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In the Name of God بسم الله

Obeying husband

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Salam aleykom, 

What does it really mean that a woman must obey her husband? 

Being intimate and not leaving the house are the examples commonly mentioned. 

Can a husband forbid his wife to leave the house without a valid reason? What if he bases that decision/order on jealousy that has no ground? Must the wife still obey? 

Are there other circumstances where the wife must obey her husband? What are those? 

 

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2 hours ago, Carlzone said:

Salam aleykom, 

What does it really mean that a woman must obey her husband? 

Being intimate and not leaving the house are the examples commonly mentioned. 

Can a husband forbid his wife to leave the house without a valid reason? What if he bases that decision/order on jealousy that has no ground? Must the wife still obey? 

Are there other circumstances where the wife must obey her husband? What are those? 

 

According to Sayyed Al-Sistani he has the right to forbid her leaving the house unconditionally, so even without any reason.

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13 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

According to Sayyed Al-Sistani he has the right to forbid her leaving the house unconditionally, so even without any reason.

Oh my God. That is shocking. 

What if she wants to visit her family or go to the mosque? Keeping silat al rahm and seeking islamic knowledge are emphasized in Islam right, or is his word superior to that as well? 

Can a woman get a divorce from her husband if she's not happy with being a prisoner?

And is there anything else she must obey according to Sayyid Sistani?

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16 minutes ago, Carlzone said:

Oh my God. That is shocking. 

What if she wants to visit her family or go to the mosque? Keeping silat al rahm and seeking islamic knowledge are emphasized in Islam right, or is his word superior to that as well? 

Can a woman get a divorce from her husband if she's not happy with being a prisoner?

And is there anything else she must obey according to Sayyid Sistani?

No, he can't stop her from Silat Rahim. That is an exception to the rule.

She can ask the husband to divorce her.

I don't believe there is anything else she has to obey.

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7 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

No, he can't stop her from Silat Rahim. That is an exception to the rule.

She can ask the husband to divorce her.

I don't believe there is anything else she has to obey.

What if he doesn't want to divorce her? Is it a valid reason to get a divorce from a judge?

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5 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Dont think so

What are the valid reasons to get a divorce from her husband then? 

There must be a way out. 

What if being married to him deteriorates her health in a serious way? For instance it gets so bad that she needs medical care because of being married to him. 

Edited by Carlzone
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5 hours ago, Carlzone said:

What if he doesn't want to divorce her? Is it a valid reason to get a divorce from a judge?

You can ask for the right to divorce when entering the marriage as far as I know.

Anyways, any marriage where the man or the women have to enforce their religious duties on each other is already a questionable marriage to begin with. 

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Just now, IbnSina said:

You can ask for the right to divorce when entering the marriage as far as I know.

Anyways, any marriage where the man or the women have to enforce their religious duties on each other is already a questionable marriage to begin with. 

But I have heard that the right to divorce is never definite for the woman even when the husband agrees to it from the beginning and it is put in the contract. The explanation was that in order for her to be able to divorce herself, he must make her his...I don't remember the term...like representative or something in the issue of divorce, and that this can be revoked by him during their marriage, which then leaves the woman with no right to divorce herself. 

I agree with you, but I know cases of men who are known to be from good families who turned out to be extremely jealous and didn't even allow the girl to visit the mosque. So it doesn't always show in the beginning unfortunately. 

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5 hours ago, forte said:

 

Imam Muhammad Baqir (‘a) has stated:

عن أبی جعفر (ع) قال: جاءت امرأة إلی النبیّ (ص) فقالت: یا رسول الله! ما حق الزوج علی المرأة؟ فقال لها: «أن تطیعه، و لا تعصیه، و لا تصدّق من بیته إلّا بإذنه، و لا تصوم تطوّعاً إلّا بإذنه، و لا تمنعه نفسها و إن کانت علی ظهر قتب، و لا تخرج من بیتها إلّا بإذنه.»

A woman came to the Prophet (S) and said, ‘O Messenger of Allah! What are the rights of men upon their wives?’ He replied, ‘She must obey him and not be disobedient. She must not give charity from his house without his permission. She must not perform voluntary fasts without his permission. She must not deny him her body, even if she is on the back of a camel. And she must not exit her home without his permission. https://www.al-islam.org/sv/node/34874

You are agreeing to this when you marry, so how could it be reason for a divorce? 

Yes, but I want to know more specifically what obeying the husband means and includes. We already know about intimacy and of not leaving the house. But there seems to be exceptions from this, like when visiting her family. I want to know what the other exceptions are. What does he have the right to ask from her and what does he not? I'll give an example. If the husband says go clean the kitchen. That is not wajib for a woman to do so even if he asks her to do it.

 

Well if the guy turns out to be extremely jealous and unreasonable without a reason and imprisons his wife, that is not normal and not a pleasant life for the average woman, and therefore she might want to leave him. I have seen such cases and the women are much happier when they leave him and marry someone better. 

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.

11 hours ago, forte said:

 

Imam Muhammad Baqir (‘a) has stated:

 

7 hours ago, Anonymous2144 said:

@hasanhh would Agree with me this makes marriage look like a burden for women. 

There is a hadith saying that a husband cannot forbid his wife from going to the mosque, but l must be entering the wrong search words so l can reference it.

I did find this one about a husband forbidding a wife from fulfilling a vow yet she is still obligated to fulfill it. Malik's Muwatta, Book #22, Hadith 22.6.11 found at searchtruth.com  from the search words woman+forbid+mosque .

Anonymous2144, rather than go through all these kinds of "discussions" (arguments) you can see why -as l have posted elsewhere- you can see why l advocate for advances in Artificial lnteIIigence and use this for domestic applications.

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3 hours ago, Natsu said:

And that is why you should seek a righteous man

Of course, Natsu. But it's impossible to be 100% sure. I've seen horrible cases where no one would have expected such things to happen. 

Edited by Carlzone
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9 hours ago, Carlzone said:

What are the valid reasons to get a divorce from her husband then? 

Marriage under false pretenses, abandonment, inability to function sexually. Possibly insanity, I'm not sure. For any of these, she can appeal to a scholar to intervene if her husband will not agree to divorce. There is also khula if it has gotten to the point that she finds her husband to be disgusting. 

In general, divorce is never in the hands of the wife. Either she asks her husband and he agrees, or she asks a scholar to intervene with her husband on her behalf to get her husband to agree to divorce her.

It is haram for a husband to oppress his wife. Marriage is ideally a contract and a commitment to protect and respect each other, not just to live together and produce children. 

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23 hours ago, notme said:

There is also khula if it has gotten to the point that she finds her husband to be disgusting. 

This could be relevant here as an imprisoned woman most likely will find him disgusting. 

I'm also interested in what applies in case the woman becomes sick physically because of her husband, for instance stops eating and it goes so far that she has to be taken to the hospital. 

23 hours ago, notme said:

Marriage under false pretenses, abandonment, inability to function sexually. 

I know women in such conditions and still it seems difficult for them to get a divorce even after contacting mosques. It's like a long battle they have to get through and not all women have that energy to fight.

So a woman can get a divorce if her husband is/becomes impotent? 

I know another exception: If the man can't get the woman pregnant and she wants kids. That happened to one of my cousins. She divorced him and married another man and has three kids now alhamdolillah. 

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I have heard cases in my local community where the man literally imprisoned his wife by locking the doors. There are animals who hide behind a few narrations, forgetting any type of common sense and respect. There is something called human rights. If someone did that to my own sister, I would honestly punch him in the face fee sabeel Allah, because he is clearly putting her in danger by locking the doors (something gets on fire, she gets sick, whatever).

You want to obey your husband? Cool. But make sure that is ALWAYS a personal choice, not an obligation.

In the other hand, islamically speaking, jealousy in men is a good trait, but one shall be cautious it doesn't reach unjust extremes.

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1 minute ago, Carlzone said:

I'm also interested in what applies in case the woman becomes sick physically because of her husband, for instance stops eating and it goes so far that she has to be taken to the hospital. 

Preventing his sick wife from seeking necessary medical care would be haram. 

A woman should be careful who she marries, because even if her husband is a psychopath, Islamic scholars who can order him to divorce her or divorce her from him on his behalf are very reluctant to act without proof, and proof of what goes on behind closed doors is difficult to produce. 

Actually, even non-Muslim women need to be very careful about who they marry. Divorce is probably the last thing on the mind of a woman wanting to protect herself and her children from harm by a psychopath. A Muslim woman can leave (no need for permission) to protect her own life or the lives of her children. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's obligatory. 

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2 minutes ago, Bakir said:

I have heard cases in my local community where the man literally imprisoned his wife by locking the doors. There are animals who hide behind a few narrations, forgetting any type of common sense and respect. There is something called human rights. If someone did that to my own sister, I would honestly punch him in the face fee sabeel Allah, because he is clearly putting her in danger by locking the doors (something gets on fire, she gets sick, whatever).

You want to obey your husband? Cool. But make sure that is ALWAYS a personal choice, not an obligation.

In the other hand, islamically speaking, jealousy in men is a good trait, but one shall be cautious it doesn't reach unjust extremes.

Yeah, I know such cases too from people you would never expect it from, like "good" known families. 

Too much jealousy without a valid reason is not good. Moderate jealousy on the other hand is a good trait in a man.

The problem here is that you can never know the person you marry completely before marrying them. There was a girl in the neighbourhood who married a man and everything seemed fine until the wedding where he ripped of her "hijab" and said "now that your mine I don't want you to wear hijab". Her father became outraged and eventually they managed to get her divorced from him and she happily married someone else. My point is that no one would have expected this to happen. He had hid it well until "she was his". 

Well, one must know the boundaries of ones wajibaat and what one must and musn't do according to the sharia and how to protect oneself from the horrors that one has seen others experience. 

I think we have a hadith that states that a woman is her husband's prisoner. 

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9 minutes ago, notme said:

A woman should be careful who she marries, because even if her husband is a psychopath, Islamic scholars who can order him to divorce her or divorce her from him on his behalf are very reluctant to act without proof, and proof of what goes on behind closed doors is difficult to produce. 

And psychopaths are masters of deceit. They make the outer world believe they are angels and that they are the victims of a disobedient wife. Even the wife will not now at first that she married a psychopath. 

There are personality tests though that can show this most of the time. Regular women will not have access to such tests unfortunately. 

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Salam, 

These laws must be understood in proper context. 

Husbands must not use aggressive or violent means to control their wives. Or better yet, husbands must not, in any way, control their wives. 

These laws are for wives to follow. Wives are autonomous conscious adults. They have a God-given free will. They can choose to obey God's precepts or not. 

A husband's duty is to bring faith and keep taqwa within his family. In other words, ultimately, a husband must strive to ensure that his family seeks and finds guidance torwads Allah. Aggressive behaviour, verbal aggression, and violence will result in the opposite; broken families and distance amongst loved ones, and ultimately, weakening of faith. 

It is important to realize that, as far as I know, we do not have a single authentic narration about any Imam (as) being aggressive towards any of his wives. 

Consider this: We're all commanded to obey God. However, we're not physically or aggressively forced to obey God. God doesn't interfere with our personal autonomy. Similarly, a husband should not interfere with his wife's autonomy. A husband can remind her of God's precepts. But ultimately, a husband must be loving and merciful. As a result of his love and mercy, a wife will, likely, strengthen her faith. And the stronger her faith, the more llikely it is for her to be obedient to her husband. 

Don't treat your wives like children or, worse, like animals. They are intelligent autonomous human adults with perceptive hearts. 

 

Edited by SoRoUsH
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On 9/16/2018 at 5:17 AM, Carlzone said:

But I have heard that the right to divorce is never definite for the woman even when the husband agrees to it from the beginning and it is put in the contract. The explanation was that in order for her to be able to divorce herself, he must make her his...I don't remember the term...like representative or something in the issue of divorce, and that this can be revoked by him during their marriage, which then leaves the woman with no right to divorce herself. 

I agree with you, but I know cases of men who are known to be from good families who turned out to be extremely jealous and didn't even allow the girl to visit the mosque. So it doesn't always show in the beginning unfortunately. 

Theres always ways to abuse every system that has ever existed, thats the reality but Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is watching and the angels writing down ones deeds are writing. So if you marry a God conscious man he will be aware of this and not abuse you or the system.

My advise would be to have a longer engagement before getting permanently married and when I say engaged I dont mean the Iraqi version were its basically a permanent marriage where people around you expect you to no be physical even if its the right of the husband in such a case. I would say make a temporary marriage even if for 1 year with restriction on physical touching and get to know each other as much as possible during that time. 

Even after all that time there is still a risk but we have to have tawakull that things will be alright after we have done all the investigation we can.

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5 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Salam, 

These laws must be understood in proper context. 

Husbands must not use aggressive or violent means to control their wives. Or better yet, husbands must not, in any way, control their wives. 

These laws are for wives to follow. Wives are autonomous conscious adults. They have a God-given free will. They can choose to obey God's precepts or not. 

A husband's duty is to bring faith and keep taqwa within his family. In other words, ultimately, a husband must strive to ensure that his family seeks and finds guidance torwads Allah. Aggressive behaviour, verbal aggression, and violence will result in the opposite; broken families and distance amongst loved ones, and ultimately, weakening of faith. 

It is important to realize that, as far as I know, we do not have a single authentic narration about any Imam (as) being aggressive towards any of his wives. 

Consider this: We're all commanded to obey God. However, we're not physically or aggressively forced to obey God. God doesn't interfere with our personal autonomy. Similarly, a husband should not interfere with his wife's autonomy. A husband can remind her of God's precepts. But ultimately, a husband must be loving and merciful. As a result of his love and mercy, a wife will, likely, strengthen her faith. And the stronger her faith, the more llikely it is for her to be obedient to her husband. 

Don't treat your wives like children or, worse, like animals. They are intelligent autonomous human adults with perceptive hearts. 

 

Thank you for your reply! 

Your way of thinking is that of a reasonable Godfearing man, God bless you, unfortunately not all men are like that. And some even actively hide this before permanent marriage. 

I agree with everything you wrote except what I marked in bold. If a woman is Godfearing and knows that her husband islamically has the right to decide whether she goes out or not, she will obey even if he is abusing the system. Probably, she will eventually want to divorce him if he keeps up this unreasonable behaviour and therefore it's important to know how and what the valid reasons for divorce are and perhaps even ask for the right to divorce from the beginning even if the husband probably can revoke it during the marriage and if she has married a psychopath he will abuse that opportunity if he knows about it. Also, unfortunately we have sheiks in our community who try to talk women out of asking for the right to divorce from the beginning. I have seen a famous sheikh do this with my own eyes. He says that a woman should not walk into a marriage "knowing that she can get out" because this increases the risk for divorce. Although I see his point I don't think this is fair as the woman is in a very vulnerable position in marriage, whereas a man doesn't have as much to fear from a woman. 

 

By the way, obviously our maraje3 are very good pious men MashaAllah, but I wonder why they allow the man to have so much power over his wife, when this can be abused really badly? And I'm sure they know that there are quite a few men who abuse this? What is the explanation for giving men so much power over their wives?

Edited by Carlzone
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1 hour ago, Carlzone said:

What is the explanation for giving men so much power over their wives?

Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has given more rights to the man than the women, you think thats a good thing for men but its not necessarily so. More rights = more responsibility = more accountability. 

Explanation is that men and women are not the same and that does not mean one is better than the other but that we have different qualities and Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى knows best who is more suited for what.

For example: GENERALLY speaking women are more prone to be affected by their emotions when it comes to decision making with regards to right and wrong and this is not always a good thing as it can cloud ones judgement. Also most women have a higher emotional intellect which makes it easier to manipulate people if they want to.

And for example if a man is completely disconnected emotionally from his decision making then that can also be formed over time into someone without mercy and empathy for others. Which could be the case when a man decides to physically lock the doors on the house so his wife cannot leave. 

Both genders have strengths and weaknesses and some times the strengths can become ones weaknesses. 

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6 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has given more rights to the man than the women, you think thats a good thing for men but its not necessarily so. More rights = more responsibility = more accountability. 

Explanation is that men and women are not the same and that does not mean one is better than the other but that we have different qualities and Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى knows best who is more suited for what.

For example: GENERALLY speaking women are more prone to be affected by their emotions when it comes to decision making with regards to right and wrong and this is not always a good thing as it can cloud ones judgement. Also most women have a higher emotional intellect which makes it easier to manipulate people if they want to.

And for example if a man is completely disconnected emotionally from his decision making then that can also be formed over time into someone without mercy and empathy for others. Which could be the case when a man decides to physically lock the doors on the house so his wife cannot leave. 

Both genders have strengths and weaknesses and some times the strengths can become ones weaknesses. 

Yes, I agree with you. Men carry great burdens islamically. I don't envy them. A woman can basically be a princess if she wants to while the man has so much responsibility on his shoulders. 

I'm honestly much more comfortable with men on power positions because I see exactly what you described regarding the genders. Of course there are exceptions but not many.

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8 hours ago, Carlzone said:

If a woman is Godfearing and knows that her husband islamically has the right to decide whether she goes out or not, she will obey even if he is abusing the system.

Salam, 

Sure. My point is, the choice is that of the wife. A husband shouldn't force his wife to do this or that. Using force or aggression, physical or verbal or emotional, will ultimately lead to a negative result. 

8 hours ago, Carlzone said:

but I wonder why they allow the man to have so much power over his wife, when this can be abused really badly?

All of our maraje' are men. More importantly, they are men in power. They are men who have the control of their followers' minds to a certain degree. They are men who reach their positions in societies run by men and with the support of, mostly, other men. An institution composed of men giving other men power and control ensures and guarantees its success and survival. 

Human psychology and biology matter. And only our Ahlul Bayt (as) are infallible. 

These are important facts to keep in mind and to include in the context of your deliberation. 

Interpretations and perspectives of religious texts that empower women and wives may not be helpful in safeguarding the status quo of a man-powered institution. 

Our best role models are the Ahlul Bayt (as). When we have questions regarding family or domestic affairs, we ought to look at their behaviors towards their families, including wives. 

Most people, I assume and hope, can't even imagine the Ahlul Bayt (as) being aggressive against their wives, let alone commanding aggression to their followers. 

Edited by SoRoUsH
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عَنْهُ عَنْ عُثْمَانَ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ فِي قَوْلِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ قُوا أَنْفُسَكُمْ وَ أَهْلِيكُمْ ناراً (التحريم -: 6 -) قُلْتُ كَيْفَ أَقِيهِمْ قَالَ تَأْمُرُهُمْ بِمَا أَمَرَ اللَّهُ وَ تَنْهَاهُمْ عَمَّا نَهَاهُمُ اللَّهُ فَإِنْ أَطَاعُوكَ كُنْتَ قَدْ وَقَيْتَهُمْ وَ إِنْ عَصَوْكَ كُنْتَ قَدْ قَضَيْتَ مَا عَلَيْكَ 

 

"... And if they disobeyed you, you have fulfilled your responsibility." 

This is important! The Imam (as) does not command us to force our family to obey us.  Ultimately, the choice is theirs whether to follow God's commands or not. Men/husbands ought not to force them.

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