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Religion, Secularism, and Xenophobia

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2 hours ago, ireallywannaknow said:

Would the prophets and imams (pbut) befriend anyone, regardless of a weird appearance or not? Would they befriend people with eccentric lifestyles? Or were they selective as well? Not a rhetorical question, I'm really asking. 

I've never read anything either way. That's a very good question. 

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16 hours ago, Reza said:

I'd love to see this study conducted worldwide. I'm curious to know if this is a problem specific to any one group or religion. i.e. the study only surveyed members of the Christian faith in the U.S. & Europe. I'd love to know how Muslims (or any other religion for that matter) in any given specific area behave when it comes to something like this.

My theory is that most people that are overly religious are overly conservative to begin with anyway and vice versa. Conservatism and Religiosity go hand in hand. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you can't have one without the other. The more Conservative a person, the more Religion appeals to them due to the rigid rules and laws of that religion. A liberal mindset thinks outside that box and as such they may have the same amount of faith in their hearts but they won't be as rigid in their opinions.

Racism (and any other -ism as well) is nothing more than a reflection of the level of Conservatism that a person holds. The more racist a person is then the more conservative (and uneducated) they will be.

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16 hours ago, Reza said:

Cites two studies involving Christians in the US and Europe. Do you think this extends to Muslims as well, or is it different?

Full article here:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-secular-life/201807/religion-secularism-and-xenophobia

I believe this is true in general but not always. If I remember correctly some experiment has showed that minorities are less prejudiced than people who belong to the majority. Therefore I would guess that Muslims in the West are less prejudiced than Christians in the West, while Muslims in the east are probably more prejudiced. 

But I don't know. I'm speculating.

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I guess both religions have significant historical differences when it has come to tolerance, even though bigots nowaday (which are majority) have put Islam in a despicable position when it comes to racism, sexism, etc. Islam is seen commonly (and unjustly) as a religion against women's rights, but then you see important figures like Ibn Rushd speaking in favour of women's rights and active roles in society (economic, political and professional sphere) in the XII century (when women were still treated like animals in the rest of the world, if not worse).

An interesting quote for this topic is the one by Marmaduke Pickthall:

"In the eyes of history, religious toleration is the highest evidence of culture in a people. It was not until the Western nations broke away from their religious law that they became more tolerant, and it was only when the Muslims fell away from their religious law that they declined in tolerance and other evidences of the highest culture."

Sadly, Ibn Rushd and people like him are very few compared to the huge amount of braintards that are grouped under the term Ummah.

Edited by Bakir

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Certainly racism is wrong but being intolerant of sin and debauchery is a praiseworthy thing. We shouldn't be "open-minded" towards filth. Just read about the stories about the prophets (as) in the Quran, without a doubt by modern standards they were close minded intolerant bigots! 

Tolerance is really just a meaningless buzzword for liberals. You are only tolerated if you accept the liberal weltanschauung. So white liberals, brown liberals, and black liberals. Very diverse. Will a Muslim who actually says what the shariah is be tolerated? Most certainly not, just look what happened to Shaykh Hamza Sogadar for saying the Islamic ruling regarding the punishment for sodomites. 

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2 minutes ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Certainly racism is wrong but being intolerant of sin and debauchery is a praiseworthy thing. We shouldn't be "open-minded" towards filth. Just read about the stories about the prophets (as) in the Quran, without a doubt by modern standards they were close minded intolerant bigots! 

Tolerance is really just a meaningless buzzword for liberals. You are only tolerated if you accept the liberal weltanschauung. So white liberals, brown liberals, and black liberals. Very diverse. Will a Muslim who actually says what the shariah is be tolerated? Most certainly not, just look what happened to Shaykh Hamza Sogadar for saying the Islamic ruling regarding the punishment for sodomites. 

You are wrongly considering the Western society as tolerant, and the example given on the punishment for sodomy is an example of intolerance (the intolerance arosen by the imposition of political correctness).

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1 minute ago, Bakir said:

You are wrongly considering the Western society as tolerant, and the example given on the punishment for sodomy is an example of intolerance (the intolerance arosen by the imposition of political correctness).

Western society is typically the one who lays claim to tolerance the most and I'm saying its a meaningless claim. In reality western society only tolerates itself. Islam is very intolerant of men who have sex with men, considering the punishment is death. So what exactly is tolerance to you? Its hard to see how Islam is tolerant when it eradicated Arabian idolatry.

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13 minutes ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Western society is typically the one who lays claim to tolerance the most and I'm saying its a meaningless claim. In reality western society only tolerates itself. Islam is very intolerant of men who have sex with men, considering the punishment is death. So what exactly is tolerance to you? Its hard to see how Islam is tolerant when it eradicated Arabian idolatry.

Believing the punishment for belonging to a specific community is dead doesn't necessarily make you an intolerant person, there is more to it.

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Why does EVERY topic end up bringing up gays or sinners? Don’t you people get sick of it?

The study in the OP talked about “different race, ethnicity, religion, or country“, for those who didn’t bother to read it.

Stick to the topic please.

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1 hour ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Western society is typically the one who lays claim to tolerance the most and I'm saying its a meaningless claim. In reality western society only tolerates itself. Islam is very intolerant of men who have sex with men, considering the punishment is death. So what exactly is tolerance to you? Its hard to see how Islam is tolerant when it eradicated Arabian idolatry.

Tolerance is obviously on a scale and nobody is going to claim to be 100% tolerant because then you have chaos. There has to be some kind of balance and what the balance should be is debatable. I guess it's an aspirational concept. The widely held view in the West is that gays having sex is tolerated  and that executing gays is considered deranged and sick whereas in other countries the reverse is  true and killing them is tolerated. 

Here in Ireland the topic of secular education has been slightly controversial with some Christians lamenting the removal of schools from their control and the removal of religion from the curriculum. However I understand that the Muslim community are happy with it because it allows them freedom to teach their own beliefs without having others imposed on them or without Muslim children having to sit out the Christian content in religiously controlled schools. Society will not tolerate Muslims executing gay Muslims but it will tolerate them expressing opinions on the matter. Muslims here expressed their opposition to gay marriage. It was voted in anyway but Muslims are not obliged to attend the weddings or like it.

 

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5 hours ago, Reza said:

Why does EVERY topic end up bringing up gays or sinners? Don’t you people get sick of it?

The study in the OP talked about “different race, ethnicity, religion, or country“, for those who didn’t bother to read it.

Stick to the topic please.

It's just an example of religious intolerance. Religion is a good example since Islam only tolerates certain religions (Judaism, christianity,  and perhaps zoroastrianism to be exact), other religions arent tolerated. The prophet (sawa) forcefully eradicated jahili idolatrous practices as did the prophets before him. They didnt tolerate the "right" of idolaters to freedom of religious practice.

5 hours ago, Klanky said:

Tolerance is obviously on a scale and nobody is going to claim to be 100% tolerant because then you have chaos. There has to be some kind of balance and what the balance should be is debatable. I guess it's an aspirational concept. The widely held view in the West is that gays having sex is tolerated  and that executing gays is considered deranged and sick whereas in other countries the reverse is  true and killing them is tolerated. 

 

I'm aware, it just makes the whole concept of tolerance meaningless because only that which can fit into the liberal paradigm is accepted and tolerated. In other words the system tolerates itself. Same for other places only accepting what fits in their paradigm as it certainly isnt unique to liberalism.

7 hours ago, Bakir said:

Believing the punishment for belonging to a specific community is dead doesn't necessarily make you an intolerant person, there is more to it.

Saying someone should be put to death for "an action between two consenting adults" seems pretty intolerant bro.

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27 minutes ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

It's just an example of religious intolerance. Religion is a good example since Islam only tolerates certain religions (Judaism, christianity,  and perhaps zoroastrianism to be exact), other religions arent tolerated. The prophet (sawa) forcefully eradicated jahili idolatrous practices as did the prophets before him. They didnt tolerate the "right" of idolaters to freedom of religious practice

Did you read the study cited in the OP? Perhaps you didn’t. 

The study talks about tribalism and ethnocentrism among religious or secular people (based on a group studied in the US and Europe), and how suspicious or welcoming people are towards another group of people based on race, ethnicity, religion, or country.

Its not talking about one religion’s theological stance on another, a religion’s stance on “tolerating” practices or beliefs, or anything else than what’s stated above. This is stuff you added and conflated onto it. 

 

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6 hours ago, Klanky said:

Tolerance is obviously on a scale and nobody is going to claim to be 100% tolerant because then you have chaos. There has to be some kind of balance and what the balance should be is debatable. I guess it's an aspirational concept. The widely held view in the West is that gays having sex is tolerated  and that executing gays is considered deranged and sick whereas in other countries the reverse is  true and killing them is tolerated. 

Here in Ireland the topic of secular education has been slightly controversial with some Christians lamenting the removal of schools from their control and the removal of religion from the curriculum. However I understand that the Muslim community are happy with it because it allows them freedom to teach their own beliefs without having others imposed on them or without Muslim children having to sit out the Christian content in religiously controlled schools. Society will not tolerate Muslims executing gay Muslims but it will tolerate them expressing opinions on the matter. Muslims here expressed their opposition to gay marriage. It was voted in anyway but Muslims are not obliged to attend the weddings or like it.

 

That's the point I wanted to reach. Expressing one's discomfort with certain beliefs, ethnicities, etc. isn't necessarily intolerant. You may sound like a bigot, though.

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1 hour ago, Reza said:

Did you read the study cited in the OP? Perhaps you didn’t. 

The study talks about tribalism and ethnocentrism among religious or secular people (based on a group studied in the US and Europe), and how suspicious or welcoming people are towards another group of people based on race, ethnicity, religion, or country.

Its not talking about one religion’s theological stance on another, a religion’s stance on “tolerating” practices or beliefs, or anything else than what’s stated above. This is stuff you added and conflated onto it. 

 

I read the article. What I brought up is related to it. Strong in-group preference is related to not tolerating the other and specifically their practices. Islam neither tolerates shirk nor mushrikeen. Tribalism is a natural feature in human beings and religions like Islam and Christianity take this and apply it to believer vs disbeliever instead of it being a racial/ethnic thing. So it's the same core tribal mentality but applied to different things which would make sense why they are correlated with each other. That being intolerance towards other races and intolerance towards other religions being correlated with each other.

Edited by Shi3i_jadeed

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On 9/6/2018 at 10:18 PM, Akbar673 said:

My theory is that most people that are overly religious are overly conservative to begin with anyway and vice versa. Conservatism and Religiosity go hand in hand. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you can't have one without the other.

I think wrong type of Conservativeness is because lack of Knowledge in religious that is more common between people that inherit religion btw religious people have red lines in their life & must be conservative about it with knowledge of faith about it ,but being conservative because of ignorance is not acceptable by me.many of hatred between muslims is because of their ignorance because most of us don't research about religious matters many of Salafis insult shias because of what they heard from other people & they don't feel to find out truth from other means ,this is the same in shia side.

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On 9/7/2018 at 6:03 AM, Reza said:

Why does EVERY topic end up bringing up gays or sinners? Don’t you people get sick of it?

The study in the OP talked about “different race, ethnicity, religion, or country“, for those who didn’t bother to read it.

Stick to the topic please.

Virtue signaling is usually done to deflect attention from the sin in one's own life and the rationalization used to continue in it.

Homosexuality in the West didn't come about organically, there is a concentrated effort by Western elites in the entertainment industry to promote not even tolerance of it, but admiration and praise of it because it destroys the family and by destroying the family, people will seek comfort in consumerism and radical individualism with the added effect of reducing humans to interchangeable units of commodity.

That's why homosexuality and now "trans" sexuality is promoted as a fashionable way to rebel against your parents and "express yourself". It's become like what punk rock was in the late 70s and early 80s, and this makes me very sad because I see the effects of the "if it feels good, do it!" mentality all over my country in increased drug addiction, suicide, and mental illness rates.

Religion empowers people and gives them hope. American corporate totalitarianism can't have that & that's why anti-religious bigotry is the last acceptable bigotry in America.

Also: American liberals claim to be allies of Islam while promoting every manner of vice and perversion that they can. Not because they care about Muslims as faithful people, but because they see Islam as being inherently tied to being "brown", which by my limited understanding of Islam is the most absurd and ludicrous thing anyone could believe about it.

For instance: If I took shahada today on this forum and began living the best possible Muslim life I could tonight and continued on for the rest of my life, there would be a sizeable number (probably a majority) of American liberals who would treat me with derision and disregard because I am white and am thus "culturally appropriating to try and take something away from brown people" (I am not kidding, this is absolutely 100% seriously what they think).

It's why American liberals now despise Christianity: it's the "opprssive religion of the white man". 

If a Muslim scholar were to tell these liberals the truth about Islam being for all of mankind, they would begin treating Muslims worse than American Christian conservatives do and I can almost promise you that, as sad as it may be.

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