Jump to content
aaljibar

Which Marja' allows free mixing of gyms?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Asalamu alaykum.

As you guys know sayyid sistani (may Allah increase his life). His fatwa is that it is not permissible even if it doesn't lead to haram, under obligatory precaution.

Since it is 'obligatory precaution'. I have a right to follow a another marja' who's more knowledgeable on this subject. Does anyone know a marja' that allows the free mixing in exercise environments?

Jazakallah khairan.

Edited by aaljibar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This seems to depend on the environment in which you live in. The fatwas given depend on social and cultural standards and mentalities. 

In most western societies, there is no to little catcalling at the gym, whereas in middle eastern societies, a woman would be harassed aggressively and catcalled. People in the West go to the gym to focus on their own work, IE: strength/insurance training and whatnot.

The Marjas give fatwas based on context. They don’t know what it’s really like going into a mixed gym in a western society. They live in Arab and Persian communities, where the men have been raised to gawk and stare at women and cat call no matter what she’s wearing. 

Even in Arab communities, hijabi women dance in weddings and no one cat calls them. But if a hijabi woman dances in Indo-pak or Persian cultures, she would be harassed. That’s why the fatwas are given. They highly depend on circumstances and context as well as cultural attitudes. 

EDIT: in the end, follow Marjas but you also have to use your brain to really think about this issue. What is the environment like where you live? Will you be able to focus on yourself while at the gym? Or will the gym be a place of picking up girls? 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

This seems to depend on the environment in which you live in. The fatwas given depend on social and cultural standards and mentalities. 

In most western societies, there is no to little catcalling at the gym, whereas in middle eastern societies, a woman would be harassed aggressively and catcalled. People in the West go to the gym to focus on their own work, IE: strength/insurance training and whatnot.

The Marjas give fatwas based on context. They don’t know what it’s really like going into a mixed gym in a western society. They live in Arab and Persian communities, where the men have been raised to gawk and stare at women and cat call no matter what she’s wearing. 

Even in Arab communities, hijabi women dance in weddings and no one cat calls them. But if a hijabi woman dances in Indo-pak or Persian cultures, she would be harassed. That’s why the fatwas are given. They highly depend on circumstances and context as well as cultural attitudes. 

EDIT: in the end, follow Marjas but you also have to use your brain to really think about this issue. What is the environment like where you live? Will you be able to focus on yourself while at the gym? Or will the gym be a place of picking up girls? 

This is misleading if you don't mind me saying so. The ruling has nothing to do with catcalling or with society/culture. The marja has categorically said that it is not permissible (based on obligatory precaution). 

@aaljibar in this case you can refer to another marja but you should already know which marja you will refer to in cases of obligatory precaution (as opposed to looking for one who allows a certain act and then deciding to follow their ruling). This is the marja who you consider to be the most knowledgeable after sayed al sistani.

 

Wallahu a'lam 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

the end, follow Marjas but you also have to use your brain to really think about this issue. What is the environment like where you live? Will you be able to focus on yourself while at the gym? Or will the gym be a place of picking up girls?

Sister, I have to disagree with you on this. Being a maraja is not easy, and we aren't qualified to make an assumption that they are influenced by society and culture. Our maraja have spent years studying traditions (over thousands of them), and have mastered all the sciences of Islam. They put personal desires and tastes aside, and come up with a fatwa based on the teachings of Ahlulbayt(as).

This is a very delicate issue, and we can't expect our intellect to guide us if we havent mastered the sciences of Islam.

We defs should expect some fatwas to go against our taste, however we have no right to question an expert and say "he is wrong". It's like saying to a doctor, "I don't agree with you that I should take this medicine"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

They put personal desires and tastes aside, and come up with a fatwa based on the teachings of Ahlulbayt(as).

 

Brother, while it’s true that becoming a marja is not easy, I would have to say that if they do come up with fatwas based on the teachings of the Ahlul Bayt (AS) alone, then why are there so many inconsistencies in fatwas? One marja declaring something to be haram might mean for another that it is simply makrooh. As humans, we cannot completely put our biases aside. 

For the longest time, Marjas declared that all tattoos were haram and that making ghusl in showers were haram and that you had to immerse yourself in a bath to do ghusl after showing. (Or something to that effect.) After years of Marjas studying on this issue, they declared that tattoos are halal and that making ghusl is the shower was all right as well. 

In the end, Marjas are fallible and we should always use our head when analyzing these issues. We need to check ourselves. Allah didn’t send Marjas so we could stop thinking for ourselves, but being mindful of boundaries. 

 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Brother, while it’s true that becoming a marja is not easy, I would have to say that if they do come up with fatwas based on the teachings of the Ahlul Bayt (AS) alone, then why are there so many inconsistencies in fatwas? One marja declaring something to be haram might mean for another that it is simply makrooh. As humans, we cannot completely put our biases aside. 

For the longest time, Marjas declared that all tattoos were haram and that making ghusl in showers were haram and that you had to immerse yourself in a bath to do ghusl after showing. (Or something to that effect.) After years of Marjas studying on this issue, they declared that tattoos are halal and that making ghusl is the shower was all right as well. 

In the end, Marjas are fallible and we should always use our head when analyzing these issues. We need to check ourselves. Allah didn’t send Marjas so we could stop thinking for ourselves, but being mindful of boundaries. 

 

Agree 100%. They are not our holy imams (a.s) so they do make mistakes. Such as not having thorough background into the situation and also the reason so many of them write 'obligatory precaution' and so many don't agree with each other. It doesn't mean they know everything. The same as doctors because I have had doctors misdiagnose me.

Edited by aaljibar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I thought Sistani said "it is not allowed", not "based on obligatory precaution".

In the english website it says 'it's not allowed' but on the arabic one it says something along the lines of 'it is haram even if there is no perceived chance of doing haram, based on obligatory precaution.'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

would have to say that if they do come up with fatwas based on the teachings of the Ahlul Bayt (AS) alone, then why are there so many inconsistencies in fatwas? One marja declaring something to be haram might mean for another that it is simply makrooh. As humans, we cannot completely put our biases aside

You're definitely right that there fatwas are not 100% right - like it's not what the Imams (as) would say/do in a particular situation. I never meant to say that they're infallible or anything, that's why we find inconsistencies in their fatwas. However they do have books (many volumes) which explain the reasoning behind the rule they have derived, and it's in Arabic so we can't really expect to go through all those volumes. I just thought that it's wrong and misleading to say that they're influenced by "culture" once we have absolutely no knowledge of their reasoning. Their English Law books online are a condensed version for people who simply want to follow their opinions.

2 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

In the end, Marjas are fallible and we should always use our head when analyzing these issues. We need to check ourselves. Allah didn’t send Marjas so we could stop thinking for ourselves, but being mindful of boundaries. 

Yeah, but the whole doctrine of taqleed is so we put our trust in a knowledgeable and adl marja, so Allah doesn't hold us accountable for disobeying their rulings and potentially doing that which is wrong. There are many hadiths which tell us to refer to the most knowledgeable of our time, and it isn't considered blind following, because these are matters of fiqh and we want to know the opinion of Ahlulbayt (as) to some degree. If we start disobeying our marja because we simply don't agree with their opinions, then we'll have to provide an answer to Allah on the day of judgement, and our judgment is not based on any research etc. It's not logical to say "I decided to go to the gym, because here the culture is different, while my marja back in middle-east doesn't understand the West etc." This is not how taqleed works.

I would love to be corrected if I said anything wrong.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Brother, while it’s true that becoming a marja is not easy, I would have to say that if they do come up with fatwas based on the teachings of the Ahlul Bayt (AS) alone, then why are there so many inconsistencies in fatwas? One marja declaring something to be haram might mean for another that it is simply makrooh. As humans, we cannot completely put our biases aside.  

 

 

These differences are not due to bias and generally they are quite minimal. Whether something is interpreted as haram or makrooh might come down to how strongly it was discouraged in a certain narration. The safe approach in such a situation is to practice ihtiyat (precaution). 

Regarding your other comment about using our own mind, this becomes relevant once the mind is equipped with the right basis and foundation. Indeed after quran, sunnah and ijma the fourth source of rulings is aql, but the aql must already be familiar with the quran, with the ahadith and with the ijma of the ulema for it to be a reliable guideline in matters of fiqh (assuming that the three previous sources have not provided a conclusion). 

When one is not well aware of the quran, the sunnah and the ijma of previous scholars then it is highly unlikely that their erroneous reasoning alone will yield the right conclusion in terms of jurisprudence.

Wallahu a'lam 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just also wanted to say @ali_fatheroforphans that doctors misdiagnose as well. My GP misdiagnosed me with depression and he gave me anti depressants. I didn’t take them, but imagine if I had? For someone with Bipolar Disorder, anti-depressants would have been extremely dangerous. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be honest i have had a lot of trouble on this topic and finally decided to just go to my local mawlana and he said that its fine as long as they are covered with their clothes and i also asked another sheikh in my community and he said that he also goes to the gym because he has to lose weight and i see him there sometimes.

So I think it's about what intention you go with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SeekingHeaven said:

To be honest i have had a lot of trouble on this topic and finally decided to just go to my local mawlana and he said that its fine as long as they are covered with their clothes and i also asked another sheikh in my community and he said that he also goes to the gym because he has to lose weight and i see him there sometimes.

So I think it's about what intention you go with.

I agree, but I need confirmation from another marja' before I start going.

Edited by aaljibar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, aaljibar said:

I agree, but I need confirmation from another marja' before I start going.

If you can, you could just buy some weights and train and home, if you have not ever done weight lifting before than that would be enough for now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×