Zaidism

[Ali bin Hussein]

4 hours ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

@Warilla

What are Zaidi views on 'the burning of the house/door of Fatima'? Specifically, do you believe the event took place?

To be honest I avoid looking into this topic as even if it were true, Imam Ali showed patience. When I have heard about the incident I feel rage towards the purpotrator. The more you look into it the angrier you get. If it's true then  it becomes hard to emulate Imam Ali. And I feel if I amassed enough evidence in my mind to proove it. I'd probably go cursing a purpotrator of such an act at the top of my lungs. 

Emulate the Ahlul Bayt and know my limits that's my stance.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Warilla

[Ashvazdanghe]

Zaidism in 12ershia view

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa6871

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

How authentic are Zaidi hadith deemed?

I saw how from the Musnad on the part of Purity and Prayer on Tashayu, that quite close chains, basically going from Imam Zaid to his father and grandfather to the Prophet in some cases.

There are for example hadith talking about the Prophet saw washing his feet or Imam Ali as turning his head right then left during salams in prayer.

So what is the deal?

[The Straight Path]

9 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

How authentic are Zaidi hadith deemed?

I saw how from the Musnad on the part of Purity and Prayer on Tashayu, that quite close chains, basically going from Imam Zaid to his father and grandfather to the Prophet in some cases.

There are for example hadith talking about the Prophet saw washing his feet or Imam Ali as turning his head right then left during salams in prayer.

So what is the deal?

Salam brother 

Check this out regarding the authenticity of Musnad Zayd ((رضي الله عنه)):

 

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

44 minutes ago, The Straight Path said:

Salam brother 

Check this out regarding the authenticity of Musnad Zayd ((رضي الله عنه)):

 

Wasalam

 

Thanks, some interesting points and quotes from Wilfred Madelung too.

@Warilla have you had a look at this thread?

[Ali bin Hussein]

1 hour ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Wasalam

 

Thanks, some interesting points and quotes from Wilfred Madelung too.

@Warilla have you had a look at this thread?

Yes I have read it before. So the musnad Zaid is not seen as irrefutable sahih as it's a single chain. And Imam Zaid is not inffalible. But zaidi apply a strict criteria for hadith an look at all hadith from Ahlul Bayt from the lines of both Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain. To try an minimise error.

Also none of there fundamental beliefs are based on these hadith alone. Such as 12er usool being 12 inffalible Imams which requires hadith such as Bihar ull Anwar and Al kafi.

I've never claimed the zaidi Madhab is the pure truth I just believe them to be the best repesention of an Ahlul Bayt Madhab. 

You can refuse to accept Imam zaid and still be zaidi in principle.

You can be Sunni and pray like hanafi or Maliki etc

Both these madhabs acknowledge there limits.

But to be 12er you must except 12 specific Imams, and must accept they are inffalible and divinely designated.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Warilla

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

I guess for my personal journey, the fact that the Jafari madhab is the only one with wudhu being the most likely authentic method (based on Qur'an and the era and geography of the Prophet) and their salah being not only in the "Madinah" way but the obligatory prostrating on Earth or from the Earth.

To me it just has this feeling of authenticity, simplicity and being primordial.

The 12 Imams concept I can live with and to me at least fulfils the narration of 12 (I know you said it is not a strong one for Zaidis). Twelveness is also a phemonenon from before, ie 12 Tribes, 12 Disciples, etc.

Lastly, I draw comfort in knowing the Imam of my time.

Ultimately the Jafari way of wudhu and prayer alone is sufficient for me to know I made the right choice in changing from the mainstream majority madhab.

If I was not to be a 12er for whatever reason, I know for a fact I could not be Sunni again, but Zaidiya definitely seems like a reasonable, compromise.

[Ali bin Hussein]

I understand and  your points are fair. I believe there is a need for a jafferi madhab that does not require the conformity of 12 Imams or the extreme practice or beleifs of 12er. This Madhab would also slot easily next to zaidi and Sunni. From what I've read it seems 12er evolved from a mainstream jafferi madhab into what it is now. Maybe it's time for a ressurecution of the jafferi school of thought. As well as the propogation of Zaidi madhab. I feel the Ahlul Bayt have been misrepresented by majority of Shia for too long.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Warilla

[786:)]

I agree that the school of Ahlul Bayt is misrepresented by its followers. This is essentially why I have decided to look for alternatives to my 12er upbringing. I simply did not see what was being preached and practiced as divine and from the teachings of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his progeny. I once upon a time showed an uncle the images of google search for Shia Islam. He told me the pictures filled with naked men and bloody babies was our identity. Granted this man is no scholar, but it just shows the quality of Islam laymen and mainstream 12ers have come to accept. I’m sure it goes for Sunnis too, but I can only speak for my upbringing.

Edited February 23, 2019 by 786:)

[Ali bin Hussein]

It's the reality. But things are shifting. Look at the views of contemporary Shia scholars compared to classic (well open views, as taqiya is always lurking). The jafferi madhab has a long and hard battle ahead of it. 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Warilla

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

1 hour ago, 786:) said:

I agree that the school of Ahlul Bayt is misrepresented by its followers. This is essentially why I have decided to look for alternatives to my 12er upbringing. I simply did not see what was being preached and practiced as divine and from the teachings of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his progeny. I once upon a time showed an uncle the images of google search for Shia Islam. He told me the pictures filled with naked men and bloody babies was our identity. Granted this man is no scholar, but it just shows the quality of Islam laymen and mainstream 12ers have come to accept. I’m sure it goes for Sunnis too, but I can only speak for my upbringing.

I suppose I am fortunate coming from my background in that I don't partake in those rituals you speak of which give a bad image to outsiders. Maybe an influence from being Sunni but I also omit the part of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) when I say adhan and iqama as it is not part of the adhan. I don't feel comfortable adding to the adhan. I also prefer using a plain turbah or the plain side.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

Today, many Yemeni Twelvers still dissemble about their adherence to that school, following the doctrine of taqiyya, or religiously permissible dissemblance. Yet in a 2010 interview with the author, Morteza Mohatwari, a leading Zaidi cleric who runs a seminary in Sana, stated that very little now separates Twelvers from Zaidis in terms of their political theology (as opposed to their styles of jurisprudence, which remain different). In his view, Zaidis who "convert" actually believe that the Iranian regime's version of Twelver Shiism is the true Zaidism because it mobilizes the masses to confront foreign powers and unjust rulers.

https://www.businessinsider.com/irans-window-of-influence-in-yemen-is-getting-bigger-2015-2

[Ali bin Hussein]

This is a good point. Infact some zaidi did see Ayatullah Khomeini as an Imam even tough 12er theology is different.

[Faruk]

2 hours ago, Warilla said:

This is a good point. Infact some zaidi did see Ayatullah Khomeini as an Imam even tough 12er theology is different.

I ain't a Twelver yet at the moment he's the only acceptable Islamic ruler.

 

[Jaane Rabb]

6 hours ago, Warilla said:

This is a good point. Infact some zaidi did see Ayatullah Khomeini as an Imam even tough 12er theology is different.

Well, there is an extreme 12er usooli group that claim Khomeini to have some serious merits, such as him being thee al-Kawthar. Perfect example of attributing something to someone after their death. His burial place has also been getting quite the extravagant treatment. A massive mausoleum/shrine with a golden dome and golden minarets, which has become a place for ziyarat since decades. I've been there twice myself when I was in Iran. So he's definitely being cherished.

4 hours ago, Faruk said:

I ain't a Twelver yet at the moment he's the only acceptable Islamic ruler.

Hmm, not sure some of his close aides would've agreed with their criticisms of the mass executions that Khomeini gave fatwas for.

Then there's the other story that the British helped him overthrow the Shah because Iran was "on the verge of independence in its oil sales policy for the first time since 1953."

Mohammed Reza Pahlavi himself asserted that, "If you lift up Khomeini's beard, you will find MADE IN ENGLAND written under his chin," in the later days of his reign as monarch.

Allah knows what's going on in this crazy world.

Edited March 2, 2019 by Jaane Rabb

[Faruk]

@Jaane Rabb

In these times Hamas, Hezbollah, the real MB and the Islamic Republic of Iran are being demonized as if they're the opressors yet we all know the real Troika of Evil which is the Imperialist US-the Wahhabi Saudi's and the Israeli Zionists.

I don't believe fairy tales about them siding with the opressors which are fabrications of the agressors theirselves who are not ashamed to use any means possible..

 

 

Edited March 2, 2019 by Faruk

[Ashvazdanghe]

7 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

His burial place has also been getting quite the extravagant treatment. A massive mausoleum/shrine with a golden dome and golden minarets, which has become a place for ziyarat since decades. I've been there twice myself when I was in Iran. So he's definitely being cherished.

Salam alraedy many Shia speaker & scholars are condemning building this  mausoleum/shrine with a golden dome and golden minarets 

 

7 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Then there's the other story that the British helped him overthrow the Shah because Iran was "on the verge of independence in its oil sales policy for the first time since 1953."

Mohammed Reza Pahlavi himself asserted that, "If you lift up Khomeini's beard, you will find MADE IN ENGLAND written under his chin," in the later days of his reign as monarch.

this accusation is repeating by many anti regime group but I saw the version that is claiming it was American work 

[Faruk]

7 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Well, there is an extreme 12er usooli group that claim Khomeini to have some serious merits, such as him being thee al-Kawthar. Perfect example of attributing something to someone after their death. His burial place has also been getting quite the extravagant treatment. A massive mausoleum/shrine with a golden dome and golden minarets, which has become a place for ziyarat since decades. I've been there twice myself when I was in Iran. So he's definitely being cherished.

So when Christians defy Jesus (عليه السلام) we should condemn Jesus (عليه السلام) because of them?

What does the addition of extremists have to do with Khomeini rahimahullah himself or my belief about him rahimahullah?

Edited March 2, 2019 by Faruk

[Jaane Rabb]

39 minutes ago, Faruk said:

@Jaane Rabb

In these times Hamas, Hezbollah, the real MB and the Islamic Republic of Iran are being demonized as if they're the opressors yet we all know the real Troika of Evil which is the Imperialist US-the Wahhabi Saudi's and the Israeli Zionists.

I don't believe fairy tales about them siding with the opressors which are fabrications of the agressors theirselves who are not ashamed to use any means possible..

I think you're mixing the two - spiritual and political - and basing your opinion on that. Sure, credit to Iran and co. for standing up against their oppressors. But a lot of that is down to geopolitics. You don't see this level of demonization against the current Iraqi Shi'I administration for example. Quite the opposite rather, with reference to Iraqi-Saud trade deals in the pipeline. Perhaps, Iran brought some of this demonization upon themselves with their iron fist stance.

The political fight doesn't make Iran right spiritually. There, there's a separate battle between Qom and Najaf. The two don't see eye to eye. The latter rejects calls to adhere to the Wilayat al-Faqih concept. Sistani, an Iranian descent, hasn't gone to Iran in decades [I think since the revolution]. He was invited by Ahmedinejad a while ago but turned down the invitation. His rejection was speculated to be an acceptance of the regime had he obliged. Some within the Iraqi scholarly ranks even make claims of Iranian assassination plots against Iraqi scholars.

Anyway, regardless of the truth and conspiracy theories, I thought this interview of the Shah was quite an eye opener as to why Britain would've wanted to remove him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p5Nj1USs9c

One thing's for sure though. The BBC certainly gave Khomeini a lot of free airtime. There's allegations of a biased BBC acting as the mouthpiece of Khomeini, backing the downfall of the Shah.

 

34 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

this accusation is repeating by many anti regime group but I saw the version that is claiming it was American work 

Unfortunately, there are two sides to the story. I like to hear both sides. One of the anti-regime groups is actually based in Iran and consists of scholars.

 

29 minutes ago, Faruk said:

So when Christians defy Jesus (عليه السلام) we should condemn Jesus (عليه السلام) because of them?

What does the addition of extremists have to do with Khomeini rahimahullah himself or my belief about him rahimahullah?

You've misunderstood me. I definitely didn't condemn Khomeini because of his lovers. In fact I said, "Perfect example of attributing something to someone after their death". I think Khomeini would also be very unhappy with the mausoleum they're building around his burial site.

Fi Amanillah

[Faruk]

1 hour ago, Jaane Rabb said:

I think you're mixing the two - spiritual and political

Salam brother',

I consider both, Shia' and Sunni's to be Muslims, regardless of their creedal diffirences.

1 hour ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Sure, credit to Iran and co. for standing up against their oppressors. But a lot of that is down to geopolitics. You don't see this level of demonization against the current Iraqi Shi'I administration for example. Quite the opposite rather, with reference to Iraqi-Saud trade deals in the pipeline. Perhaps, Iran brought some of this demonization upon themselves with their iron fist stance.

I nowhere claimed that the Resistance is the monopoly of Twelver Shia's. On a geo-political level even Christians or anti-Zionist Jews may join the Resistance.

1 hour ago, Jaane Rabb said:

The political fight doesn't make Iran right spiritually. There, there's a separate battle between Qom and Najaf. The two don't see eye to eye. The latter rejects calls to adhere to the Wilayat al-Faqih concept. Sistani, an Iranian descent, hasn't gone to Iran in decades [I think since the revolution]. He was invited by Ahmedinejad a while ago but turned down the invitation. His rejection was speculated to be an acceptance of the regime had he obliged. Some within the Iraqi scholarly ranks even make claims of Iranian assassination plots against Iraqi scholars.

My last reply implicates that there are pro- and anti-Resistance Shia's as well. WF is not a core issue. Only to thicken supposed diffirences.

 

1 hour ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Anyway, regardless of the truth and conspiracy theories, I thought this interview of the Shah was quite an eye opener as to why Britain would've wanted to remove him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p5Nj1USs9c

One thing's for sure though. The BBC certainly gave Khomeini a lot of free airtime. There's allegations of a biased BBC acting as the mouthpiece of Khomeini, backing the downfall of the Shah.

Even if so that still does not take away the fact that the Islamic Republic of Iran is considered to be the number 1# enemy of the current imperialist-zionist world order.

Edited March 2, 2019 by Faruk

[Jaane Rabb]

44 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Salam brother',

I consider both, Shia' and Sunni's to be Muslims, regardless of their creedal diffirences.

Even if so that still does not take away the fact that the Islamic Republic of Iran is considered to be the number 1# enemy of the current imperialist-zionist world order.

Wassalaam brother,

I agree both Sunni and Shia are Muslim. Though when I said "mix the two" I was specifically talking about one's political and spiritual struggle.

And so from your initial message, it seemed to me that you were saying Iran is righteous as they're standing up to the Zionist entity.

All I'm saying is that there are two struggles, a political and a spiritual. Iran being righteous on the political stage doesn't make their spiritual and religious policies righteous. Both have to be viewed independently.

Fi Amanillah

[Faruk]

1 hour ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Wassalaam brother,

I agree both Sunni and Shia are Muslim. Though when I said "mix the two" I was specifically talking about one's political and spiritual struggle.

And so from your initial message, it seemed to me that you were saying Iran is righteous as they're standing up to the Zionist entity.

All I'm saying is that there are two struggles, a political and a spiritual. Iran being righteous on the political stage doesn't make their spiritual and religious policies righteous. Both have to be viewed independently.

Fi Amanillah

Salam brother,

The active stance of the Islamic Republic of Iran is derived from Wilayatul Fiqh.

I do not want to generalise but secularism CAN lead to a passive and introvert attitude. This ofcourse is no law when we witness the active stance of Syria, Lebanon and Venezuela for example. At the other hand it can lead to siding with opressors and/or their (ceremonial) Muslim-allies. 

Edited March 2, 2019 by Faruk

[Jaane Rabb]

On 3/2/2019 at 3:26 PM, Faruk said:

Salam brother,

The active stance of the Islamic Republic of Iran is derived from Wilayatul Fiqh.

I do not want to generalise but secularism CAN lead to a passive and introvert attitude. This ofcourse is no law when we witness the active stance of Syria, Lebanon and Venezuela for example. At the other hand it can lead to siding with opressors and/or their (ceremonial) Muslim-allies. 

Wassalaam,

That's why I think WF is a core issue which divides the two Shi'I religious behemoths [Iran and Iraq].

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by your last para. I think Iran can be accused of siding with some weird nations as well, the likes of North Korea [because of their shared hatred of the US] and China [who've essentially banned Islam]. I couldn't see Muhammad (S) treating such entities as allies. Alas, It's all down geopolitics, power and self-preservation.

Iran's current leader, Khamenai, although selected/favoured by Khomeini, wasn't actually qualified for the Supreme leader position he's in. So they had to amend the constitution for him to take the role. It sounds a lot like the accusations Shias throw at others "who weren't qualified for the role".

Right now, Sistani is the most followed maraja and rightfully so in my opinion. A wikileak few years back spoke of Sistani being Iran's greatest political roadblock for Iranian operations in Iraq, because of his different approach to politics and disavowment of Iran's view of a theocratic government [WF]. Will be interesting to see how things pan out when Sistani reaches the end of his lifeline.

Fi Amanillah

[Simon the Canaanite]

On 2/11/2019 at 3:34 PM, 786:) said:

However, they do not curse the companions.

You do realize that modern Zāidis (e.g., Yemenite Ḥoūthis) follow the Jārūdiyah belief?

Which “sees the kufr of A’bu Bakr, Omar and all of the ṣaḥabā because they neglected identifying the wāṣf, and did not seek the māwṣūf.”

And here’s Hussein bin Badr al-Din Al-Houthi, the brother of Abdul-Malik bin Badr al-Din Al-Houthi “speaking about Omar and Muawiya.”

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Simon the Canaanite