception).

9 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

Is it possible for a man to look at a woman he intends to marry in a non sexual way (especially if she is less covered up)?

It is, if he is a mutaqqi, and you shouldn't be marrying anyone but a mutaqqi.

3 minutes ago, starlight said:

Legs?? Really? 

Other parts of the body?  That's so vague. 

Doesn't sound right to me. This should be confirmed from his office.

This is from an official book of his, which is "Code of Practice for Muslims in the West", it is in the risala too, it is a known fatwa. Nothing new here lol.

It is here too on his website;

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/46/2062/

Here as well;

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/49/2414/

Known ruling my sister, nothing strange

[Khadim uz Zahra]

11 minutes ago, starlight said:

Legs?? Really? 

Other parts of the body?  That's so vague. 

Doesn't sound right to me. This should be confirmed from his office.

It is a very well known ruling regarding marriage. And I believe it's not just him, but it's a ruling shared by other jurists as well. The devil is, of course, in the details: how many people would actually do so without lust/sexual gratification? Thus, it's allowed in principle, but haram practically speaking.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Khadim uz Zahra

[2Timeless]

3 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Also it may expose any defects (btw facial defects are haram to conceal from husband as it is deception).

Can a man not have any defects that he's hiding from the woman? Is it permissible for a woman to request to see the man's other body parts? 

[Sumerian]

Just now, 2Timeless said:

Can a man not have any defects that he's hiding from the woman? Is it permissible for a woman to request to see the man's other body parts? 

this is a one way street sister... women can't request that

[2Timeless]

5 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

this is a one way street sister... women can't request that

Why not? What if the man has a defect that he knows the woman may not appreciate (for whatever reason). He's deceiving her into marrying him and trapping her into the marriage.

[Sumerian]

1 minute ago, 2Timeless said:

Why not? What if the man has a defect that he knows the woman may not appreciate (for whatever reason). He's deceiving her into marrying him and trapping her into the marriage.

I'm pretty sure that's a sin on his part but that's no excuse to see his body...

[2Timeless]

Just now, Sumerian said:

I'm pretty sure that's a sin on his part but that's no excuse to see his body...

But it's halal for him to go to the beach, quite indecently dressed, and allow other women to see him. But the woman who intends to marry him doesn't have the same right?

[Sumerian]

5 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

But it's halal for him to go to the beach, quite indecently dressed, and allow other women to see him. But the woman who intends to marry him doesn't have the same right?

He isn't allowed to go to a mixed beach. If you mean he can show his body, yes.. but those women shouldn't look at him...

The beauty of a female is much more important than that of a male. Sayyed Al-Sistani recommends, as far as precaution, based on an authentic hadith of the Prophet (saww), that a woman does not reject a man whom she is pleased with his akhlaq and religion, so that corruption does not occur.

But a man is told by the jurists, again based on hadith, to pay attention to physical beauty of the female he intends to marry. 

Therefore beauty for females is more important based on this understanding than beauty for males.

[2Timeless]

5 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Therefore beauty for females is more important based on this understanding than beauty for males.

It may be more important but it's quite unfair to suggest that a woman shouldn't care about her husband-to-be's beauty. Women are also human, and you can't expect a woman to marry someone she doesn't find good-looking, but expect the opposite of a man. I'm sure it's not haram for a woman to reject a suitor because she doesn't find him good-looking. 

And are you saying that a woman can be tricked into a marriage, and after it happens, she has to live with it?

[Sumerian]

1 minute ago, 2Timeless said:

It may be more important but it's quite unfair to suggest that a woman shouldn't care about her husband-to-be's beauty. Women are also human, and you can't expect a woman to marry someone she doesn't find good-looking, but expect the opposite of a man. I'm sure it's not haram for a woman to reject a suitor because she doesn't find him good-looking. 

Not haram, but not recommended, but certainly it is not proven.

1 minute ago, 2Timeless said:

And are you saying that a woman can be tricked into a marriage, and after it happens, she has to live with it?

This is a slippery slope. A man may also be tricked. She may have a defect in a private zone. There is no plausible solution to this..

[2Timeless]

2 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

This is a slippery slope. A man may also be tricked. She may have a defect in a private zone. There is no plausible solution to this..

But that would be a good enough reason for him to divorce her right? But if the woman was in the same situation, she wouldn't be allowed to get a divorce on that same basis? 

[Sumerian]

2 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

But that would be a good enough reason for him to divorce her right? But if the woman was in the same situation, she wouldn't be allowed to get a divorce on that same basis? 

No, unless it causes his genital organs to not work or if he doesn't have those organs at all, in those cases a woman can call the marriage off.

[Sumerian]

Would like to hear the input from sisters @notme @Laayla @Islandsandmirrors @Carlzone @ireallywannaknow @eloquence @habib e najjaar @Hameedeh @Pearl178 @Miss Wonderful and any other sister on this issue. Thank you akhawati.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Sumerian

[notme]

3 hours ago, Sumerian said:

How many sisters know that a guy can ask to see the woman he wishes to marry's hair? 

And do you think this is an accepted norm in our community? I know some females who allowed their proposer to see their hair.

Is this a good thing from a sister's point of view?

I knew of this ruling years ago, but it just seems so awkward to me. How is it done? The man just says "I'd like to marry you, so could you please undress down to house clothing for inspection?" I can't even imagine how it would be done in real life. 

[Sumerian]

2 hours ago, notme said:

I knew of this ruling years ago, but it just seems so awkward to me. How is it done? The man just says "I'd like to marry you, so could you please undress down to house clothing for inspection?" I can't even imagine how it would be done in real life. 

A family member of mine got it done. He asked her father, and her father let him.

[Ashvazdanghe]

in traditional marriage the conservative family in old days of Iran a group of women from husband side were going with woman that proposed to marriage to public bath to watch her private parts that is abandoned now.

[Abu Hadi]

2 hours ago, notme said:

I knew of this ruling years ago, but it just seems so awkward to me. How is it done? The man just says "I'd like to marry you, so could you please undress down to house clothing for inspection?" I can't even imagine how it would be done in real life. 

The man is allowed to look at the parts of the women that are seen by mahram if he is serious in his proposal for marriage. This means that he has taken steps before this point to show that he is serious. The 'serious' part is cultural, as each culture has 'pre marriage' steps that are taken to show seriousness. So if he has met the threshold of 'serious', he is allowed to see her in this way, i.e. allowed to see her hair, and body apart from her aura (those areas which mahram are not allowed to see). He is not allowed to take pictures (obviously) or describe her to non mahram. It is done on an 'honor' system and usually the potential groom has to be known to the family, i.e. not a stranger, in order for them to allow this. 

How it is done is that he shows up at the family home, and only mahram are there and him. Noone else is invited. The lady sits with him and talk in her cloths that she would wear in front of her family. Sometimes, she would wear makeup, done hair, 'dressed up' in other words. This is halal, according to all marjaa' that I know of, but not widely practiced. 

BTW, this is done in Lebanon, in some families.

[Sumerian]

@Abu Hadi brother I don't think make up is allowed. Just showing the body parts and that's it. 

[Abu Hadi]

Just now, Sumerian said:

@Abu Hadi brother I don't think make up is allowed. Just showing the body parts and that's it. 

From what I know, what is allowed for mahram is allowed in this situation. 

[Qa'im]

It's normal in my culture for the man to see the lady without her hijab once or twice sometime in the proposal/engagement process.

[Sumerian]

29 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

From what I know, what is allowed for mahram is allowed in this situation. 

I doubt that, then that means he can see her chest as well, as it is not wajib for a woman to hide her chest from her maharim, as weird as it may sound to people. 

Yes, that includes her male maharim other than her husband. Lol. 

مسألة 13: يجوز للرجل أن ينظر إلى جسد محارمه - ما عدا العورة - من دون تلذّذ شهويّ ولا ريبة، وكذا يجوز لهنّ النظر إلى ما عدا العورة من جسده بلا تلذّذ شهويّ ولا ريبة، والمراد بالمحارم من يحرم عليه نكاحهنّ أبداً من جهة النسب أو الرضاع أو المصاهرة دون غيرها كالزناء واللواط واللعان. 

https://www.sistani.org/arabic/book/16/859/

Edited September 30, 2018 by Sumerian

[Miss Wonderful]

I agree with @Qa'im . But Sumerian am not sure about the other body parts.You would have to contact sistani or however you follow and get the specifics clarified. Make sure your bride is comfortable with the rulings as well. 

[2Timeless]

Would this not be the equivalent to western dating? Two people would have the intention of getting married, and according to what some have said, the guy can see the girl without hijab more than once. They get to talk and get to know eachother etc, the only difference is that they can't have any physical relations. Is this right? 

It doesn't make sense to me that two people can't joke with eachother when their intention is marriage, but then the man can see the woman without hijab and talk to her. If she lets go of her physical hijab, can she let go of the social hijab (by joking and laughing  with the other gender etc)?

Edited September 30, 2018 by 2Timeless

[Carlzone]

3 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Would like to hear the input from sisters @notme @Laayla @Islandsandmirrors @Carlzone @ireallywannaknow @eloquence @habib e najjaar @Hameedeh @Pearl178 @Miss Wonderful and any other sister on this issue. Thank you akhawati.

Yes, i know of this ruling. However, I would never ever show him anything more than my face and hands. That's only for my permanent husband to enjoy.

I don't want to marry any man who solely wants me for my looks. Actually, I find this a huge problem. How can a woman make sure that a man is not solely choosing her for her looks?

[notme]

4 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

Can a man not have any defects that he's hiding from the woman? Is it permissible for a woman to request to see the man's other body parts? 

Men have a lower clothing requirement anyway. She can already see him in the clothing he would wear in the house with his mehrams. 

[Abu Hadi]

The comparison to 'Western Dating' is not exactly correct because in 'Western Dating' there is no 'Sharia', i.e. guidelines in the process that are derived from Quran and authentic hadith. In Western Dating, the only guidelines are cultural guidelines, which change, as it seems, from day to day, family to family, and situation to situation. So for a person who is unfortunate enough to be in the Western Dating scene, it is difficult just to figure out what the guidelines are. There goes the rant, having said that...

Both have the same purpose, which is for the potential spouses to get to know each other enough so that they 'know what they are getting into' with the other spouse. Every human being is a package of good and bad qualities, strengths and weaknesses. Every person has preferences, and bad points that they can tolerate, and bad points that they can't tolerate, weaknesses that they can live with and weaknesses that they can't live with. So it is critical for the potential spouses to know what 'package' of these they are getting so they can make a fully informed decision and a conscious choice based on good and complete (as much as possible) information. It is critical to have the information, but also critical that we do not go outside the halal in the process of trying to get that information. In Islam, the ends never justify the means, and it is the means that become the end. 

I think the problem in many places in the muslim world, is that if the family wants the marriage to take place, they present the potential spouse as an 'angel sent from heaven' and make a great attempt to hide any potential flaws or weaknesses, to the point of doing fraud and deception in many cases. This is, of course, wrong and against Islam, and in some cases could invalidate the marriage (as was discussed in the thread Wajib Kafiyat in Marriage). The solution for this is to create an environment where the spouses get to know each other but with specific limits and guidelines as per Quran and authentic hadith, so that they spouses can make their own decision based on first hand information and do not need to solely depend on others, most of whom have a different agenda.  The current norms in muslim communities ('angel sent from heaven') are not the answer, and neither is 'Western Dating'. 

[Fakeha]

If any of the defects appear?? The marriage is off??(so convenient)

[2Timeless]

10 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

current norms in muslim communities ('angel sent from heaven') are not the answer, and neither is 'Western Dating'. 

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that this was basically 'western dating', of course there are still rules and regulations that the couple must adhere to, but on a surface level, it does look like western dating. Neither man or woman are bound to eachother by a marriage contract, they can both see eachother without hijab, (not lowering their gaze I'm assuming) etc. My question was, if the woman didn't need to adhere to her physical hijab, do either man or woman need to adhere to the social hijab? Meaning, can they laugh, joke, and talk in a manner they wouldn't otherwise use talk to a non-mahram? 

[Abu Hadi]

12 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that this was basically 'western dating', of course there are still rules and regulations that the couple must adhere to, but on a surface level, it does look like western dating. Neither man or woman are bound to eachother by a marriage contract, they can both see eachother without hijab, (not lowering their gaze I'm assuming) etc. My question was, if the woman didn't need to adhere to her physical hijab, do either man or woman need to adhere to the social hijab? Meaning, can they laugh, joke, and talk in a manner they wouldn't otherwise use talk to a non-mahram? 

The physical and social hijab are , as they say in English, 'two sides of the same coin'. In other words, if a women can take off her hijab in front of someone, then that means she can remove her social hijab, to the extent that her physical hijab is removed. The two go together, from what I know. She can laugh and joke, but not joking in a way that only married couples would. In other words, there are still some limits. The purpose is to give the potential spouses a real and authentic idea of what they would be dealing with on a day to day basis with the other spouse. 

The problem with the situation is not a religious one, but a cultural one, in that current cultural norms do not have a 'category' for this type of interaction. So most people in this situation will revert to either extreme (either full social hijab or no social hijab) depending on which one they are more comfortable with. The person would need to go thru sort of a 'training' process in order to learn how to act in this situation. That is why I think this should be a series of interactions done over weeks or months, not just one 'all or nothing' or a series of 'all or nothing' meetings done over a short period of time. 

Edited September 30, 2018 by Abu Hadi

[Zulfiqar1472]

Men should check the foot size and the the power a girl can attain after marriage and look for right armour

On serious note; I do not know why people are objectifying women. the women family should ask the same question for family that we want to marry their boy with your family with same demands.

The men can see women face in hijab and not more than that until nikkah.

Question: What are the minimum requirements of Hijab (Islamic modest dress) for a Muslim woman?

Answer: Woman should conceal her body and hair from a man who is non-Mahram, and as an obligatory precaution, she should conceal herself even from a Na-baligh boy who is able to discern between good and evil, and could probably be sexually excited. But she can leave her face and hands upto wrists uncovered in the presence of Na-Mahram, as long as it does not lead him to casting a sinful, evil glance or her to doing something forbidden; for in both these cases, she must cover them.

 https://www.sistani.org/english/qa/search/26294/page/2/

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2018 by Zulfiqar1472

[Islandsandmirrors]

I know that a woman is allowed to show general parts of their body, such as the general body shape and hair, to a man who is intented to propose and/or marry a woman. It’s not a matter of undressing entirely in front of a man—more like a man is evaluating a woman’s physical appearance prior to marriage. There have been cases (in Sunni countries) where a man divorced his wife because he thought she was unattractive (once she took of her hijab in front of him). So (Shia) Islam has placed this as a means to ensure a man is attracted not just mentally and emotionally and deen-wise, but physically as well. 

That said, a woman doesn’t HAVE to show her hair and body if she doesn’t feel comfortable. 

EDIT: this is intented for serious proposals as far as I know — not just every suitor who shows interest. 

Edited September 30, 2018 by Islandsandmirrors

[Sumerian]

@Abu Hadi brother, she cannot laugh or joke. This ruling is just showing her body parts. It doesn't make it any more halal to laugh or joke, this is just a specific ruling in a specific area, no need for qiyaas.

7 hours ago, Carlzone said:

Yes, i know of this ruling. However, I would never ever show him anything more than my face and hands. That's only for my permanent husband to enjoy.

I don't want to marry any man who solely wants me for my looks. Actually, I find this a huge problem. How can a woman make sure that a man is not solely choosing her for her looks?

Even if you are 100% sure he will be your permanent husband? 

Well they talk to each other, the father of the female talks to the male, they ask the community about him, they evaluate his piety. If he is a very good mu'min he would marry you for more than your looks. But you can never know the internal intention of people lol

7 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

Would this not be the equivalent to western dating? Two people would have the intention of getting married, and according to what some have said, the guy can see the girl without hijab more than once. They get to talk and get to know eachother etc, the only difference is that they can't have any physical relations. Is this right? 

No, because he is only checking her out, and he can only see her once, once he is completely aware of her. If he isn't aware of her, he can look multiple times. This is as per Sistani.

I don't know why people are making it seem more than what it is, a simple "checking out". That's all.