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27 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

How do you doubt about it? Are All his posts not defending the Zaidys thought?

 

I believe both Twelvers and Zaidi's are 100% procent Muslims.

We should look for Haqq, forget about the labels.

 

Edited by Faruk

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1 hour ago, Faruk said:

Are you a Zaidi and if not what exactly?

Just curious.

To be honest, I just consider myself a Muslim. I consider Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to be the righful successor. I do not totally subscribe to one sect or subsect as that can lead to bias. I look for ideas that most closely reflect the words of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). I believe imamate at its early stages was the equivalent to what the marjah system is today. This is evident by the number of Shia subsects that formed—very similar to what taqleed is today.

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45 minutes ago, Faruk said:

I believe both Twelvers and Zaidi's are 100% procent Muslims.

We should look for Haqq, forget about the labels.

Nice to see your posts after a  long time,  Ali is with Haq and Haq is with Ali AS.

Edited by skyweb1987

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10 minutes ago, 786:) said:

I believe imamate at its early stages was the equivalent to what the marjah system is today. This is evident by the number of Shia subsects that formed—very similar to what taqleed is today.

Which imamate or Imams do you mean?

The Shia subsects only appeared AFTER the Martyrdom of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

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4 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

Nice to see your posts after a  long time,  Haq is with Ali and Ali is with Haq. 

Nice to see you again too.

As sincere as ever. 

Aliyun Waliullah

Edited by Faruk

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26 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Which imamate or Imams do you mean?

The Shia subsects only appeared AFTER the Martyrdom of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

Right, there was an ijma up until Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). Then it became scattered like the marjah system. This is why I have a hard time accepting the 12 were chosen from the start narrative. I've brought this up in past post, but it is just odd that Imam Ali's (عليه السلام) son would dispute imamate. Then later Imam Zainul Abideen's children dispute it. So on so forth. The dispute amongst the Ahlul Bayt is just a puzzling piece which keeps me from accepting the 12 chosen from the start narrative.

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20 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Right, there was an ijma up until Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). Then it became scattered like the marjah system. This is why I have a hard time accepting the 12 were chosen from the start narrative. I've brought this up in past post, but it is just odd that Imam Ali's (عليه السلام) son would dispute imamate. Then later Imam Zainul Abideen's children dispute it. So on so forth. The dispute amongst the Ahlul Bayt is just a puzzling piece which keeps me from accepting the 12 chosen from the start narrative.

I believe it depends on how you define imamate.

Imamare is not synonymous with caliphate. That is where most confusion starts.

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1 hour ago, 786:) said:

To be honest, I just consider myself a Muslim. I consider Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to be the righful successor. I do not totally subscribe to one sect or subsect as that can lead to bias. I look for ideas that most closely reflect the words of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). I believe imamate at its early stages was the equivalent to what the marjah system is today. This is evident by the number of Shia subsects that formed—very similar to what taqleed is today.

The early Imamah was more of a political thing than a theological one. Right since the times of Abu Bakr , Hashmites were a political faction claiming their right to Imamah (Caliphate). Once after Uthman the Hashmites got some what of an upper hand , they diverged into Alids, Abbasid , Jaffarites. That's where you see strains of splits with in the Hashmites due to internal power struggle and that's how it goes once a political party attains power. There are rifts and there is choas. Even the Alids split among themselves for the same reason. Generally , for most of the Shias (who were mainly political Shias) Imam was the Hashmite who had unsleeved the sword and was politically active. It was for this reasons that Muhammad ibn Hanafiyyah and Zaid  dominated the Imamat theater compared to Zain ul abideen or Baqir. The "12 Imams" is a later day theological invention which is in a sharp contradiction with history.

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22 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

.The "12 Imams" is a later day theological invention which is in a sharp contradiction with history.

I agree but 12er will point to "early" scripture like the Book of Sulaym ibn Qays

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26 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

Baqir. The "12 Imams" is a later day theological invention which is in a sharp contradiction with history.

It’s a divine leadership that comes by Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from beginning of world 

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2 minutes ago, Warilla said:

I agree but 12er will point to "early" scripture like the Book of Sulaym ibn Qays

The book is not reliable and I am sure no serious Shia would quote it as a reference. The confusions and disputes regarding the number Imams and who should be the next Imam is alone sufficient to prove that there was no such concept in the early days of Imamah.

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23 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

The book is not reliable and I am sure no serious Shia would quote it as a reference. The confusions and disputes regarding the number Imams and who should be the next Imam is alone sufficient to prove that there was no such concept in the early days of Imamah.

The serious Shia who die by the door incident sure quote it.

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2 hours ago, Leibniz said:

The "12 Imams" is a later day theological invention which is in a sharp contradiction with history.

For me it ties to the Sunni/Shia narration of 12 successors. If not them, then who else?

There at least is some uniform structure of imamate (within and among 12ers at least) and coming from my previous Sunni background, I think a step further to being non-12er, I would be a minority within a minority. And that feels a bit like a religious wilderness to me if that sort of makes sense and seems too exclusive to be the Haqq.

I also like how 12ers at least know the Imam of our time, again a shared narration which emphasises the importance of that.

Maybe as I found comfort in previously being part of a majority I still carry that thinking with me. 

Ultimately I'm content with accepting 12 Imams but that's me.

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4 hours ago, 786:) said:

To be honest, I just consider myself a Muslim. I consider Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to be the righful successor. I do not totally subscribe to one sect or subsect as that can lead to bias. I look for ideas that most closely reflect the words of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). I believe imamate at its early stages was the equivalent to what the marjah system is today. This is evident by the number of Shia subsects that formed—very similar to what taqleed is today.

After reading this post, now I understand your opinions in previous threads.

I take it you are not usuli then?

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To add to 786s post,

Had Imam Ali as been the successor and perhaps Hassan and Hussein AS , things wouldve ended up much better overall. This is assuming people wouldve followed them and not rebelled. 

But thats not evidence for 12er Imamah. That is a later invention. 

Salam

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1 hour ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

 I think a step further to being non-12er, I would be a minority within a minority. And that feels a bit like a religious wilderness to me if that sort of makes sense and seems too exclusive to be the Haqq.

It's the opposite for me 12er felt like a cult. Where as being zaidi feels like another Madhab with the four others. I feel part of the ummah. And I feel I represent the Ahlul Bayt in the truest sense.

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13 minutes ago, Fink said:

To add to 786s post,

Had Imam Ali as been the successor and perhaps Hassan and Hussein AS , things wouldve ended up much better overall.

I think there would not have been zaidi or 12er or Sunni

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6 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Actually, seeing you cherry pick which of my questions to answer I decided not to engage any further in the debate.

I come to Shiachat to learn. You may gather that from the number of posts I have since being a member in 2004.

I was born and brought up as a twelver. Lived devoutly and religiously as a twelver for over 30 years. But delving deeper into my beliefs and history was the changing point. When you see things from a critical angle, then you see problems.

Alas, I lost certainty as a twelver a couple years back. I don't adhere to any sect at the moment and not planning to either. I am a Muslim, a Mu'min and strive to live as the righteous defined in [2:177]. If others want to separate and call themselves a different label then that's their prerogative.

I believe the Qur'an as the only infallible source available to us, which dictates the fundamentals of one's belief. It calls itself "kitabin mubin" [clear book] repeated so I seek Allah's guidance through it and its clear verses. Of course, one is always a student of the Qur'an and so my studies are a continuous journey.

In the end, it's about using reason as mentioned numerous times in the Qur'an. I endeavour to use that aql to my capacity inshaAllah. But without His (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guidance, we are just lost souls. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide us all to the ultimate truth.

Fi Amanillah.

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2 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

For me it ties to the Sunni/Shia narration of 12 successors. If not them, then who else?

There at least is some uniform structure of imamate (within and among 12ers at least) and coming from my previous Sunni background, I think a step further to being non-12er, I would be a minority within a minority. And that feels a bit like a religious wilderness to me if that sort of makes sense and seems too exclusive to be the Haqq.

I also like how 12ers at least know the Imam of our time, again a shared narration which emphasises the importance of that.

Maybe as I found comfort in previously being part of a majority I still carry that thinking with me. 

Ultimately I'm content with accepting 12 Imams but that's me.

There is a rhetorical refutation of that Hadith of the 12 Caliphs in Sunni literature. For Shias , why was not this Hadith quoted against the 5vers , 7ers and all the various sects which sprung after the demise of each Imam and some very sincere Shias getting into schism and utter confusion?

The argument is that there must be an Imam , a divine and infallible one to lead the Ummah or the Ummah shall get distracted. The Ummah did get distracted despite the Sunni Caliphs and the Shia Imams. Worse in the case of Shias as most of the schism with in Shiasm appeared due to Imamah itself. Of what good is an Imam living in Madinah or Baghdad who can't declare himself to be Imam publicly and unequivocally for a Muslim living in 8th century Africa? 

As far as the occult Imam , he is Imam since the last the last 1100 years. He is disconnected from the practical world and one can just believe in him as an article of faith. What purpose does this belief serve in face of the purpose of Imamah that there must be an Imam in every times ? None. 

For all practical purposes , the Aga Khanian concept of present Imam is far better if one takes into account the purpose of Imamah. Atleast  you see the Imam , he publicly claims to be Imam , he has some authority and he is leading his community in some form and shape.

For me , the Sunni doctrine of Adool Sahaba and the Shia doctrine of 12 infallible Imams are equally puritan fantasized concepts and I am of the opinion that 'mere Islam' is enough for salvation ie  belief in one God , finality of Prophethood , life hereafter and Islamic morals.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

There is a rhetorical refutation of that Hadith of the 12 Caliphs in Sunni literature. For Shias , why was not this Hadith quoted against the 5vers , 7ers and all the various sects which sprung after the demise of each Imam and some very sincere Shias getting into schism and utter confusion?

The argument is that there must be an Imam , a divine and infallible one to lead the Ummah or the Ummah shall get distracted. The Ummah did get distracted despite the Sunni Caliphs and the Shia Imams. Worse in the case of Shias as most of the schism with in Shiasm appeared due to Imamah itself. Of what good is an Imam living in Madinah or Baghdad who can't declare himself to be Imam publicly and unequivocally for a Muslim living in 8th century Africa? 

As far as the occult Imam , he is Imam since the last the last 1100 years. He is disconnected from the practical world and one can just believe in him as an article of faith. What purpose does this belief serve in face of the purpose of Imamah that there must be an Imam in every times ? None. 

For all practical purposes , the Aga Khanian concept of present Imam is far better if one takes into account the purpose of Imamah. Atleast  you see the Imam , he publicly claims to be Imam , he has some authority and he is leading his community in some form and shape.

For me , the Sunni doctrine of Adool Sahaba and the Shia doctrine of 12 infallible Imams are equally puritan fantasized concepts and I am of the opinion that 'mere Islam' is enough for salvation ie  belief in one God , finality of Prophethood , life hereafter and Islamic morals.

 

 

Excellent. Furthermore , The vague hadith of 12 Caliphs/ Imams never became a practical reality. Between the divisions and Fitns , it is not a hujjah upon anyone - especially as the hadith describes Islam standing strong or azeez. 

 

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