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1 hour ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

Agreed. So why can't we have that scenario straight after Muhammad's [saw] departure without a present hidden Imam? Whether hidden or non-existent, the outcome is still the same; chaos.

We can, or after the 5 the or the 7th or the 12th. My point being there is nothing inherently wrong with 12er theory. An Imam in occultation can still have a value.

Allah choose to complete his message in medieval Arabia but could have chosen any time and location. 

I follow zaidi not because there theory makes sense or is superior to Sunni or 12er or Ismaili. But simply due to there fundamentals of usool and Madhab have the most evidence.

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7 hours ago, Warilla said:

We also have no problem intigrating without compromising our beliefs, as out rulings which go back to Prophet, Imam Ali and Ahlul Bayt are similar to the Sunnis eg Salat 

 

This is same mistake that people did about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in his life time that put his name beside people like as Muawiah (la) you can label me as zealous ut I don’t put his name  & other Imam beside 3 caliphs other tyrant rulers to absorb in ummah in exchange of forgetting my principles but I still have respect for other sects althought I don’t accept their deviated ideas & at the end I know Zandi’s brothers & sisters closer than anybody to us but I don’t forgot my principles to digest by other sects .

Faint not nor grieve, for ye will overcome them if ye are (indeed) believers. (139)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/3:139

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2 hours ago, Warilla said:

I follow zaidi not because there theory makes sense or is superior to Sunni or 12er or Ismaili. But simply due to there fundamentals of usool and Madhab have the most evidence.

I mean you would not follow something unless you believed it to be the truth. I know numbers isn't an argument per se (as Imami Shias are much smaller in number than Sunnis), but if we go by Wiki's 2014 estimate of 0.5% or even being generous and say 1% of Muslims are Zaidi, it seems rather exclusive for that to be the true Islam (I know those were not your words but end of the day it is one of the "73" sects, all of which claim the truth). And from what I read there are 3 main branches within Zaidis, do you follow one in particular?

The only English resource for information/dawah appears to be this one simple wordpress website, with very little key literature having been translated for the wider non Arabic speaking world, there's like 2 sections (purity and prayer) of the Musnad on Tashayu. It is all too obscure to me.

Also when it is said Zaidiya are the oldest Shia sect, how exactly is that deduced? Wasn't it a matter of some of those same early Shias simply going onto following Imam al Baqir (عليه السلام) rather than his contemporary and brother Imam Zaid (عليه السلام) ? 

How do you reconcile accepting Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) despite him not taking up arms against the corrupt ruler of his age, who also waged war against his father (عليه السلام)? I thought that was a pre requisite of the Imam for Zaidis?

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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3 hours ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

Taking fiqhi rulings is one thing. But taking an aqeeda is another. Did you know, that the majority of the 12ers fiqhi narrations are via Waqifi narrators? So the Waqifi are reliable for taking fiqhi matters. But when it comes to discussing their aqeeda, then they're unreliable

Salam one part of Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imams was being silent when one of their companions were doing something right ,by their silent they would approve their action or saying also beside that from time of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) ,Imams started to teach students that can answer questions of people for when people couldn’t have direct access to Imams (ams) that by a workable network they were keeping them up to date that in special cases people were asking rulling from their students in their area if they had true answer about it they would answer it if they didn’t have enough information about it the student was asking it from Imam through that network to receive answer from Imam instead of that people ask directly from an Imam (عليه السلام) 

Aqaid /Akhlaq class -Sh Nauru Muhammad -Lecture 3

q

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51 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Also when it is said Zaidiya are the oldest Shia sect, how exactly is that deduced? Wasn't it a matter of some of those same early Shias simply going onto following Imam al Baqir (عليه السلام) rather than his contemporary and brother Imam Zaid (عليه السلام) ? 

How do you reconcile accepting Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) despite him not taking up arms against the corrupt ruler of his age, who also waged war against his father (عليه السلام)? I thought that was a pre requisite of the Imam for Zaidis?

The numbers point I don't really have an answer for as such a small percentage can be off putting. But they were the majority of Shia at one stage. Which also meant nothing.

Are they the oldest Shia? I don't know 100% but they have the oldest hadith collections compared to other Shia, and current zaidi reflect earliest Shia views from what I've read. 

Resources are a problem at the moment but I'm following my basics. (which I did as a 12er). And online resource and zaidi forum for Al  rassi foundation have answered most the questions I can think of.

As for Imam Hassan. He is of the 5 infallibles. And a divinely designated Imam. The conditions you mention of for fallible Imams after Imam Hussein. So no reconcilation is needed.

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

This is same mistake that people did about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in his life time that put his name beside people like as Muawiah (la) you can label me as zealous ut I don’t put his name  & other Imam beside 3 caliphs other tyrant rulers to absorb in ummah in exchange of forgetting my principles but I still have respect for other sects althought I don’t accept their deviated ideas & at the end I know Zandi’s brothers & sisters closer than anybody to us but I don’t forgot my principles to digest by other sects .

Faint not nor grieve, for ye will overcome them if ye are (indeed) believers. (139)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/3:139

I understand your view. As 12er and Sunni views have limited compatibility. Zaidis don't but I can see how you see how we look like a group sitting on the fence. It's a valid argument.

But in essence Imam Ali showed how to act towards the first 3 and how to act to Muawiya. We try to follow his example.

Edited by Warilla

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@Warilla can you shed some light on the Zaidi Ashura/Mourning rituals. This was one of the reasons I started to question myself when I was a 12er as a great deal of emphasis is placed on azadari rituals. I’m sure you can relate. So what do the Zaidis do in commemorating Muharram?

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2 hours ago, 786:) said:

@Warilla can you shed some light on the Zaidi Ashura/Mourning rituals. This was one of the reasons I started to question myself when I was a 12er as a great deal of emphasis is placed on azadari rituals. I’m sure you can relate. So what do the Zaidis do in commemorating Muharram?

So the significance of Kerbala is in a way greater as we lost the last of the 5 inffalibles. But due to hadith of the Prophet quoted by Imam Zaid wailing and beating oneself is prohibited. There are no specific rituals.And no symbolism eg Alam, taboot etc. Attending lectures to here the events of Kerbala is fine.

I'm not sure about any specific Amaal namaz etc. Basically there is not much as our last infallible was Imam Hussein and there after Imams and scholars task is to convey the teachings and practices of them. Not to introduce inovation. 

Edited by Warilla

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58 minutes ago, Warilla said:

But due to hadith of the Prophet quoted by Imam Zaid wailing and beating oneself is prohibited.

Was that hadith related to a particular incident (like with the martyrdom of Hazrat Hamza) or was the ruling given generally?

From a 12er perspective, I came across hadith both for and against wailing and beating. Definitely nothing in favour for self flaggelation though.

What about in terms of marriage? Do Zaydies allow syed and non-syed mix marriages? Only ask because I'm pretty sure I came across a hadith in the 12er corpus which was attributed to Zayd ibn Ali whereby he didn't allow his daughter to marry someone due to them being outside the bloodline.

Edited by Jaane Ya Ali

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7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam one part of Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imams was being silent when one of their companions were doing something right ,by their silent they would approve their action or saying also beside that from time of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) ,Imams started to teach students that can answer questions of people for when people couldn’t have direct access to Imams (ams) that by a workable network they were keeping them up to date that in special cases people were asking rulling from their students in their area if they had true answer about it they would answer it if they didn’t have enough information about it the student was asking it from Imam through that network to receive answer from Imam instead of that people ask directly from an Imam (عليه السلام) 

Aqaid /Akhlaq class -Sh Nauru Muhammad -Lecture 3

q

That I can agree with; that the student relays the answer(s) given by the teacher. However, I've come across a hadith whereby some students would employ qiyas to answer questions that were new to them. Alas, they were rebuked by their Imam. But one would wonder how many students got away with giving incorrect answers due to self deduction.

If you also see the first link I posted in the message you quoted. You'll see a claim being made that liars from Kufa would make up rulings that would be attributed to the likes of as-Sadiq. I suppose this is one reason for the amount of contradictions found in hadith during this period.

Ps. I haven't got around to viewing your video yet.

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I'm so happy people are finally searching for answers themselves . I left sectarianism at age 25 and never been happier. Things are so much more clear and you can study things objectively. 

We are in the midst of a revolution,  thanks to the Qur'an and technology that has presented different ideas to people across the world. 

We live in an Ummah that wants to put you in a box the minute you're born, teach you the innovations and the sectarian disease that their fathers believed in.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I don’t put his name  & other Imam beside 3 caliphs other tyrant rulers to absorb in ummah

What are your opinions on al-Ridha accepting the post of crown prince (a position supposedly created by Muavia) of al-Mamun after being threatened? Al-Mamun had a war with his brother which weakened him. And there were other Alid rebellions taking place in places like Basri (and another place but I can't recall). And so it seems he wanted to strengthen his position by taking on al-Ridha, as a sort of endorsement of his position and to gain Alid support. (And maybe even due to some end of times beliefs)

Apparently the title Ridha was also given by al-Mamun. Then it is claimed that al-Mamun killed al-Ridha. That he/his servants washed al-Ridha's body and he was buried next to Harun Rashid (father of al-Mamun). But what I find extra confusing is why al-Jawad (a child at the time) would declare his Imamah to al-Mamun, after the latter was responsible for the murder of al-Jawad's father? I find this all very strange...

Edited by Jaane Ya Ali

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8 hours ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

What are your opinions on al-Ridha accepting the post of crown prince (a position supposedly created by Muavia) of al-Mamun after being threatened? Al-Mamun had a war with his brother which weakened him. And there were other Alid rebellions taking place in places like Basri (and another place but I can't recall). And so it seems he wanted to strengthen his position by taking on al-Ridha, as a sort of endorsement of his position and to gain Alid support. (And maybe even due to some end of times beliefs)

Apparently the title Ridha was also given by al-Mamun. Then it is claimed that al-Mamun killed al-Ridha. That he/his servants washed al-Ridha's body and he was buried next to Harun Rashid (father of al-Mamun). But what I find extra confusing is why al-Jawad (a child at the time) would declare his Imamah to al-Mamun, after the latter was responsible for the murder of al-Jawad's father? I find this all very strange...

Salam Imam Said to Mamun that if caliphate is right of you & your father based on true claims so you can’t transfer it to me either it wasn’t your right & you take it by force without any right about it again you can’t offer it to me because you are no legitimate rulers from beginning also there is golden chain Hadith that Imam Reza(عليه السلام) said saying ‘la ilaha Al’ Allah ‘ is fortress of Allah & who enters it will not harm from wrath of Allah but when he started moving behind camel (for safety from enemies) said but it has conditions & acceptance of our Imamate is one of its conditions .

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2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

when he started moving behind camel (for safety from enemies) said but it has conditions & acceptance of our Imamate is one of its conditions .

I've read the golden chain hadith it is as you quoted. But this final part I haven't come across. As far as I know the word Imam was not mentioned. And I have never come across the bit about moving behinde a camel for safety. Also Imam Rezza was quoting the Prophet that's why it the golden chain.

Edited by Warilla

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26 minutes ago, Warilla said:

I've read the golden chain hadith it is as you quoted. But this final part I haven't come across. As far as I know the word Imam was not mentioned. And I have never come across the bit about moving behinde a camel for safety. Also Imam Rezza was quoting the Prophet that's why it the golden chain.

Salam the complete version of it refers to his Imamate & Imamate of other imamas but not mentioned in all sources but it exists youjust to search about it a bit more also he narrates chain from just Shia Imams until reaches Prophet Muhammad (pbu) for accepting the Hadith you must accept him & other Imams before him as trustworthy people that both Shia & Sunnis have no doubt about their right saying 

https://www.imamreza.net/old/eng/imamreza.php?id=6777

https://en.shafaqna.com/the-hadith-of-the-golden-chain-silsilat-al-dhahab-from-Imam-ridha-as/

http://www.ezsoftech.com/stories/imamraza3.asp

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Hadith_Silsilat_al-Dhahab

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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23 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Shia Imams until reaches Prophet Muhammad (pbu) for accepting the Hadith you must accept him & other Imams before him as trustworthy people that both Shia & Sunnis have no doubt about their right saying.

We accept all in the chain but not as inffalible 12er Imams. Sunni also accept the chain. Your final link is the version I have read.

"I heard my father Musa b. Ja'far (a)say that I heard my father Ja'far b. Muhammad (a)say that I heard my father Muhammad b. 'Ali (a) say that I heard my father 'Ali b. al-Husayn (a) say that I heard my father Husayn b. 'Ali (a) say that I heard my father Amir al-Mu'minin 'Ali b. Abi Talib (a) say that I heard God's Messenger (s) say that I heard Gabriel say that I heard God say that 'the sentence 'There is no God but God' is my stronghold, thus whomever enters my stronghold shall be safe from my punishment.'" As the Imam's (a) caravan began to move, he said aloud: "With its conditions, and I myself am one of those conditions."

The final part is either quoting the Prophet as in the Prophet is the condition or it is not part of the golden chain.

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28 minutes ago, Warilla said:

We accept all in the chain but not as inffalible 12er Imams. Sunni also accept the chain. Your final link is the version I have read.

"I heard my father Musa b. Ja'far (a)say that I heard my father Ja'far b. Muhammad (a)say that I heard my father Muhammad b. 'Ali (a) say that I heard my father 'Ali b. al-Husayn (a) say that I heard my father Husayn b. 'Ali (a) say that I heard my father Amir al-Mu'minin 'Ali b. Abi Talib (a) say that I heard God's Messenger (s) say that I heard Gabriel say that I heard God say that 'the sentence 'There is no God but God' is my stronghold, thus whomever enters my stronghold shall be safe from my punishment.'" As the Imam's (a) caravan began to move, he said aloud: "With its conditions, and I myself am one of those conditions."

The final part is either quoting the Prophet as in the Prophet is the condition or it is not part of the golden chain.

Definitely he is main condition but non of Sunni leaders like as 3 caliphs don’t have any rule or right in this Hadith.

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23 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

The Qur'an is never separated from the pure progeny of the Prophet Muhamamd saww and alone looking into Qur'an  no one knows the truth and principles of the religion. This is what we see in the light of hadith of two weighty things ie hadith thaqalayn.

What is your belief regarding the Qur'an and in particular, its compilation. When was it compiled in book form and by whom?

Edited by Jaane Ya Ali

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31 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

What is your belief regarding the Qur'an and in particular, its compilation. When was it compiled in book form and by whom?

However it is Off topic and it needs a separate thread for details other than Imams of Zaidis under discussion here

But the Qur'an defines the principles of religion and detail about its verses  comes through the hadith and sayings of Ahl alabayt ie pure progeny of the Prophet saaw for implementation.

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