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In the Name of God بسم الله
Reza

The Nature of Atheistic Doubt

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1 minute ago, Klanky said:

Does this Allah of yours have the mind of a petty ignorant small minded human who would let a person (even an ignorant naked hairy guy) go to hell for not knowing or understanding things he has never even heard of or understood?

You never heard about God before?

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1 minute ago, IbnSina said:

You never heard about God before?

The other guy has not heard of God - this one:

6 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

I wish just as you were born naked with no sense should have been left as it is without any parents taking care concept or manners or way of living. Then when you would have grown up and lived all your life in pure ignorance with big hair on your body everywhere eating whatever whenever roaming naked here and there and then would have died without even having a sense that you could talk or make a language.

And after your death you would have found out that there is Allah and this was not how you were supposed to live those many years in jahalah and now your next destination is hell then only you may have realised and regretted but no the merciful Allah did not leave you astray and gave you what you needed in this world to survive and now you question him only

 

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2 minutes ago, Klanky said:

Does this Allah of yours have the mind of a petty ignorant small minded human who would let a person (even an ignorant naked hairy guy) go to hell for not knowing or understanding things he has never even heard of or understood?

That's why my Allah sent down prophets(saww) to guide mankind or else you would be roaming naked with big hair under you arms on street snatching from people and eating and living life to its fully worst state, instead of being among the thankful you doubt him.

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Just now, Klanky said:

The other guy has not heard of God - this one:

 

To my understanding, Islamically speaking, if for example a tribe lived in some desolate forest where they were completely isolated from the rest of humanity then they would be judged on the basis of the information they could have taken part of throughout their life.

Although we believe that that there has been messengers to all people in all corners of the worlds, its just that Prophet Muhammad(S) was the last of them.

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1 minute ago, Klanky said:

The other guy has not heard of God - this one:

 

Lol yes sure I have never heard of such concept of 'God' before that exists in your tiny lil mind.

Do you believe in marriages or as per you people can start living together and have kids together without seeking permission from their parents and stuff?

Please answer this lol

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4 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

To my understanding, Islamically speaking, if for example a tribe lived in some desolate forest where they were completely isolated from the rest of humanity then they would be judged on the basis of the information they could have taken part of throughout their life.

Although we believe that that there has been messengers to all people in all corners of the worlds, its just that Prophet Muhammad(S) was the last of them.

Still though, is belief - or the lack of it - really something deserving of a place like hell? Even if I believed in God I couldn't believe in a creator that created all we know and don't know only to behave so harshly and vindictively with someone who didn't believe. 

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4 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Lol yes sure I have never heard of such concept of 'God' before that exists in your tiny lil mind.

Do you believe in marriages or as per you people can start living together and have kids together without seeking permission from their parents and stuff?

Please answer this lol

Have manners you, Mr Absolute Ignorance

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1 minute ago, IbnSina said:

To my understanding, Islamically speaking, if for example a tribe lived in some desolate forest where they were completely isolated from the rest of humanity then they would be judged on the basis of the information they could have taken part of throughout their life.

Although we believe that that there has been messengers to all people in all corners of the worlds, its just that Prophet Muhammad(S) was the last of them.

As for those who may say to Allah on the day of judgement,

O Allah your message did not reach us, Allah will command all of them to GO TO HELL, some will start walking and some will not start walking rathey they will question O Allah why us? We did not know.

At that point those who have started walking to hell Allah will call them back and say that you acted on my command without any 'ifs' and 'buts' so enter paradise

And to those who even after knowing there is Allah did not follow his command on the day of judgement, Allah will say to them You did not follow me even when you truly found out just now that I am Allah so how would you have obeyed me while you were on earth therefore your place is HELL.

A big shut up call now this for mere mind atheists lol.

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11 minutes ago, Klanky said:

Please don't go to any trouble trying to convince me that there is God, my position on such entities is that I don't care if they exist or not because this kind of existence is a concept that has literally no meaning for me except as a projection of the human mind. But you are right, I have no particularly hostility or aversion to God itself if it does exist, whatever it is. I do have a strong aversion to certain human behavior which is often motivated and/or amplified by religion (and by money, sex, nationalism and various other things).   As for why I am here wasting my time, to be honest at this stage it has become a habit.

Firstly, I made no attempt whatsoever to convince you that there is a God and I am still not attempting to do so. 

I know that the very last thing you want to read is more airy-fairy abstract concepts, but hey, I will exercise my right to freedom of speech. :grin:  I have grappled with various issues myself. I have come to realise that I am unlikely to ever see a real life miracle to unequivocally prove the existence of God. I understand that you probably feel that you will not believe in God unless you see physical and undisputable evidence or proof of the existence of a deity.  For me, belief in God is like the feeling of pure selfless love. You can never prove it to anyone and there is no tangible evidence that can be displayed as such.  Either you feel love or you don't. Either you have faith or you don't. It can't be forced.

Also, it's good to know that you have at least one good habit. :D That was a joke BTW... albeit a bad one. 

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2 minutes ago, Klanky said:

Still though, is belief - or the lack of it - really something deserving of a place like hell? Even if I believed in God I couldn't believe in a creator that created all we know and don't know only to behave so harshly and vindictively with someone who didn't believe. 

It depends I guess, in the era of information that we live in, I believe (not spiritually talking) that belief or the lack of belief is an intellectual decision based on the information we have taken part of and reflected on or based on information we have neglected and thus not reflected on.

Whatever we believe in, it has been a string of choices regarding the estimation of the value of the information coming our way. In the end, rationally speaking, whether we believe or not believe, it will be the result of our conscious actions or lack of actions throughout our life time.

Should we then not be held accountable for our actions?

If I was too lazy to research, or too proud to research or felt indifferent regarding the information, who am I to blame then if the information was shown to important later on?

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2 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

It depends I guess, in the era of information that we live in, I believe (not spiritually talking) that belief or the lack of belief is an intellectual decision based on the information we have taken part of and reflected on or based on information we have neglected and thus not reflected on.

Whatever we believe in, it has been a string of choices regarding the estimation of the value of the information coming our way. In the end, rationally speaking, whether we believe or not believe, it will be the result of our conscious actions or lack of actions throughout our life time.

Should we then not be held accountable for our actions?

If I was too lazy to research, or too proud to research or felt indifferent regarding the information, who am I to blame then if the information was shown to important later on?

Your point there probably applies to all sorts of scenarios in life - things we didn't do because they didn't seem important at the time and we come to regret it. Often there is no way to know if you've made the right choice. Belief in God may be the result of your upbringing or of various choices you make along the way but I don't think that "decision" is an accurate word for it. The effect of cumulative twists and turns in a life time is not a decision.  

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6 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

How did this person prove this to you.

Well he didn't prove it me. He doesn't need to and isn't obligated to either. But every time a family member or a maulana quotes a book, saying, or Hadith, he knows the reference points and the books. He in fact goes on to discuss it in much further detail demonstrating his understanding of the matter. Of course no one can claim to have read every book but he appears to have read as many, if not more books than our maulanas that he has engaged in conversations with. 

Edited by Aflower

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6 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Questions Like what?

Well the list could go on and on...

Namely, most if not all Prophets witnessed a physical sign from God; or witnessed a miracle or were communicated to directly by Angels. He says show me a sign or a miracle and I will believe too.

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1 hour ago, Klanky said:

Does this Allah of yours have the mind of a petty ignorant small minded human who would let a person (even an ignorant naked hairy guy) go to hell for not knowing or understanding things he has never even heard of or understood?

Dear @Klanky, @Asghar Ali Karbalai has evidently given a very bad example. But I kindly request you to not refer to Allah in such a manner. You are hurting the sentiments of many SCs by doing so. Mine included. By all means critique the nature of the example stated but do not disrespect our God.  

Obviously this is a two way street brothers and sisters. We need to respect that some people do not believe yet. Faith can not be forced.

If we SCs hurl insults and low blows towards others and their beliefs then expect the same back. Let's not open the door to a mudslinging match and let's be cordial, civil and respectful to each other's POVs. 

:NH:

 

Edited by Aflower
Making it clear who this post is primarily addressed to.

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11 hours ago, Aflower said:

I've been thinking about exactly the same thing recently. I haven't read any of the later posts so I hope that I'm not repeating what someone else has written.

I don't think it's arrogance. Sadly one of my cousins is an atheist too. He knows literally everything there is to know about every religion. He has read almost every book that is worth reading about Islam. He is without a shadow of doubt one of the most emotionally evolved and intelligent people I know. He is working as a Managing Director for a multinational company and is an exceptionally emotionally intelligent individual. He is a morally upright man so it's not as if he is using this as his ticket to live a crazy lifestyle - he just has no faith in Islam or religion. 

My family are all well read and very well versed in religion - in all honesty I have a fair bit of catching up to do in comparison to them. My entire family have spent literally evenings upon evenings debating with my atheist cousin but to no avail. It may sound terrible to you but sometimes my atheist cousin is so convincing in his arguments that my sis in law once said that she better call it a night because she felt that she was beginning to question her own faith. I could see that others in the room were showing the same signs but probably didn't dare to express it. I'm sure they felt relieved that someone else said it first and that they weren't alone in their thought process. But, when my sis in law woke up the next day she felt resolute in her faith again. In the case of my cousin, how can you make someone revive their faith in Allah when he already knows everything that is worth knowing about world religions, theology, philosophy, sciences etc. etc? We are not dealing with an ignorant person here. He is a very eloquent and impressive individual. He has spoken to many maulanas too but when they get stumped because they can't answer his questions the maulanas start acting all defensive and coy. 

 There are some people who are atheists out of sheer ignorance and laziness. I believe that individuals like @Klanky are not necessarily averse to religion or God. Some atheists probably in fact want to be convinced of the existence of a creator or alternatively want someone to challenge their thought process in every way possible to ensure that their decision of being an atheist is correct. Why else would individuals like @Klanky waste hours of his/her life on this forum. He/she is not trying to convince you all to be an atheist, but subconsciously he/she probably wants someone to convince him/her that there is a God. I sense the same thing with my atheist cousin. Muslim people in the community are often rude to my cousin and say why can't you "Just believe? We do." His answer is: "Why don't you convince me to believe then?" His response always makes me think that there is hope for him. I hope and pray that one day the penny drops and my cousin finds his faith. Let's not be disrespectful towards atheists. We should be compassionate and understanding. Maybe they are trying to find a reason to believe and by being negative towards them we may push them even further away from believing. BTW I am not accusing you of this @dragonxx. It's just a general comment.

I don't view atheists as people who don't believe in God... but merely people who don't believe in God yet.

On a side note the sis in law that I'm referring to is not married to my atheist cousin.

Thank you for the insight.

Your cousin sounds like the class of people who needs questions answered the type of which people like us don't even understand, and so needs an even more clever scholar/person to answer.

I find it really weird when people resort to saying things like "just believe", I agree it's totally disrespectful, and honestly the topic shouldn't even be opened with them (atheists) unless they expressed interest to speak about it.

In regards to your cousin, feel free to write down some of his hard questions and post them here, there are some bright people on SC who might be able to answer, particularly some of the lurkers who have been lurking for a while now.

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1 minute ago, Aflower said:

Dude, @Asghar Ali Karbalai has evidently given a very bad example. But I kindly request you to not refer to Allah in such a manner. You are hurting the sentiments of many SCs by doing so. Mine included. By all means critique the nature of the example stated but do not disrespect our God.  

 

Fair enough and totally agree but unfortunately Asghar did start it tbh. Asghar you need to remember where it says in the Quran do not insult lest Allah is insulted back.

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32 minutes ago, Aflower said:

Well the list could go on and on...

Namely, most if not all Prophets witnessed a physical sign from God; or witnessed a miracle or were communicated to directly by Angels. He says show me a sign or a miracle and I will believe too.

I am a Layman. Still, above question is not a basic fundamental question. 

You exist, this is a physical fact. You are a dependent entity, is also a physical and undeniable fact. No tool can disprove this reality. You are a dependent entity. 

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10 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

I am a Layman. Still, above question is not a basic fundamental question. 

You exist, this is a physical fact. You are a dependent entity, is also a physical and undeniable fact. No tool can disprove this reality. You are a dependent entity. 

I appreciate the intent here but your explanation doesn't really cut the mustard. 

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1 hour ago, Klanky said:

Your point there probably applies to all sorts of scenarios in life - things we didn't do because they didn't seem important at the time and we come to regret it. Often there is no way to know if you've made the right choice. Belief in God may be the result of your upbringing or of various choices you make along the way but I don't think that "decision" is an accurate word for it. The effect of cumulative twists and turns in a life time is not a decision.  

@Aflower

Don't judge my example simply because you are not in my place.

I know what I have said and I totally don't regret it.

Read what he said that he did not feel the need of a creator logically or spiritually so I had to give him an example of the 'need' in the way I wanted to.

To you, your opinion, to me mine's and don't judge my opinion.

@Klanky You did not answer me yet regarding marriage.

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34 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

Fair enough and totally agree but unfortunately Asghar did start it tbh. Asghar you need to remember where it says in the Quran do not insult lest Allah is insulted back.

Go through the thread properly maybe then you will know I did not start the 'insulting' first.

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11 minutes ago, Aflower said:

I appreciate the intent here but your explanation doesn't really cut the mustard. 

 

You exist, this is a physical fact. You are a dependent entity, is also a physical and undeniable fact. No tool can disprove this reality. You are a dependent entity. 

Make an intelligent and logical point. 

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3 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

 

@Klanky You did not answer me yet regarding marriage.

Brother @Asghar Ali Karbalai, I am by no means on Klankys side here but please hear me out. Your question about marriage makes no sense in this context. You are going off on a tangent now. Let's not derail the topic. 

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Just now, Aflower said:

Brother @Asghar Ali Karbalai, I am by no means on Klankys side here but please hear me out. Your question about marriage makes no sense in this context. You are going off on a tangent now. Let's not derail the topic. 

Again you are being judgemental, kindly stop doing it when you don't even know the entire concern or point that is going to be made with my question if he replies which I doubt.

It does not matter to me on whose side you are with due respect.

You have freedom of speech as you mentioned so do I, stop telling me and judging me, you are not makin any sense either by rushing and judging without facts and figures.

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47 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

Fair enough and totally agree but unfortunately Asghar did start it tbh. Asghar you need to remember where it says in the Quran do not insult lest Allah is insulted back.

Yes and you need to research and remember on the nuzul of Surah e Tawba and the instructions given by Prophet(saww) to Moula Ali(asws) to send kuffars out of Makkah and till today kuffars cannot enter.

I deny those who deny Allah, simple as that.

He is continuously pinpointing at Allah and all you have is me to be judged about the matter.

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2 hours ago, Klanky said:

Please don't go to any trouble trying to convince me that there is God, my position on such entities is that I don't care if they exist or not because this kind of existence is a concept that has literally no meaning for me except as a projection of the human mind.

Are you a physical existence? A physical, chemical, biological Dependent existence- ? 

Is there any doubt in you been a Dependent existence? 

Layman

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1 hour ago, Aflower said:

Well the list could go on and on...

Namely, most if not all Prophets witnessed a physical sign from God; or witnessed a miracle or were communicated to directly by Angels. He says show me a sign or a miracle and I will believe too.

The question is that why are we even comparing ourselves with prophets to start with? Do we even understand how everything in the world of malakut works? Do we even understand the justice of Allah?

Allah appoints Imams (as) and Prophets (as) as perfect beings so we can follow them and take them as our authority. Allah wants a perfect human being to exist in every day and age, because they are a reflection of his beauty. Our Imams (as) and Prophets (as) have a direct connection with Allah because their souls are free of vices, the light of Allah has reached their hearts. These holy personalities have so much humility that they would weep during their prayers. Faith cannot be quantified so even amoung Prophets there are some who are in higher rank than others, therefore this means a stronger connection.

Just ponder over this verse where the angel questioned Allah:

 "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You."

He (Allah) said: "I know that which you do not know."

Therefore this question of your friend seems pretty alright but it goes to show that he doesn't understand the true meaning of faith nor does he understand the justice of Allah. 

There's a lot that can be said, but he really lacks understanding tbh.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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51 minutes ago, Aflower said:

Dear @Klanky, @Asghar Ali Karbalai has evidently given a very bad example. But I kindly request you to not refer to Allah in such a manner. You are hurting the sentiments of many SCs by doing so. Mine included. By all means critique the nature of the example stated but do not disrespect our God.  

Obviously this is a two way street brothers and sisters. We need to respect that some people do not believe yet. Faith can not be forced.

If we SCs hurl insults and low blows towards others and their beliefs then expect the same back. Let's not open the door to a mudslinging match and let's be cordial, civil and respectful to each other's POVs. 

:NH:

 

No disrespect was intended, I was not generalizing but referring specifically to that guy's representation and I have no idea if it is a correct or accurate representation or not 

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2 hours ago, Klanky said:

Please don't go to any trouble trying to convince me that there is God, my position on such entities is that I don't care if they exist or not because this kind of existence is a concept that has literally no meaning for me except as a projection of the human mind. 

Second: If you say 'Something is a projection of a human mind". Your statement is also a product of a human mind. (your Mind)

Now what? 

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7 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Second: If you say 'Something is a projection of a human mind". Your statement is also a product of a human mind. (your Mind)

Now what? 

I don't know about you but I'm having a cup of tea and a mince pie 

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12 minutes ago, Klanky said:

No disrespect was intended, I was not generalizing but referring specifically to that guy's representation and I have no idea if it is a correct or accurate representation or not 

Thank you @Klanky. In my view the guys representation was neither accurate or correct. 

Edited by Aflower

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19 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

 

The question is that why are we even comparing ourselves with prophets to start with? Do we even understand how everything in the world of malakut works? Do we even understand the justice of Allah?

Allah appoints Imams (as) and Prophets (as) as perfect beings so we can follow them and take them as our authority. Allah wants a perfect human being to exist in every day and age, because they are a reflection of his beauty. Our Imams (as) and Prophets (as) have a direct connection with Allah because their souls are free of vices, the light of Allah has reached their hearts. These holy personalities have so much humility that they would weep during their prayers. Faith cannot be quantified so even amoung Prophets there are some who are in higher rank than others, therefore this means a stronger connection.

Just ponder over this verse where the angel questioned Allah:

 "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You."

He (Allah) said: "I know that which you do not know."

Therefore this question of your friend seems pretty alright but it goes to show that he doesn't understand the true meaning of faith nor does he understand the justice of Allah. 

There's a lot that can be said, but he really lacks understanding tbh.

My dear brother I 100% agree with you. But it's not me that you are trying to convince here. The issue at hand is that an atheist doesn't even believe in God so how is one to convince them of the "perfect beings" that are our Prophets? This response would sadly fall on deaf ears. 

 

Edited by Aflower

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