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In the Name of God بسم الله
Reza

The Nature of Atheistic Doubt

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Point is a Physical, chemical, biological Dependent entity living in a Dependent System needs to make an argument for this  (Rationally, logically(Scientifically) Proven Fact, before it can proceed to the next level. 

By Definition Dependent Status of you and your surrounding imply what? 

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If people can't even acknowledge the basic rational/logical/(Scientific) realities, of their been a dependent entity and living in a dependent system. It means hiding the Truth. 

Only reason for the implied doubt must be. 

*****

Page 2 of this Thread. 

أَرَأَيْتَ مَنِ اتَّخَذَ إِلَٰهَهُ هَوَاهُ أَفَأَنْتَ تَكُونُ عَلَيْهِ وَكِيلًا {43}

[Shakir 25:43] Have you seen him who takes his low desires for his god? Will you then be a protector over him?
[Pickthal 25:43] Hast thou seen him who chooseth for his god his own lust? Wouldst thou then be guardian over him?
[Yusufali 25:43] Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own passion (or impulse)? Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him?

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235059369-the-nature-of-atheistic-doubt/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-3170990

 

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On 9/25/2018 at 8:00 AM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

There is absolutely no doubt about the existence of Allah. 

“I found myself subject to one of two options: either I created myself or something other than myself created me. If I created myself, I am also subject to one of two options: either I created my self while my self already existed – but then I would not need to create it since it already existed – or I created my self while I was nonexistent, but you already know that the nonexistent cannot bring about anything. Therefore, the third meaning is proven – that I have a Creator, Who is Lord of the Worlds.”

Imam Sadiq (as)

Can I love this a billion times? Labayk ya Imam Jaffar e Sadiq(as)!!!

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24 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

Can I love this a billion times? Labayk ya Imam Jaffar e Sadiq(as)!!!

MashAllah I agree with you a billion times. 

But given that the topic is the nature of atheistic doubt, would a critic not question if this same logic should then apply to the Creator too? If we did apply this same logic to the Creator (Astaghfirullah) then when would this cycle end? I'm just being the devil's advocate here because I know that this is what an atheist would say. 

Ultimately I think that either you believe or you don't. Something undefinable has to register in an intrinsic manner. 

Edited by Aflower

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18 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

At "The Independent Entity". 

I agree with you 100% because of my unwavering belief and Imaan. Please try to understand that Shukar Allah you and I are 'choosing' to believe this in the absence of any tangible hard evidence. Not everyone is as blessed as us to be gifted with unyielding faith.

Whether we choose to believe or not, of course does not change the fact that there is a Creator called Allah. 

But some people 'choose' not to believe this, or are simply unable to believe this for some inexplicable reason (even though we are all looking at the same material and literature). 

Edited by Aflower

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The only thing that does, can and ever will give Atheism any edge in any argument is the question of "where's your proof?"

Everything else about the atheist worldview is based of it's own (depending on the individual, as Buddhists for instance tend to be atheists) epistemological dogma based on the nature of the physical world (such as the materialist world view, which considers the physical to be all there is - which is not fact, only perception). 

Then, everything else comes down to philosophical argument and scientific disagreement (remembering that there is no universally agreed scientific hypothesis of the nature of existence and reality - only theories based on observed conditions within specific scientific fields and speculations based off logical conclusions on prior said epistemological assumptions of said fields, which is where more abstract science comes in)

 

Plus, atheists these days have a tendency to be lazy, when they should be reading more Nietzsche and Wittgenstein rather than watching Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris convey the same age old arrogant superiority without any valuable philosophical contributions. 

Edited by HakimPtsid

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22 minutes ago, Aflower said:

@HakimPtsid If I am not mistaken you are a revert? What made the penny drop for you? 

Yep. 

Well, I grew up in a Christian family but was an atheist in throughout most of my teenage years (I hated religion at that time) - then I became interested in mysticism and occultism (as well as philosophy) around age 18/19. This caused me to start exploring religion from a much deeper and nuanced way - leading to Hinduism, Christian mysticism, Taoism and so on. 

Hinduism really broke the seal between the physical and non-physical for me, plus practicing many yogic exercised related to transcendent states of consciousness really opened my mind to the way we perceive things but most of all, what "God" is - the realization of God (Surah 112.) My interest in Islam really started with Sufism (and it's relation to certain types of Occultism). 

Reading the Quran after that was profound for me (even more than the Upanishads), something about it on a very deeply spiritual level clicked for me (even though I'd read it before in the past). Then I started learning more about Islam way more in depth, with a growing disinterest in Sunni Islam and fascination with Shia sects like the Ismailis.

 

Basically, I've already been through Atheistic (even Satanist and Nihilist) thought processes before. Ontology is a necessary study, I believe. With Atheism, their hold on the "where's your proof" is by no means a superior position. When you look into counter-religions like Discordianism for instance, you'll see that there is a monopoly on relativism among many as a fundamental tenant on truth, as a consequence of modernism. You also find that within argumentative discourse between atheists and religious people that every position one can hold in relation to existence, has to come from the root of an epistemological dogma. Ours (as Muslims) is that there is one God (Allah), that the Quran is the word of God and that it was revealed to Muhammad. - The Atheist's (common) position is that there isn't any god in any form and that truth is only measured by what is physically or logically** (from their own epistemological position, remember) reasonable. 

 

 

** (Remembering that logic is not synonymous with truth either, it is a process of arguments that is inherently supposed to be non-contradictory.)

Edited by HakimPtsid

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1 hour ago, Aflower said:

MashAllah I agree with you a billion times. 

But given that the topic is the nature of atheistic doubt, would a critic not question if this same logic should then apply to the Creator too? If we did apply this same logic to the Creator (Astaghfirullah) then when would this cycle end? I'm just being the devil's advocate here because I know that this is what an atheist would say. 

Ultimately I think that either you believe or you don't. Something undefinable has to register in an intrinsic manner. 

It’s necessary to research all religions then. Because paradoxes are something all humans are susceptible too, in other words its equally as a disease as let’s say cancer. It ravaged and is a cycle that can only be fixed with ‘faith’. Why do you think Allah decided on a ‘religion’ In the first place? He could have easily sent down all the answers to everything and shown himself to us no? But instead he created the panjatan paak and the all of creation. And in turn those five spread knowledge and the essence of faith to all the lower creations of which they are masters over. The world doesn’t revolve around us...it revolves around them. It’s the very existence of Muhammed ahl Muhammed that god truly becomes separate from creation, that Allah becomes the all seeing, the all powerful, the great! Without them we wouldn’t know Allah is one! Because we don’t know what god is! Only they truly know!

so with that question you posed-without the panjataan and the central idea of oneness of Allah and the creator and the creation-But then the term Allah is Great, Allah is omnipotent would be questioned with somebody must have created Allah right? The question you asked would work only if there was no religion or the necessary ingredient ‘faith’. It’s what separates  the believers vs the nonbelievers. I mean why is this idea central to all creation? In fact look at Satan, he was a devout worshipper and he looked liked he was the best of believers and time comes and destroys the ‘home’ He created, he was the biggest Unbeliever of all! The  worst in God’s eyes are the unbelievers! That’s why its necessary to not fall into the trap in the first place, because that exactly it! Is just a paradoxical trap with no end, with only questions being there and no answers! Because humans MUST recognize how worthless and unworthy they are to even ask these questions in the first place, god doesn’t have to answer to humans and humans don’t deserve answers. I mean why would you ask such questions that just pander to the ignorant and stupid side of yourself? There is such a thing as asking smart and practical questions, but all these folks waste their time with questions they don’t even understand in the first place and don’t even have an answer to either. 

thats why arrogance is so dangerous and that’s why Allah warns us of those things. 

We must realize all creation are ‘born’ with faith, but remember faith is something you can lose and something you can never gain back. That’s why there is a hell in the first place 

Edited by Ralvi

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4 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

It’s necessary to research all religions then. Because paradoxes are something all humans are susceptible too, in other words its equally as a disease as let’s say cancer. It ravaged and is a cycle that can only be fixed with ‘faith’. Why do you think Allah decided on a ‘religion’ In the first place? He could have easily sent down all the answers to everything and shown himself to us no? But instead he created the panjatan papal and the all of creation. And in turn those five spread knowledge and the essence of faith to all the lower creations of which they are masters over. It’s the very existence of Muhammed ahl Muhammed that god truly becomes separate from creation, that Allah becomes the all seeing, the all powerful, the great! Without them we wouldn’t know Allah is one! Because we don’t know what god is! Only they truly know!

so with that question you posed-without the panjataan and the central idea of oneness of Allah and the creator and the creation-But then the term Allah is Great, Allah is omnipotent would be questioned with somebody must have created Allah right? The question you asked would work only if there was no religion or the necessary ingredient ‘faith’. It’s what separates  the believers vs the nonbelievers. I mean why is this idea central to all creation? In fact look at Satan, he was a devout worshipper and he looked liked he was the best of believers and time comes and destroys the ‘home’ He created, he was the biggest Unbeliever of all! The  worst in God’s eyes are the unbelievers! That’s why its necessary to not fall into the trap in the first place, because that exactly it! Is just a paradoxical trap with no end, with only questions being there and no answers! Because humans MUST recognize how worthless and unworthy they are to even ask these questions in the first place, god doesn’t have to answer to humans and humans don’t deserve answers. I mean why would you ask such questions that just pander to the ignorant and stupid side of you? There is such a thing as asking smart and practical questions, but all these folks waste their time with questions they don’t even understand in the first place and don’t even have an answer to either. 

thats why arrogance is so dangerous and that’s why Allah warns us of those things. 

We must realize all creation are ‘born’ with faith, but remember faith is something you can lose and something you can never gain back. That’s why there is a hell in the first place 

You have nailed it!

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Quote

 

The only thing that does, can and ever will give Atheism any edge in any argument is the question of "where's your proof?"

"Where is the proof" mentality is form the fallacy that Science has all the answers to ALL things. 

There are few things in our Domain that can be measured in a laboratory setting. So, their highschool mentality sticks with them. 

There are Physical things we ca see with our physical eyes. Like the Sun, but it can't be tested and we only understand it in a limited way through its light.

There are Non Physical realities we can perceive  through our non physical eyes in a limited way (intellect/heart/ whatever you call it). (limited vision, like the Sun)

This proof argument is childish. Has no merits. There are many things in our Domain that can't be experimented upon, nor we understand their reality or systems and workings completely ( Human body). Anything out of our Domain can't be experimented upon.(Illogical). 

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8 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Second: If you say 'Something is a projection of a human mind". Your statement is also a product of a human mind. (your Mind)

Now what? 

Leave it be, folks like them don’t want an answer they just bring up topics like this and enjoy the infighting, they enjoy stirring the pot and letting it burn. It’s an old tactic, many judgmental atheists use these tactics. 

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3 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

"Where is the proof" mentality is form the fallacy that Science has all the answers to ALL things. 

There are few things in our Domain that can be measured in a laboratory setting. So, their highschool mentality sticks with them. 

There are Physical things we ca see with our physical eyes. Like the Sun, but it can't be tested and we only understand it in a limited way through its light.

There are Non Physical realities we can perceive  through our non physical eyes in a limited way (intellect/heart/ whatever you call it). (limited vision, like the Sun)

This proof argument is childish. Has no merits. There are many things in our Domain that can't be experimented upon, nor we understand their reality or systems and workings completely ( Human body). Anything out of our Domain can't be experimented upon.(Illogical). 

Yes and In fact they know this, they know but they don’t believe. Behold Allahs magnanimity!! He already told us! Leave him, he doesn’t seem sincere. People(like this atheist) like these spin everything around and enjoy the show. It’s an old and abused tactic

Edited by Ralvi

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1 minute ago, S.M.H.A. said:

I am not really concerned with the ones who reject/hide the Truth. 

Good! I also agree, they are not worth the time. Let’s leave people like this atheist and those who entertain their ideas and musings

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أَمَّن يَمْشِي سَوِيًّا عَلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ

Is he who walks prone on his face, more rightly guided or he who walks upright on the Straight Path?

Quran 67:22

This verse is just......... subhanallah.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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2 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

Leave it be, folks like them don’t want an answer they just bring up topics like this and enjoy the infighting, they enjoy stirring the pot and letting it burn. It’s an old tactic, many judgmental atheists use these tactics. 

Right on money!

Lamentably, some fellow beings cannot comprehend it.

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5 hours ago, Aflower said:

But given that the topic is the nature of atheistic doubt, would a critic not question if this same logic should then apply to the Creator too? If we did apply this same logic to the Creator (Astaghfirullah) then when would this cycle end? I'm just being the devil's advocate here because I know that this is what an atheist would say. 

 

If the same logic applies to the creator, then your existence would no longer be reality due to the endless nature of that premise.

There must be a start point in order to bring about the thoughts you're having at this very second, and that start point is an uncreated being.

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