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In the Name of God بسم الله

Doubts of shia

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Salaam

I am a Shia Muslim but lately I have been doubting our sect due to my lack of knowledge during ashura which is draining my faith. Yes I 100% believe in the ahlul bayt but I feel as though bidah is being done by creators of shiaism:

The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) told us that: “Every innovation is going astray, and every going astray will be in the Fire.” Narrated by Muslim (867) and an-Nasaa’i (1578) 

Please justify for me why cursing the sahabas , mourning for imam Hussain, beating the chest is allowed which I see as innovation.

Thank you please answer and back up statements I believe in the Quran and ahlul bayt and not surprised by the corruption then as it is relevant today.

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Aleykoum Salam,

I would like to say that I find that strange that for a Shia you have no ideas of such things. About cursing Sahabas is it not obvious to do that when we know what they did to the ahl hul bayt (as) that you pretend to love so much? 

For the rest of your questions I advice you to take a look on this video. 

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:salam:

This is not about cursing sahabas, rather about cursing the murderers of the progeny of the Holy Prophet (sawas).

As for mourning and beating the chest, it had more turned into cultural and theatrical stuff, which however can prove very emotional and spiritually benefic for a believer if done with a pure niya, not as a result of peer pressure.

Edited by realizm
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4 hours ago, Notperfectmuslim said:

Salaam

I am a Shia Muslim but lately I have been doubting our sect due to my lack of knowledge during ashura which is draining my faith. Yes I 100% believe in the ahlul bayt but I feel as though bidah is being done by creators of shiaism:

The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) told us that: “Every innovation is going astray, and every going astray will be in the Fire.” Narrated by Muslim (867) and an-Nasaa’i (1578) 

Please justify for me why cursing the sahabas , mourning for imam Hussain, beating the chest is allowed which I see as innovation.

Thank you please answer and back up statements I believe in the Quran and ahlul bayt and not surprised by the corruption then as it is relevant today.

Which companions are you referring to? 

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5 hours ago, Notperfectmuslim said:

Please justify for me why cursing the sahabas ,

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235035965-fadak/#comment-3121952

فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنْفُسَنَا وَأَنْفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَلْ لَعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ {61}

[Pickthal 3:61] And whoso disputeth with thee concerning him, after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, say (unto him): Come! We will summon our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves, then we will pray humbly (to our Lord) and (solemnly) invoke the curse of Allah upon those who lie.

*****

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَكْتُمُونَ مَا أَنْزَلْنَا مِنَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالْهُدَىٰ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا بَيَّنَّاهُ لِلنَّاسِ فِي الْكِتَابِ ۙ أُولَٰئِكَ يَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّاعِنُونَ {159}

[Pickthal 2:159] Lo! Those who hide the proofs and the guidance which We revealed, after We had made it clear to mankind in the Scripture: such are accursed of Allah and accursed of those who have the power to curse.

*****

There is Full Surah 63, Titled :  Al- Munaafiqoon (The Hypocrites) 

إِذَا جَاءَكَ الْمُنَافِقُونَ قَالُوا نَشْهَدُ إِنَّكَ لَرَسُولُ اللَّهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ إِنَّكَ لَرَسُولُهُ وَاللَّهُ يَشْهَدُ إِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ لَكَاذِبُونَ {1}

[Pickthal 63:1] When the hypocrites come unto thee (O Muhammad), they say: We bear witness that thou art indeed Allah's messenger. And Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the hypocrites indeed are speaking falsely.

اتَّخَذُوا أَيْمَانَهُمْ جُنَّةً فَصَدُّوا عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۚ إِنَّهُمْ سَاءَ مَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ {2}

*****

[Pickthal 63:2] They make their faith a pretext so that they may turn (men) from the way of Allah. Verily evil is that which they are wont to do,

Not sure your definition of " Sahaba" , there were people who lived during the life time of Muhammad al- Mustafa (peace be upon him and his pure progeny) and they among them were Hypocrites. There were people after Muhammad al -Mustafa (peace be upon him and his pure progeny) who lied. 

So, not sure what you have been told, read the Qur'an and history.

Iblis and its progeny is cursed in the Qur'an do you question it ? 

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5 hours ago, Notperfectmuslim said:

mourning for imam Hussain, beating the chest is allowed which I see as innovation.

This particular angle has been used and simple people were distracted. 

Reality is that Remembrance of Karbala. Martyrdom Son of Sayeda Fatima Az Zahra(sa) , family and True/committed/loyal  Companions and the atrocities committed after Ashura- the grand daughters of Muhammad al -Mustafa (peace be upon him and his pure progeny) were taken captives and taken as prisoners to Kufa( Iraq) and damascus (Syria)-   Highlights the inhumanity that existed just 50 years after Muhammad al - Mustafa (peace be upon him and his pure progeny). 

So, some of us are not simpletons and  do not buy these tricks. Nor we look to justify it to anyone who's faith is an innovation.

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5 hours ago, Notperfectmuslim said:

Salaam

I am a Shia Muslim but lately I have been doubting our sect

Do you doubt the Wilayat of Amir al-Muminin(Commander of the Faithful), Imam al-Muttaqeen(Leader of the Pious), Hujjah of Allah(awj)(Proof of Allah(awj), Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib(as).?

If you do, on what basis? 

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6 hours ago, Notperfectmuslim said:

Salaam

I am a Shia Muslim but lately I have been doubting our sect due to my lack of knowledge during ashura which is draining my faith. Yes I 100% believe in the ahlul bayt but I feel as though bidah is being done by creators of shiaism:

The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) told us that: “Every innovation is going astray, and every going astray will be in the Fire.” Narrated by Muslim (867) and an-Nasaa’i (1578) 

Please justify for me why cursing the sahabas , mourning for imam Hussain, beating the chest is allowed which I see as innovation.

Thank you please answer and back up statements I believe in the Quran and ahlul bayt and not surprised by the corruption then as it is relevant today.

Firstly I am not sure who you are referring to as 'creators' of shi'ism. The title 'shia' was given by the holy prophet (pbuh) himself in various narrations. As an example you can refer to the tafseer of surat al bayyinah (verse 7). 

Regarding your questions:

-cursing the companions: the concept you are referring to is in fact a condemnation of and dissociation from all those who opposed Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, his prophet (saws) and the aimmah (as). We do not differentiate here between poor and rich, prominent and unpopular or any other distinction. Being a companion of the prophet does not result in immunity. If a companion has opposed Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, his prophet (saws) or the aimmah (as) then we condemn them. The practice of condemnation is rooted in the Holy Qur'an itself.

-mourning Imam Hussain (as): this is a sunnah of the prophet (saws) and the aimmah (as). You will be able to find various narrations through a quick google search inshaAllah. If not please let us know.

-beating the chest: this is one of the various forms in which people mourn the Imam. It can vary from one culture to another. It is not an essential or fundamental part of religion, rather just one of many forms of mourning for the Imam (as). 

Wallahu a'lam 

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On 9/18/2018 at 5:23 AM, Notperfectmuslim said:

Salaam

I am a Shia Muslim but lately I have been doubting our sect due to my lack of knowledge during ashura which is draining my faith. Yes I 100% believe in the ahlul bayt but I feel as though bidah is being done by creators of shiaism:

The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) told us that: “Every innovation is going astray, and every going astray will be in the Fire.” Narrated by Muslim (867) and an-Nasaa’i (1578) 

Please justify for me why cursing the sahabas , mourning for imam Hussain, beating the chest is allowed which I see as innovation.

Thank you please answer and back up statements I believe in the Quran and ahlul bayt and not surprised by the corruption then as it is relevant today.

We don't curse sahaba. We curse munafiqeen. Cursing aka sending la'an is an act that Allah and the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) have don't in the Quran so are you against the Sunnah of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mourned for Hussain (عليه السلام) at his birth so it is also sunnah. 

What kind of Muslim are you that you believe following the sunnah of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is bidah?

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https://www.al-islam.org/house-sorrows-life-sayyidah-fatimah-al-zahra-and-her-grief-shaykh-abbas-qummi/chapter-4-intense#lamentation-zahra-during-day-and-night-and-complaining-people-madinah

Quote

"Lamentation of Zahra During the Day and Night and the Complaining of the People of Madinah

Fatimah then returned back to her house, however kept weeping day and night. Her lamentation did not subside nor did the flow of tears end. A group of the elders of Madinah came to the Commander of the Faithful Imam ‘Ali and said, “Fatimah weeps day and night! We cannot sleep at night due to it and we cannot find respite during the day. We want you to tell Fatimah that either weep at night and remain silent during the day, or weep during the day and remain silent at night.” Imam ‘Ali replied, “I shall convey your message to her with due respect.”

‘Ali came to Fatimah and saw her engrossed in immense sorrow and when her sight fell upon him, she became calm. Imam ‘Ali said, “The elders of Madinah have requested me to ask you to either weep at night or during the day.”

Fatimah replied, “O Abul Hasan! My life among these people is very short, and soon I will be departing. By Allah! I shall weep constantly until I unite with my father the Prophet of Allah.”

Imam ‘Ali said, “You are at liberty, you may do as you wish.”

Imam ‘Ali then built a house for Fatimah at the cemetary of al-Baqi’, far away from the houses of the people and he named it ‘Baytul Ahzan’ (The House of Sorrows). Everyday, Fatimah would dispatch (Imam) Hasan and (Imam) Husayn before her to al-Baqi’ and then she would proceed towards it weeping. Then she would sit and weep among the graves, and when night would fall, Imam ‘Ali would come and take them back home."

 

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21 hours ago, Notperfectmuslim said:

Salaam

why cursing the sahabas

Wa aleykumsalaam,

Those Sahabah Who turned their back are cursed, Yes even Quran testify that some Sahabah were hypocrites.

"And from among those who are round about you of the dwellers of the desert there are hypocrites, and from among the people of Medina (also); they are stubborn in hypocrisy; you do not know them; We know them; We will chastise them twice then shall they be turned back to a grievous chastisement " [Quran 9:101]

21 hours ago, Notperfectmuslim said:

mourning for imam Hussain

Rather it is a Sunnah, It is present in authentic Sunni and Shia hadeeth, when Jibraeel (as) informed Prophet (sawas) what his nation will do to his son after him, he cried, thereafter it became Sunnah.

21 hours ago, Notperfectmuslim said:

beating the chest is allowed which I see as innovation.

You can be a good shia without beating your chest.

Wa aleykumsalaam,

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15 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Do you doubt the Wilayat of Amir al-Muminin(Commander of the Faithful), Imam al-Muttaqeen(Leader of the Pious), Hujjah of Allah(awj)(Proof of Allah(awj), Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib(as).?

If you do, on what basis? 

Informative replies from everyone may Allah barik feekon, I do not doubt the wilayat of imam Ali(as) but what I do doubt is sects because the Qur’an says: “And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves;” [Al-Qur’an 3:103]

I think maybe my issue is with sects because tafsir and hadiths as they are man made and open to many mistakes.

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21 hours ago, Notperfectmuslim said:

the sahabas ,

"the Muslim scholars invented a paradox by stating that whosoever pronounced the kalimah by mouth, saw, heard and talked to the Holy Prophet was a sahabi (companion) worthy of highest respect and honour, although the Quran has clearly refuted this theory. In addition to several Quranic verses, the surah al Munafiqun is a manifest testimony that there were many sincere companions among the followers of the Holy Prophet, but a powerful, scheming and evil group of hypocrites was lurking in the background which seized power at the opportune time to sow the seed of imperialism, contrary to the teachings of the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt, to fulfil their aim of destroying the true religion of Allah."

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235036580-hypocrites-of-medinahypocrites-of-mecca/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-2944679

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21 hours ago, Notperfectmuslim said:

Please justify for me why cursing

If you mean a derogatory word is something different.

*****

Even in secular world people denounce injustice/oppression/evil deeds and people  in clear words.

Its for our own benefit, announce your rejection of (Negative(s)) destructive thoughts/ideas/leaders/paths.

Like the do's and don'ts in life. Its important to remember the dont's s on daily basis. 

*****

"Question 101: Tawalla And Tabarra

Question: What is the meaning of Tawalla and Tabarra that we are taught as principles of faith? Can we act upon them in the modern age?

Answer: Generally Islam is compared to a blooming tree whose roots are equivalent to the principles of belief and the practical laws are like the branches. Generally ten branches of religion are mentioned.

Also the system of acts and worship acts in Islam is very vast. It is not limited to these ten. However, keeping in mind the importance of these ten they are given priority.

Three of these: Prayer, Fast and Hajj are connected with the worship acts, Prayers and attachment with the Almighty. Two of them (Zakat and Khums) are related to economics and pledge of Allah and five (Jihad, Amr bil Ma'roof, Nahy Anil Munkar, Tawalla and Tabarra) are associated with social, military and political problems.

Here the topics of discussion are the last two; Tawalla (to love) and Tabarra (to express aloofness). That is we love some and hate some. We should love the friends of Allah, those who desire truth, righteous people and supporters of truth and justice and we should hate the evildoers, oppressors, lovers of enjoyment and enemies of Allah, His Prophet and humanity.

Why shouldn't we love all of them? Why shouldn't we behave nicely with all of them? Can we forgo the method of living with amity in the present age? However, those who are in favor of having friendly relations with all must be asked:

In the world which has oppressors and oppressed, the unjust and the victims of injustice, the tyrants and the weak, the equitable and the usurpers, the pure and the dirty; shall we love all of them? Shall we remain pleased with all of them? Shall we help all of them? Can any human logic permit us to do so? Can the living conscience permit this mixing up?

These two principles are included in the basic principles of Islam so that the followers of truth, justice, freedom, purity and goodness can create unity among their ranks and that the impure, oppressive, and the unjust ones are boycotted and in way they are socially and morally subjugated by the unity of the good people.

Does the human body accept any sort of food? Isn't the sense of taste a device to discriminate between tasty and harmful substances? Isn't it a kind of Tawalla and Tabarra? Does the human body accept the poisonous substance or in case of cholera does it not throw out the harmful matter in vomit? Or does it accept everything and take the person to death? Doesn't it express distaste of harmful substances and separates it from useful matter?

Are not the capabilities of attraction and repulsion necessary for survival of the universe? Then why should the human society be exempted from Tawalla and Tabarra?

If instead of acting upon the two principles everyone agrees with every school of thought, every condition is accepted and human society does not get close to useful things and does not keep away from harmful things, the humanity will soon be destroyed.

That is the reason that the Holy Prophet (S) has said: “The strongest support of faith is to love for Allah and to express hatred for the sake of Allah.”

https://www.al-islam.org/philosophy-islamic-laws-nasir-makarim-shirazi-jafar-subhani/question-101-tawalla-and-tabarra

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Imam Hussein (as) protected Islam and gave away his life for this reason. There is a reason why people still mourn for Imam Hussein (as) till this day, it is backed up by logic and our traditions - even Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) started crying when he found out about the martyrdom.

Don't be too steeped into this idea of "bidah" which is thrown around by Salafis. The basic idea of holding a gathering to keep the memory of Imam Hussein (as) and his pure progeny alive, is there. Obviously there are many ways to mourn, and I don't think we have any right to question people who choose to beat their chests or those who don't. It also depends on which marja we follow.

Cursing those Sahabas who were the enemies of Ahlulbayt (as) is very logical. No one wil be able to even smell the fragrance of heaven if we have hatred of Ahlulbayt (as) in our hearts. Cursing is punishment from Allah, and we have every right to do so.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans
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On 9/18/2018 at 5:23 AM, Notperfectmuslim said:

Salaam

I am a Shia Muslim but lately I have been doubting our sect due to my lack of knowledge during ashura which is draining my faith. Yes I 100% believe in the ahlul bayt but I feel as though bidah is being done by creators of shiaism:

The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) told us that: “Every innovation is going astray, and every going astray will be in the Fire.” Narrated by Muslim (867) and an-Nasaa’i (1578) 

Please justify for me why cursing the sahabas , mourning for imam Hussain, beating the chest is allowed which I see as innovation.

Thank you please answer and back up statements I believe in the Quran and ahlul bayt and not surprised by the corruption then as it is relevant today.

Just going by what Muslim and nasai said in this hadith don't you think what happened in saqifa by muhajireen sahaba i.e gate crashing a meeting and appointing a leader of ALL muslims was a bidah ? In umars own word it was an error but in his opinion a neccessary one at that 

Why is the bidah card only used against imami Shia practices?

Furthermore ALL  religions evolve in some form over time,  even by the time sahaba migrated out of hijaz a lot of minor changes in Deen has happened so this is a myth that salafi islam is somehow purer

You have to take individual hadith a pinch of salt 

 

Edited by Panzerwaffe
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6 hours ago, Notperfectmuslim said:

I would like to also know the balance between the quran and the ahlul bayt, are they equal? A true Shia should follow both but I feel as many follow just the ahlul bayt and not our Deen.

Well if you are a imami shia the the two preach the same thing 

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7 hours ago, Notperfectmuslim said:

I would like to also know the balance between the quran and the ahlul bayt, are they equal? A true Shia should follow both but I feel as many follow just the ahlul bayt and not our Deen.

The prophet saaw has described the following words:

I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah and my `Itrat (Progeny), my Ahlul Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.

https://www.al-islam.org/shiah-are-real-ahlul-sunnah-muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi/hadith-al-thaqalayn-according-ahlul-sunnah

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On 9/19/2018 at 4:48 PM, Muslim2010 said:

The prophet saaw has described the following words:

I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah and my `Itrat (Progeny), my Ahlul Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.

https://www.al-islam.org/shiah-are-real-ahlul-sunnah-muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi/hadith-al-thaqalayn-according-ahlul-sunnah

Why isn’t this Hadith taken with the level of importance by Sunnis, as it is with Shias? As in, why does the Hadith about the Quran and sunnah being the two weighty things given precedence for Sunnis? Is it to do with level of Authenticity?

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Salam @seekingthebeloved It's not definitely  about level of authenticity  which sunnis have preferred to rely on vague forms of hadiths for doing wrong interpretation  from vague words likewise Sunnah which they have interrupted it as taking hadith & tradition  from any source even from enemies  of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) & prophet  Muhammad  (pbu)  even it would  be in contrast with holy Quran & rational  thinking but on the other hand in Shia viewpoint  the Sunnah  is hadith & tradition  from only trustworthy sources likewise well known followers of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام)  & infallible  Imams (عليه السلام) from hadith & tradition  of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) which is in line with holy Quran & rational  thinking.

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On 10/20/2021 at 1:25 PM, seekingthebeloved said:

Why isn’t this Hadith taken with the level of importance by Sunnis, as it is with Shias? As in, why does the Hadith about the Quran and sunnah being the two weighty things given precedence for Sunnis? Is it to do with level of Authenticity?

They inteprate it as to take care of the prophet family, for they do not believe that it is meant to follow them and obey them. It will also contradict with their belief system that prophet did not leave successor. 

There have always been two different ways who disagree with each other, and only one of them is with the truth. This is part of test of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Edited by Abu Nur
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6 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

They inteprate it as to take care of the prophet family, for they do not believe that it is meant to follow them and obey them. It will also contradict with their belief system that prophet did not leave successor. 

There have always been two different ways who disagree with each other, and only one of them is with the truth. This is part of test of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

I mean both interpretations sounds valid when you look at it without bias?

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35 minutes ago, seekingthebeloved said:

I mean both interpretations sounds valid when you look at it without bias?

It is not valid at all. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have  promised that he will send a prophet like musa who will bring new book and new ummah. Does it make any sense that God will leave that new ummah without a divine leader where he supported bani isreal with divine leaders after musa? Read Quran how many times God gave succession and protecting of his religion but then He stopped it with our Prophet? 

If you ask the family of the prophet and their followers they will say that God gave succession of Muhammad (saws) to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Of course his opponents will say different. The reason why there is two groups tells you that there is something about the succession that some disagree and other agree and others don't care. 

This same happened with God choosing talut as king and majority did not accept it. 

 

Edited by Abu Nur
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On 9/18/2018 at 12:23 PM, Notperfectmuslim said:

Salaam

I am a Shia Muslim but lately I have been doubting our sect due to my lack of knowledge during ashura which is draining my faith. Yes I 100% believe in the ahlul bayt but I feel as though bidah is being done by creators of shiaism:

The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) told us that: “Every innovation is going astray, and every going astray will be in the Fire.” Narrated by Muslim (867) and an-Nasaa’i (1578) 

Please justify for me why cursing the sahabas , mourning for imam Hussain, beating the chest is allowed which I see as innovation.

Thank you please answer and back up statements I believe in the Quran and ahlul bayt and not surprised by the corruption then as it is relevant today.

Please justify for me why cursing the enemies of Islam, mourning for ones father or mother or relative, and in that mourning maybe you slap your knee or beat your chest is allowed which you see as innovation? 

Same reason.....

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On 10/20/2021 at 6:25 AM, seekingthebeloved said:

Why isn’t this Hadith taken with the level of importance by Sunnis, as it is with Shias? As in, why does the Hadith about the Quran and sunnah being the two weighty things given precedence for Sunnis? Is it to do with level of Authenticity?

I believe it’s the level of meaning. Which falls under authenticity. 
 

Shias have took ahlul bayt greater than what Sunnis believe they are. 
Every Sunni that prays, prays for the prophet and his family 2 times per prayer, at the minimum. 
 

Allah never spoke that we needed Ahlul Bayt the way Shias Need them, nor did Allah in the Quran tell muhammad to tell us that we need them the way Shias need them. So the authenticity is a factor if muhammad said that, and if he did to some extent. Sunnis don’t believe they are needed to that extent that Shias believe. As the Quran has stated already by Allah that Allahs words in the Quran are already enough. So to say muhammad said the hadith is a requirement is highly unlikely especially since he isn’t around to prove what normal HUMANS have claimed that he said. 

8 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

hey inteprate it as to take care of the prophet family, for they do not believe that it is meant to follow them and obey them. It will also contradict with their belief system that prophet did not leave successor

I did not know Shias believe that a successor was a belief. I thought it was more of a conflict of who’s right and who’s wrong as to who lead Islam after the prophet. Can your explain more to me? Is that what you meant? Because it’s obvious the prophet is the last and final prophet and messenger. So can you confirm that it’s a belief or did I misunderstand?

 

29 minutes ago, root said:

Please justify for me why cursing the enemies of Islam, mourning for ones father or mother or relative, and in that mourning maybe you slap your knee or beat your chest is allowed which you see as innovation? 

Same reason.....

Because it’s a cultural tradition and has 0 to do with religion. 

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I did not know Shias believe that a successor was a belief. I thought it was more of a conflict of who’s right and who’s wrong as to who lead Islam after the prophet. Can your explain more to me? Is that what you meant? Because it’s obvious the prophet is the last and final prophet and messenger. So can you confirm that it’s a belief or did I misunderstand?

Yes, it is part of the belief of Shia Muslims, because of the event of Ghadir, where the Prophet stated that whomever I'm the master, Ali is his master. This is itself an indication of succession in leadership and guidance (not prophethood and messenger hood), because Ali (عليه السلام) became the master of all the believers at that day after Prophet. It is even interesting that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in authentic Sunni narration in one of his sermon bears witness to this event when some people started to doubt his khilafa. Insha'Allah I try to find it when I have more time.

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47 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

Because it’s a cultural tradition and has 0 to do with religion. 

Mourning someones death is cultural? The way the public mourns is cultural yes, and noone said its part of religion or a religious act. It's neither usul or furu.

 

Cursing the enemies of Islam is an act of religion, as it is also on the Quran.

 

You aren't really making a strong case, and i suspect you aren't even a shia. Just figured you could start a debate using that angle, but it's an old and used up trick. Better to be honest.

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3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Yes, it is part of the belief of Shia Muslims, because of the event of Ghadir, where the Prophet stated that whomever I'm the master, Ali is his master. This is itself an indication of succession in leadership and guidance (not prophethood and messenger hood), because Ali (عليه السلام) became the master of all the believers at that day after Prophet. It is even interesting that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in authentic Sunni narration in one of his sermon bears witness to this event when some people started to doubt his khilafa. Insha'Allah I try to find it when I have more time.

Ok if I had 1.6 billions Muslim to understand that Imam Ali was indeed as you said the person who ran the show after the prophet passed, what will that changed?

 

for me, religiously nothing. For you nothing. For 1.6 billion Muslims nothing. 
it was a debate is not our debate as Muslims pleasing Allah. Imam Ali died for Islam. For Allah. For fellow Muslims. Allah will judge the wrong ones. This is not our business. Nor does Ali guide you today in anyway, he guided those Muslims he was with during his life. 
 

I hope you see my point. 
 

sunnis quote Imam Ali all the time at the Friday prayer. No need for the hadith. It’s logical Imam Ali was one of the greatest. But this is not My business or any Muslims today. If it is, then explain please. Thank

2 hours ago, root said:

Mourning someones death is cultural? The way the public mourns is cultural yes, and noone said its part of religion or a religious act. It's neither usul or furu.

 

Cursing the enemies of Islam is an act of religion, as it is also on the Quran.

 

You aren't really making a strong case, and i suspect you aren't even a shia. Just figured you could start a debate using that angle, but it's an old and used up trick. Better to be honest

I’m not Shia, nor Sunni (since you want honesty …) Lol 

 

today many Shia Muslims believe it be part of their religious duties to mourn Hussains death, harm themselves, etc. 

the problem with practicing traditions that don’t have anything to do with Islam is that it helps corrupt Allahs message. Which fails the prophets, and all the imams. Imam hussain would be disappointed in today’s actions to mourn him. 
 

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On 10/22/2021 at 3:43 AM, Guest Guest said:

Ok if I had 1.6 billions Muslim to understand that Imam Ali was indeed as you said the person who ran the show after the prophet passed, what will that changed?

If they reject it after they understand it is the truth then they become kafirs. If they accept it after understanding as truth they will be believers. If they don't accept it because they do not recognize the truth they are muslim and God will judge them in day of judgement and will not be in the state of those who recognize the truth and accept it. 

So yes, it is that serious that you take it very lightly. As have been seen by your post, you belittle the religion of Islam. This is because you really have no understanding of it at all. 

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57 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

If they reject it after they understand it is the truth then they become kafirs. If they accept it after understanding as truth they will be believers. If they don't accept it because they do not recognize the truth they are muslim and God will judge them in day of judgement and will not be in the state of those who recognize the truth and accept it. 

So yes, it is that serious that you take it very lightly. As have been seen by your post, you belittle the religion of Islam. This is because you really have no understanding of it at all. 

One stated before, I forgot who, but he said the pillars of Shia Islam is Imamah as one of them. That’s the different fe between you and I. 

You have added on to Islam to say what you claim. 
 

islam was before you and I. 
before Ali. 
before Muhammad
before essa

before musa

before Ibrahim

 

don’t come and make such a claim that one will be a kafir because he does not accept Imam Ali as a successor. 
 

i told you I do, but for the sake of the argument, NOW I don’t. Not because of stubborness, but to prove that it will make no difference to my life as a Muslim. 
 

im sorry, but you don’t understand Islam. Islam is logical, and you just added on a new feature that not one Prophet of Allah preached, or made important to Islam? So how can you make such a claim? Who are you?

where is your proof? If you had I would believe. But you will gather 100s of hadiths to make your point, and even then it’s based on faith without proof. 
 

I can gather 100 children books that will prove how irrational your claim is!! But that would only be my interpretation. Not fact. Just as you are doing. 

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Salam & thanks from @Cool

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(فالصبر رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) والصلاة إقامة ولايتي، 

Translation of bolded phrase:

"Patience is the Messenger of God (may God bless him and his family and grant them peace) and prayer is the establishment of my mandate (wilayah of Amir ul Mo'mineen)"

:) I don't know the grading of this narration, but interestingly, it is mentioning the hidden meanings of Sabr & Salah. 

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1457_بحار-الأنوار-العلامة-المجلسي-ج-٢٦/الصفحة_4#top

Our Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is also mentioned as the bearer of exalted moral character (68:4) and according to a hadith of Bihar al Anwar, the very being of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is mentioned as Sabr:

If Sabr (Patience) is the very being of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) , then a Sabir (Patient) is the one who exercise the very moral character of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

And if we keep in mind this hidden interpretation, the "isti'anah" with sabr and salah, gives us a different meaning. 

 

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On 10/22/2021 at 4:13 AM, Guest Guest said:

Ok if I had 1.6 billions Muslim to understand that Imam Ali was indeed as you said the person who ran the show after the prophet passed, what will that changed?

 

for me, religiously nothing. For you nothing. For 1.6 billion Muslims nothing. 
it was a debate is not our debate as Muslims pleasing Allah. Imam Ali died for Islam. For Allah. For fellow Muslims. Allah will judge the wrong ones. This is not our business. Nor does Ali guide you today in anyway, he guided those Muslims he was with during his life. 
 

I hope you see my point. 
 

sunnis quote Imam Ali all the time at the Friday prayer. No need for the hadith. It’s logical Imam Ali was one of the greatest. But this is not My business or any Muslims today. If it is, then explain please. Thank

Salam all of your logic is in similar fashion of all Wahabi/Salafist in every social forum which call themselves as Sunnis but on the other hand they have grudge of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) & so consequently  their followers  by accusing  them to worshiping  them & giving more status to them than beloved Sahabis according  to definition  of  Wahabists & Salafists from Sahabas /companions  which even according to authentic  & Sahih Sunni hadiths from  prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) enmity of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is main sign of hypocrites  & out of wedlock borned people .

Quote

Hadith 4

 
لَا يحبّني إلَّا مؤمن، وَلَا يَبغضني إلَّا منَافق.

Only a believer loves me. And only a munafiq (hypocrite) dislikes me.

 
This hadith is authentically transmitted from ‘Ali and Salman radiya Llahu ‘anhuma. The other chains of transmission from Umm Salamah, ‘Imran ibn Hussain, ‘Abdullah ibn Hantab, Abu Dharr, Abu Sa’id al Khudri, Ibn Mas’ud, and al Baraʾ ibn ‘Azib radiya Llahu ‘anhum are all da’if (unreliable).

 
The Hadith of ‘Ali

 
عن عليّ رضي الله عنه قال: والّذي فلق الحبّة وبرأ النّسمة إنّه لعهد النّبيّ الأمّيّ صلى الله عليه وسلم إلىّ أن لا يحبّني إلاّ مؤمن، ولا يبغضني إلاّ منافق‏.

(Narrated) from ‘Ali radiya Llahu ‘anhu who said, “By Him Who split up the grain and created life, the unlettered Prophet’s salla Llahu ‘alayhi wa sallam promise to me was that no one except a believer would love me, and no one except a munafiq (hypocrite) would dislike me.”[1]

 
Imam al Tirmidhi said, “This hadith is Hassan sahih (fair and authentic).” Imam al Baghawi, Ibn al Jazari, and Ibn Hibban have all authenticated this hadith. The apparent implications of Imam Ahmed’s statements suggest that he (too) has authenticated this hadith.

 
The Hadith of Salman

 
عن أبي زيد سعيد بن أوس الأنصاريّ، ثنا عوف عن أبي عثمان النّهديّ، قال: قال رجل لسلمان: ما أشدّ حبّك لعليّ؟ قال: سمعت رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم يقول: “من أحبّ عليّا فقد أحبّني، ومن أبغض عليّا فقد أبغضني.”

(Narrated) from Abu ‘Uthman al Nahdi who said, “A man said to Salman, ‘How extreme is your love for ‘Ali!?’

He responded, ‘I heard the Messenger of Allah salla Llahu ‘alayhi wa sallam saying, ‘Whosoever loves ‘Ali, loves me. And whosoever dislikes ‘Ali, dislikes me.’”[2]

 

Quote

Sahih Muslim, hadith no. 78.

[2] Al Hakim al Naisaburi: Mustadrak al Hakim, hadith no. 4648; Al Shajari: Al Amali, 1/656.

[3] Imam al Nawawi: Sharh Sahih Muslim, 2/64.

[4] Ibn Rajab: Fath al Bari, 1/66.

[5] Al Mubarakpuri: Tuhfat al Ahwadhi, 10/164.

https://mahajjah.com/hadith-4-only-a-believer-loves-me-and-only-a-munafiq-hypocrite-dislikes-me/

Quote

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said, A hypocrite’s tongue pleases but his heart causes harm.

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said, A hypocrite’s words are beautiful but his actions are a painful malady.

https://hadith.academyofislam.com/?q=hypocrites

Quote

 Faith is free of hypocrisy
Source: 10476 - Ghurar Al-Hikam Wa Durar Al-Kalim, Exalted Aphorisms And Pearls Of Speech
Hypocrisy corrupts [one’s] faith
Source: 10475 - Ghurar Al-Hikam Wa Durar Al-Kalim, Exalted Aphorisms And Pearls Of Speech


The example of the hypocrite is that of a colocynth, its leaves are green but its taste is bitter
Source: 10481 - Ghurar Al-Hikam Wa Durar Al-Kalim, Exalted Aphorisms And Pearls Of Speech

He (‘a) described the hypocrites thus: they are jealous of [those in] comfort, intensify [the] distress [of the distressed] and destroy hopes [of the hopeful]Their fallen victims are lying on every path, they have means to approach every heart and they have false tears for every [occasion of] grief
Source: 10482 - Ghurar Al-Hikam Wa Durar Al-Kalim, Exalted Aphorisms And Pearls Of Speech

http://www.imamali.co/s/176/e

Quote

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has said:
"I advise you, `O' creatures of Allah, to fear Allah and I warn you of the hypocrites...." (Nahjul-Balagha, Sermon No. 194)

There are three qualities in a man that make him a hypocrite, even if he fasts, prays and considers himself to be a Muslim. A hypocrite is:
1- One who betrays trust.
2- One who lies while talking.
3- One who promises and breaches his promise.
Certainly such people have a trace of hypocrisy in them. Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (عليه السلام) is reported to have said:
"Riya and pretension is a bitter and ominous tree whose fruit is nothing but hidden shirk and whose roots are hypocrisy." (Nahjul Fasahah, p.2, No.7)

http://www.imamreza.net/old/eng/imamreza.php?id=4317

Quote

Hypocrisy
Hypocrites can be identified by the following characteristics:
They say peace but mean war.
Their nourishment is false allegations.
Their generosity is being dishonest.
They keep their distance due to arrogance.
They do not wish anybody well.
They sleep like a log at night and create furor during the day.
They have no respect for the mosque, and present themselves in it at the end of the prayer or worship.

https://www.al-islam.org/anecdotes-ahlul-bayt-murtadha-mutahhari/few-quotes-imam-ali

https://www.quora.com/O-Ali-Only-a-believer-will-love-you-and-only-a-hypocrite-will-hate-you-How-would-we-categorize-the-sahabas-who-fought-with-Ali

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