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In the Name of God بسم الله
ShiaMan14

Observing Ashura together - globally

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Salaam,

I have heard some rumors that Ayatollah Sistani has issued a recommendation that all shias should observe Ashura on the same day as Karbala. 

Anyone else hear the same thing?

The image below is with reference to this. Can someone translate please?

Recommendation.png

 

@Ashvazdanghe

 

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6 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Salaam,

I have heard some rumors that Ayatollah Sistani has issued a recommendation that all shias should observe Ashura on the same day as Karbala. 

Anyone else hear the same thing?

The image below is with reference to this. Can someone translate please?

Recommendation.png

 

@Ashvazdanghe

 

Questions :

1.Are  other months -except Shawal & Ramadan- have flexibility that we can start Lunar month with one day after or before or that day?

2.Acording to start of month of Muharam , is it true that Ashura day helds in same day ,in name of other centers in our local area ,even if they use other calculation methods...(except than your Fatwa) for determining the new moon ?

3.a group of people believe that your highness Shias around the world remember Ashura ceremony in that day at Karbala, is it true?

4.in any reason , if we declare start of Muharam for unity, is it necessary that we announce it to everybody to be sure that their Nazr (religious oath), in case of existence , in real calendar date , not announced date , becomes effective?

 

Answers:

1-The sharia measure for start of lunar month for all months is same & there is no difference between month of Ramadan ,Shawal & other months.

2-Accompanying with other Mumins of Europe for commemorating  of ceremony of Tasua & Ashura  fine but for doing religious oaths & other same stuff the Fiqhi ruling of fixty  of month must considers .

3-It's not true at all.

4-if you announce one day sooner first decade of Muharam  or other days of this month for unity with other Muminin of Europe ,you most announce it completely clear in order too that everyone that has wajibat on his shoulder do not commit mistake & can observe its sharia ruling for doing that works.

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3 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

The date may differ but the recommendation of the sayyed is that the commemorations should take place on the same day. 

This isn't something new, the same advice was given in previous years as well. 

Wallahu a'lam 

Salaam. 

For my understanding, it could be 11 Muharram in US and 10 Muharram in Karbala so we are recommended to observe Ashura on 11Muh in US?

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Salaam. 

For my understanding, it could be 11 Muharram in US and 10 Muharram in Karbala so we are recommended to observe Ashura on 11Muh in US?

Walaikum as salam brother. Yes the idea is that everyone commemorates ashura together. 

Of course if the entire US did it on the same day this might not be an issue. However sometimes people follow different dates within the same region. Therefore one common reference (in this instance Karbala) is used by all. 

It should be noted this isnt a case of changing the islamic date (which continues to be determined in the same manner as all other months) rather it is a practical way of unifying the day on which all the believers participate in Ashura ceremonies.

Wallahu a'lam 

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2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Walaikum as salam brother. Yes the idea is that everyone commemorates ashura together. 

Of course if the entire US did it on the same day this might not be an issue. However sometimes people follow different dates within the same region. Therefore one common reference (in this instance Karbala) is used by all. 

It should be noted this isnt a case of changing the islamic date (which continues to be determined in the same manner as all other months) rather it is a practical way of unifying the day on which all the believers participate in Ashura ceremonies.

Wallahu a'lam 

Thank you brother for explaining in detail.  Your other aamals remain on your calculated day. 

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1 hour ago, shiasoldier786 said:

Think this is for intra shia unity bro, as ashura is commemorated on different days by various centres according to the marja they follow.

I know, however every islamic occasion here is subject to division, and no one seems to be bothered, why placing the focus on Ashura in particular ? Looks like an Imamisation of the religion to me. My opinion, of course.

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32 minutes ago, realizm said:

I know, however every islamic occasion here is subject to division, and no one seems to be bothered, why placing the focus on Ashura in particular ? Looks like an Imamisation of the religion to me. My opinion, of course.

When it comes to eid you have a shar'i issue, i.e if it is the month of Ramadhan it is wajib to fast whereas if it is eid it is forbidden.

Regarding other islamic events, people tend to be pragmatic in the sense that there is flexibility in commemorating the event a day earlier or later (or sometimes even on the next weekend)

Not sure if this answers your question.

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5 hours ago, realizm said:

:salam:

Why be bothered about unity when most of the times they do not care about it ?

There is a always a time / place to start but this would not be it.

3 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

When it comes to eid you have a shar'i issue, i.e if it is the month of Ramadhan it is wajib to fast whereas if it is eid it is forbidden.

Regarding other islamic events, people tend to be pragmatic in the sense that there is flexibility in commemorating the event a day earlier or later (or sometimes even on the next weekend)

Not sure if this answers your question.

Call me old school but I can't bring myself to observe Ashura on Muh 9th or 11th.

Additionally, most shias (at least the ones I know) take off on Ashura. So now will we work on Muh 10 and take off on 9th/11th or take 2 days off.

This was brought because specifically in London, they observed 3 Ashuras. It makes sense that a country observing together or even a continent but to follow Karbala is a bit ridiculous to me.

Wallahu a'lam  indeed

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3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

There is a always a time / place to start but this would not be it.

Call me old school but I can't bring myself to observe Ashura on Muh 9th or 11th.

Additionally, most shias (at least the ones I know) take off on Ashura. So now will we work on Muh 10 and take off on 9th/11th or take 2 days off.

This was brought because specifically in London, they observed 3 Ashuras. It makes sense that a country observing together or even a continent but to follow Karbala is a bit ridiculous to me.

Wallahu a'lam  indeed

Brother its not so much about following Karbala. The idea was to have a common day, so Karbala was simply made a reference point. 

Anyway as it turns out the moon was visible in most parts of the world on monday night so this year most people will be commemorating Ashura on the 10th of muharram anyway.

Regarding work and commemorations, taking one extra day off is not a big sacrifice for someone who insists on commemorating ashura on the 10th, and by all means you can perform the amaal and hold gatherings for the imam (as) on that day too. 

Wallahu a'lam 

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19 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Brother its not so much about following Karbala. The idea was to have a common day, so Karbala was simply made a reference point. 

Anyway as it turns out the moon was visible in most parts of the world on monday night so this year most people will be commemorating Ashura on the 10th of muharram anyway.

Regarding work and commemorations, taking one extra day off is not a big sacrifice for someone who insists on commemorating ashura on the 10th, and by all means you can perform the amaal and hold gatherings for the imam (as) on that day too. 

Wallahu a'lam 

Call me a cynic but I see a day within the next 5 years where there will be a great fitna to observe Ashura on the closest weekend to Muh 10 instead of the actual day.

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4 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Call me a cynic but I see a day within the next 5 years where there will be a great fitna to observe Ashura on the closest weekend to Muh 10 instead of the actual day.

Maybe but I dont see how that is linked to the current recommendation which aims to avoid the situation where people commemorate Ashura on two or three different days in the same city. 

Wallahu a'lam

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On 9/11/2018 at 11:06 PM, Mahdavist said:

When it comes to eid you have a shar'i issue, i.e if it is the month of Ramadhan it is wajib to fast whereas if it is eid it is forbidden.

Regarding other islamic events, people tend to be pragmatic in the sense that there is flexibility in commemorating the event a day earlier or later (or sometimes even on the next weekend)

Not sure if this answers your question.

:salam:

Of course I had taken that point into consideration. 

But is it what we expect from our leaders in this time and age ? Give rulings on issues that are not even shar3i, and rather sectarian ? Why not focusing on shar3i issues and maybe reform them, especially when Sistanis are per se the most unconventional ones when it comes to celebrating occasions. 

I find this quite ironical and useless to be honest.

Edited by realizm

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7 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Maybe but I dont see how that is linked to the current recommendation which aims to avoid the situation where people commemorate Ashura on two or three different days in the same city. 

Wallahu a'lam

I guess that's where my issue lies.

Is this really a recommendation?

A recommendation would be "All shias SHOULD observe Ashura on the same day globally".

This letter is granting a reluctant permission to do something against the norm.

Additionally, instead of coming to an agreement on moon sighting criteria like in the US, they have gone down a route that will create more disunity in Europe. The Khoja community in Europe will observe Ashura on Thu while the rest of European shias will observe it on Friday. End result will be unified khojas but ununified shias across Europe. That defeats the purpose of this entire issue.

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21 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I guess that's where my issue lies.

Is this really a recommendation?

A recommendation would be "All shias SHOULD observe Ashura on the same day globally".

This letter is granting a reluctant permission to do something against the norm.

Additionally, instead of coming to an agreement on moon sighting criteria like in the US, they have gone down a route that will create more disunity in Europe. The Khoja community in Europe will observe Ashura on Thu while the rest of European shias will observe it on Friday. End result will be unified khojas but ununified shias across Europe. That defeats the purpose of this entire issue.

Ah, those Sistani followers :D

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4 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I guess that's where my issue lies.

Is this really a recommendation?

A recommendation would be "All shias SHOULD observe Ashura on the same day globally".

This letter is granting a reluctant permission to do something against the norm.

Additionally, instead of coming to an agreement on moon sighting criteria like in the US, they have gone down a route that will create more disunity in Europe. The Khoja community in Europe will observe Ashura on Thu while the rest of European shias will observe it on Friday. End result will be unified khojas but ununified shias across Europe. That defeats the purpose of this entire issue.

Actually pretty much everyone is doing it on Thursday in Europe. 

 

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4 hours ago, realizm said:

:salam:

Of course I had taken that point into consideration. 

But is it what we expect from our leaders in this time and age ? Give rulings on issues that are not even shar3i, and rather sectarian ? Why not focusing on shar3i issues and maybe reform them, especially when Sistanis are per se the most unconventional ones when it comes to celebrating occasions. 

I find this quite ironical and useless to be honest.

You cant just randomly reform a shar'i rule while claiming to derive it from Quran and hadith. 

The marja answers the question that is asked to him. Obviously on actual rules of fiqh he will follow what he has derived from the usual sources. When it comes to something that doesnt have strict shar'i implications then he has more flexibility to provide a practical guideline.

 

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3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Is all of Europe saying Thu is 9th or 10th?

Mostly 10th, but in the UK the chances of sighting the moon were lower than continental europe so for some it will be the 9th but they will still commemorate the day of Ashura on that day.

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11 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Mostly 10th, but in the UK the chances of sighting the moon were lower than continental europe so for some it will be the 9th but they will still commemorate the day of Ashura on that day.

Yup. UK and Scandinavia should be together...on Friday.

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3 hours ago, realizm said:

Why are khojas different than other Sistani followers?

This issue was raised by them and they are only ones doing this. 

To be candid, they are doing this for the unity of the Khoja community rather than the entire shia community.

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3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

This issue was raised by them and they are only ones doing this. 

To be candid, they are doing this for the unity of the Khoja community rather than the entire shia community.

That's not true. Pretty much all of sayed al sistanis followers are doing this because they sometimes have a one day lag in the islamic date compared to most other muqallideen. 

Not sure where you get your information from but in terms of europe its highly inaccurate. 

 

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10 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

That's not true. Pretty much all of sayed al sistanis followers are doing this because they sometimes have a one day lag in the islamic date compared to most other muqallideen. 

Not sure where you get your information from but in terms of europe its highly inaccurate. 

 

You can't say all Syed Sistani's followers are doing this because not all centers are doing this in UK.

 

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

You can't say all Syed Sistani's followers are doing this because not all centers are doing this in UK.

 

Its possible that a few aren't (cant say I have heard of them) but the vast majority of centers regardless of ethnicity or affiliations to any scholar will commemorate ashura on Thursday. 

 

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

Its possible that a few aren't (cant say I have heard of them) but the vast majority of centers regardless of ethnicity or affiliations to any scholar will commemorate ashura on Thursday. 

 

Just for my confirmation, a vast majority of centers in the UK recognize 10 Muh to be on Fri but will observe Ashura on Thu?

I am not concerned about Europe but they are saying 10Muh is Thu.

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