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In the Name of God بسم الله
Reza

The Nature of Atheistic Doubt

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2 hours ago, Klanky said:

Please don't go to any trouble trying to convince me that there is God, my position on such entities is that I don't care if they exist or not because this kind of existence is a concept that has literally no meaning for me except as a projection of the human mind. 

Second: If you say 'Something is a projection of a human mind". Your statement is also a product of a human mind. (your Mind)

Now what? 

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7 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Second: If you say 'Something is a projection of a human mind". Your statement is also a product of a human mind. (your Mind)

Now what? 

I don't know about you but I'm having a cup of tea and a mince pie 

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12 minutes ago, Klanky said:

No disrespect was intended, I was not generalizing but referring specifically to that guy's representation and I have no idea if it is a correct or accurate representation or not 

Thank you @Klanky. In my view the guys representation was neither accurate or correct. 

Edited by Aflower

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19 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

 

The question is that why are we even comparing ourselves with prophets to start with? Do we even understand how everything in the world of malakut works? Do we even understand the justice of Allah?

Allah appoints Imams (as) and Prophets (as) as perfect beings so we can follow them and take them as our authority. Allah wants a perfect human being to exist in every day and age, because they are a reflection of his beauty. Our Imams (as) and Prophets (as) have a direct connection with Allah because their souls are free of vices, the light of Allah has reached their hearts. These holy personalities have so much humility that they would weep during their prayers. Faith cannot be quantified so even amoung Prophets there are some who are in higher rank than others, therefore this means a stronger connection.

Just ponder over this verse where the angel questioned Allah:

 "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You."

He (Allah) said: "I know that which you do not know."

Therefore this question of your friend seems pretty alright but it goes to show that he doesn't understand the true meaning of faith nor does he understand the justice of Allah. 

There's a lot that can be said, but he really lacks understanding tbh.

My dear brother I 100% agree with you. But it's not me that you are trying to convince here. The issue at hand is that an atheist doesn't even believe in God so how is one to convince them of the "perfect beings" that are our Prophets? This response would sadly fall on deaf ears. 

 

Edited by Aflower

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Point is a Physical, chemical, biological Dependent entity living in a Dependent System needs to make an argument for this  (Rationally, logically(Scientifically) Proven Fact, before it can proceed to the next level. 

By Definition Dependent Status of you and your surrounding imply what? 

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If people can't even acknowledge the basic rational/logical/(Scientific) realities, of their been a dependent entity and living in a dependent system. It means hiding the Truth. 

Only reason for the implied doubt must be. 

*****

Page 2 of this Thread. 

أَرَأَيْتَ مَنِ اتَّخَذَ إِلَٰهَهُ هَوَاهُ أَفَأَنْتَ تَكُونُ عَلَيْهِ وَكِيلًا {43}

[Shakir 25:43] Have you seen him who takes his low desires for his god? Will you then be a protector over him?
[Pickthal 25:43] Hast thou seen him who chooseth for his god his own lust? Wouldst thou then be guardian over him?
[Yusufali 25:43] Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own passion (or impulse)? Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him?

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235059369-the-nature-of-atheistic-doubt/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-3170990

 

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On 9/25/2018 at 8:00 AM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

There is absolutely no doubt about the existence of Allah. 

“I found myself subject to one of two options: either I created myself or something other than myself created me. If I created myself, I am also subject to one of two options: either I created my self while my self already existed – but then I would not need to create it since it already existed – or I created my self while I was nonexistent, but you already know that the nonexistent cannot bring about anything. Therefore, the third meaning is proven – that I have a Creator, Who is Lord of the Worlds.”

Imam Sadiq (as)

Can I love this a billion times? Labayk ya Imam Jaffar e Sadiq(as)!!!

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24 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

Can I love this a billion times? Labayk ya Imam Jaffar e Sadiq(as)!!!

MashAllah I agree with you a billion times. 

But given that the topic is the nature of atheistic doubt, would a critic not question if this same logic should then apply to the Creator too? If we did apply this same logic to the Creator (Astaghfirullah) then when would this cycle end? I'm just being the devil's advocate here because I know that this is what an atheist would say. 

Ultimately I think that either you believe or you don't. Something undefinable has to register in an intrinsic manner. 

Edited by Aflower

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18 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

At "The Independent Entity". 

I agree with you 100% because of my unwavering belief and Imaan. Please try to understand that Shukar Allah you and I are 'choosing' to believe this in the absence of any tangible hard evidence. Not everyone is as blessed as us to be gifted with unyielding faith.

Whether we choose to believe or not, of course does not change the fact that there is a Creator called Allah. 

But some people 'choose' not to believe this, or are simply unable to believe this for some inexplicable reason (even though we are all looking at the same material and literature). 

Edited by Aflower

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The only thing that does, can and ever will give Atheism any edge in any argument is the question of "where's your proof?"

Everything else about the atheist worldview is based of it's own (depending on the individual, as Buddhists for instance tend to be atheists) epistemological dogma based on the nature of the physical world (such as the materialist world view, which considers the physical to be all there is - which is not fact, only perception). 

Then, everything else comes down to philosophical argument and scientific disagreement (remembering that there is no universally agreed scientific hypothesis of the nature of existence and reality - only theories based on observed conditions within specific scientific fields and speculations based off logical conclusions on prior said epistemological assumptions of said fields, which is where more abstract science comes in)

 

Plus, atheists these days have a tendency to be lazy, when they should be reading more Nietzsche and Wittgenstein rather than watching Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris convey the same age old arrogant superiority without any valuable philosophical contributions. 

Edited by HakimPtsid

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22 minutes ago, Aflower said:

@HakimPtsid If I am not mistaken you are a revert? What made the penny drop for you? 

Yep. 

Well, I grew up in a Christian family but was an atheist in throughout most of my teenage years (I hated religion at that time) - then I became interested in mysticism and occultism (as well as philosophy) around age 18/19. This caused me to start exploring religion from a much deeper and nuanced way - leading to Hinduism, Christian mysticism, Taoism and so on. 

Hinduism really broke the seal between the physical and non-physical for me, plus practicing many yogic exercised related to transcendent states of consciousness really opened my mind to the way we perceive things but most of all, what "God" is - the realization of God (Surah 112.) My interest in Islam really started with Sufism (and it's relation to certain types of Occultism). 

Reading the Quran after that was profound for me (even more than the Upanishads), something about it on a very deeply spiritual level clicked for me (even though I'd read it before in the past). Then I started learning more about Islam way more in depth, with a growing disinterest in Sunni Islam and fascination with Shia sects like the Ismailis.

 

Basically, I've already been through Atheistic (even Satanist and Nihilist) thought processes before. Ontology is a necessary study, I believe. With Atheism, their hold on the "where's your proof" is by no means a superior position. When you look into counter-religions like Discordianism for instance, you'll see that there is a monopoly on relativism among many as a fundamental tenant on truth, as a consequence of modernism. You also find that within argumentative discourse between atheists and religious people that every position one can hold in relation to existence, has to come from the root of an epistemological dogma. Ours (as Muslims) is that there is one God (Allah), that the Quran is the word of God and that it was revealed to Muhammad. - The Atheist's (common) position is that there isn't any god in any form and that truth is only measured by what is physically or logically** (from their own epistemological position, remember) reasonable. 

 

 

** (Remembering that logic is not synonymous with truth either, it is a process of arguments that is inherently supposed to be non-contradictory.)

Edited by HakimPtsid

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