Zaidism

[Ali bin Hussein]

1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

This is same mistake that people did about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in his life time that put his name beside people like as Muawiah (la) you can label me as zealous ut I don’t put his name  & other Imam beside 3 caliphs other tyrant rulers to absorb in ummah in exchange of forgetting my principles but I still have respect for other sects althought I don’t accept their deviated ideas & at the end I know Zandi’s brothers & sisters closer than anybody to us but I don’t forgot my principles to digest by other sects .

Faint not nor grieve, for ye will overcome them if ye are (indeed) believers. (139)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/3:139

I understand your view. As 12er and Sunni views have limited compatibility. Zaidis don't but I can see how you see how we look like a group sitting on the fence. It's a valid argument.

But in essence Imam Ali showed how to act towards the first 3 and how to act to Muawiya. We try to follow his example.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Warilla

[786:)]

@Warilla can you shed some light on the Zaidi Ashura/Mourning rituals. This was one of the reasons I started to question myself when I was a 12er as a great deal of emphasis is placed on azadari rituals. I’m sure you can relate. So what do the Zaidis do in commemorating Muharram?

[Ali bin Hussein]

2 hours ago, 786:) said:

@Warilla can you shed some light on the Zaidi Ashura/Mourning rituals. This was one of the reasons I started to question myself when I was a 12er as a great deal of emphasis is placed on azadari rituals. I’m sure you can relate. So what do the Zaidis do in commemorating Muharram?

So the significance of Kerbala is in a way greater as we lost the last of the 5 inffalibles. But due to hadith of the Prophet quoted by Imam Zaid wailing and beating oneself is prohibited. There are no specific rituals.And no symbolism eg Alam, taboot etc. Attending lectures to here the events of Kerbala is fine.

I'm not sure about any specific Amaal namaz etc. Basically there is not much as our last infallible was Imam Hussein and there after Imams and scholars task is to convey the teachings and practices of them. Not to introduce inovation. 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Warilla

[Jaane Rabb]

58 minutes ago, Warilla said:

But due to hadith of the Prophet quoted by Imam Zaid wailing and beating oneself is prohibited.

Was that hadith related to a particular incident (like with the martyrdom of Hazrat Hamza) or was the ruling given generally?

From a 12er perspective, I came across hadith both for and against wailing and beating. Definitely nothing in favour for self flaggelation though.

What about in terms of marriage? Do Zaydies allow syed and non-syed mix marriages? Only ask because I'm pretty sure I came across a hadith in the 12er corpus which was attributed to Zayd ibn Ali whereby he didn't allow his daughter to marry someone due to them being outside the bloodline.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Jaane Ya Ali

[Jaane Rabb]

7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam one part of Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imams was being silent when one of their companions were doing something right ,by their silent they would approve their action or saying also beside that from time of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) ,Imams started to teach students that can answer questions of people for when people couldn’t have direct access to Imams (ams) that by a workable network they were keeping them up to date that in special cases people were asking rulling from their students in their area if they had true answer about it they would answer it if they didn’t have enough information about it the student was asking it from Imam through that network to receive answer from Imam instead of that people ask directly from an Imam (عليه السلام) 

Aqaid /Akhlaq class -Sh Nauru Muhammad -Lecture 3

q

That I can agree with; that the student relays the answer(s) given by the teacher. However, I've come across a hadith whereby some students would employ qiyas to answer questions that were new to them. Alas, they were rebuked by their Imam. But one would wonder how many students got away with giving incorrect answers due to self deduction.

If you also see the first link I posted in the message you quoted. You'll see a claim being made that liars from Kufa would make up rulings that would be attributed to the likes of as-Sadiq. I suppose this is one reason for the amount of contradictions found in hadith during this period.

Ps. I haven't got around to viewing your video yet.

[Fink]

I'm so happy people are finally searching for answers themselves . I left sectarianism at age 25 and never been happier. Things are so much more clear and you can study things objectively. 

We are in the midst of a revolution,  thanks to the Qur'an and technology that has presented different ideas to people across the world. 

We live in an Ummah that wants to put you in a box the minute you're born, teach you the innovations and the sectarian disease that their fathers believed in.

 

 

[Jaane Rabb]

7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I don’t put his name  & other Imam beside 3 caliphs other tyrant rulers to absorb in ummah

What are your opinions on al-Ridha accepting the post of crown prince (a position supposedly created by Muavia) of al-Mamun after being threatened? Al-Mamun had a war with his brother which weakened him. And there were other Alid rebellions taking place in places like Basri (and another place but I can't recall). And so it seems he wanted to strengthen his position by taking on al-Ridha, as a sort of endorsement of his position and to gain Alid support. (And maybe even due to some end of times beliefs)

Apparently the title Ridha was also given by al-Mamun. Then it is claimed that al-Mamun killed al-Ridha. That he/his servants washed al-Ridha's body and he was buried next to Harun Rashid (father of al-Mamun). But what I find extra confusing is why al-Jawad (a child at the time) would declare his Imamah to al-Mamun, after the latter was responsible for the murder of al-Jawad's father? I find this all very strange...

Edited February 15, 2019 by Jaane Ya Ali

[Leibniz]

@Warilla How the Zaidis view the companions other than the first three Caliphs?

[Ashvazdanghe]

8 hours ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

What are your opinions on al-Ridha accepting the post of crown prince (a position supposedly created by Muavia) of al-Mamun after being threatened? Al-Mamun had a war with his brother which weakened him. And there were other Alid rebellions taking place in places like Basri (and another place but I can't recall). And so it seems he wanted to strengthen his position by taking on al-Ridha, as a sort of endorsement of his position and to gain Alid support. (And maybe even due to some end of times beliefs)

Apparently the title Ridha was also given by al-Mamun. Then it is claimed that al-Mamun killed al-Ridha. That he/his servants washed al-Ridha's body and he was buried next to Harun Rashid (father of al-Mamun). But what I find extra confusing is why al-Jawad (a child at the time) would declare his Imamah to al-Mamun, after the latter was responsible for the murder of al-Jawad's father? I find this all very strange...

Salam Imam Said to Mamun that if caliphate is right of you & your father based on true claims so you can’t transfer it to me either it wasn’t your right & you take it by force without any right about it again you can’t offer it to me because you are no legitimate rulers from beginning also there is golden chain Hadith that Imam Reza(عليه السلام) said saying ‘la ilaha Al’ Allah ‘ is fortress of Allah & who enters it will not harm from wrath of Allah but when he started moving behind camel (for safety from enemies) said but it has conditions & acceptance of our Imamate is one of its conditions .

[Ali bin Hussein]

2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

when he started moving behind camel (for safety from enemies) said but it has conditions & acceptance of our Imamate is one of its conditions .

I've read the golden chain hadith it is as you quoted. But this final part I haven't come across. As far as I know the word Imam was not mentioned. And I have never come across the bit about moving behinde a camel for safety. Also Imam Rezza was quoting the Prophet that's why it the golden chain.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Warilla

[Ashvazdanghe]

26 minutes ago, Warilla said:

I've read the golden chain hadith it is as you quoted. But this final part I haven't come across. As far as I know the word Imam was not mentioned. And I have never come across the bit about moving behinde a camel for safety. Also Imam Rezza was quoting the Prophet that's why it the golden chain.

Salam the complete version of it refers to his Imamate & Imamate of other imamas but not mentioned in all sources but it exists youjust to search about it a bit more also he narrates chain from just Shia Imams until reaches Prophet Muhammad (pbu) for accepting the Hadith you must accept him & other Imams before him as trustworthy people that both Shia & Sunnis have no doubt about their right saying 

https://www.imamreza.net/old/eng/imamreza.php?id=6777

https://en.shafaqna.com/the-hadith-of-the-golden-chain-silsilat-al-dhahab-from-Imam-ridha-as/

http://www.ezsoftech.com/stories/imamraza3.asp

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Hadith_Silsilat_al-Dhahab

Edited February 15, 2019 by Ashvazdanghe

[Ali bin Hussein]

23 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Shia Imams until reaches Prophet Muhammad (pbu) for accepting the Hadith you must accept him & other Imams before him as trustworthy people that both Shia & Sunnis have no doubt about their right saying.

We accept all in the chain but not as inffalible 12er Imams. Sunni also accept the chain. Your final link is the version I have read.

"I heard my father Musa b. Ja'far (a)say that I heard my father Ja'far b. Muhammad (a)say that I heard my father Muhammad b. 'Ali (a) say that I heard my father 'Ali b. al-Husayn (a) say that I heard my father Husayn b. 'Ali (a) say that I heard my father Amir al-Mu'minin 'Ali b. Abi Talib (a) say that I heard God's Messenger (s) say that I heard Gabriel say that I heard God say that 'the sentence 'There is no God but God' is my stronghold, thus whomever enters my stronghold shall be safe from my punishment.'" As the Imam's (a) caravan began to move, he said aloud: "With its conditions, and I myself am one of those conditions."

The final part is either quoting the Prophet as in the Prophet is the condition or it is not part of the golden chain.

[Ashvazdanghe]

28 minutes ago, Warilla said:

We accept all in the chain but not as inffalible 12er Imams. Sunni also accept the chain. Your final link is the version I have read.

"I heard my father Musa b. Ja'far (a)say that I heard my father Ja'far b. Muhammad (a)say that I heard my father Muhammad b. 'Ali (a) say that I heard my father 'Ali b. al-Husayn (a) say that I heard my father Husayn b. 'Ali (a) say that I heard my father Amir al-Mu'minin 'Ali b. Abi Talib (a) say that I heard God's Messenger (s) say that I heard Gabriel say that I heard God say that 'the sentence 'There is no God but God' is my stronghold, thus whomever enters my stronghold shall be safe from my punishment.'" As the Imam's (a) caravan began to move, he said aloud: "With its conditions, and I myself am one of those conditions."

The final part is either quoting the Prophet as in the Prophet is the condition or it is not part of the golden chain.

Definitely he is main condition but non of Sunni leaders like as 3 caliphs don’t have any rule or right in this Hadith.

[Jaane Rabb]

23 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

The Qur'an is never separated from the pure progeny of the Prophet Muhamamd saww and alone looking into Qur'an  no one knows the truth and principles of the religion. This is what we see in the light of hadith of two weighty things ie hadith thaqalayn.

What is your belief regarding the Qur'an and in particular, its compilation. When was it compiled in book form and by whom?

Edited February 15, 2019 by Jaane Ya Ali

[Muslim2010]

31 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

What is your belief regarding the Qur'an and in particular, its compilation. When was it compiled in book form and by whom?

However it is Off topic and it needs a separate thread for details other than Imams of Zaidis under discussion here

But the Qur'an defines the principles of religion and detail about its verses  comes through the hadith and sayings of Ahl alabayt ie pure progeny of the Prophet saaw for implementation.

[786:)]

3 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

However it is Off topic and it needs a separate thread for details other than Imams of Zaidis under discussion here

But the Qur'an defines the principles of religion and detail about its verses  comes through the hadith and sayings of Ahl alabayt ie pure progeny of the Prophet saaw for implementation.

Do you agree you can’t prove which Imamate chain is correct from the Qur'an? Meaning you can’t prove 5 vs 7 vs 12.

[Muslim2010]

7 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Do you agree you can’t prove which Imamate chain is correct from the Qur'an? Meaning you can’t prove 5 vs 7 vs 12.

7 r belief is not able to quote a single verse that the Imam / caliphs/ successor  of the Prophet saaww can be chosen by the people instead of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

In the other thread there is no verse quoted yet to verify their claim of seven Imams only. 

how do you expect a person that he should not use the hadith for religion when the verses of Qur'an have defined the principle in various verses? Also when the Qur'an mentions many times to ponder over its verses then why one should not look into its logic and logical analysis?

The concept of immamat and 12 Imams is well proven in Qur'an. Hadith and further analysis on the verses of Qur'an like numerical research confirms it.

wsalam

Edited February 15, 2019 by skyweb1987

[Jaane Rabb]

1 hour ago, skyweb1987 said:

However it is Off topic and it needs a separate thread for details other than Imams of Zaidis under discussion here

But the Qur'an defines the principles of religion and detail about its verses  comes through the hadith and sayings of Ahl alabayt ie pure progeny of the Prophet saaw for implementation.

You literally could've answered the question in the same amount of words 

When do you believe the Qur'an was first compiled and by whom is all I'd like to know. Don't think we need a dedicated thread for that.

Fi Amanillah

[Muslim2010]

6 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

You literally could've answered the question in the same amount of words 

When do you believe the Qur'an was first compiled and by whom is all I'd like to know. Don't think we need a dedicated thread for that.

Fi Amanillah

Open a new thread for this discussion please. I have mentioned my words already for it

[786:)]

2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

The concept of immamat and 12 Imams is well proven in Qur'an. Hadith and further analysis on the verses of Qur'an like numerical research confirms it.

wsalam

So let me get this straight: You rely on numerical coincidences to establish matters of aqeedah?

[Ali bin Hussein]

2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

The concept of immamat and 12 Imams is well proven in Qur'an.

Can you expand on this ?

[Ali bin Hussein]

16 hours ago, Leibniz said:

@Warilla How the Zaidis view the companions other than the first three Caliphs?

We view as Imam Ali viewed them. Those he praised we praise. Those he showed patience with we keep silent on. Those he fought or cendemn we condemn.

Examples of each are Abu Dhar Ghafari, Umar khatab, Muawiya.

I'm not a historian so can't give an extensive list but if you use Imam Ali as a guide to judge companions you won't go wrong.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Warilla

[786:)]

4 minutes ago, Warilla said:

We view as Imam Ali viewed them. Those he praised we praise. Those he showed patience with we keep silent on. Those he fought or cendemn we condemn.

Examples of each are Abu Dhar Ghafari, Umar khatabi, Muawiya.

I'm not a historian so can't give an extensive blust but if you use Imam Ali as a guide to judge companions you won't go wrong.

I wish more 12ers would follow Imam Ali’s (عليه السلام) example instead of just raising his banner for sectarian reasons.

[Muslim2010]

11 hours ago, Warilla said:

Can you expand on this ?

The complete discussion on the topic has already been carried out in other thread. You may like to read about it. The link is given below:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235059322-refuting-from-imāmiyya-to-ithnā-ashariyya/

 

Edited February 16, 2019 by skyweb1987

[Ashvazdanghe]

11 hours ago, 786:) said:

I wish more 12ers would follow Imam Ali’s (عليه السلام) example instead of just raising his banner for sectarian reasons.

we are on true path other sects must become coherant with us not us with them although every time we 12ers are leaders of unity & anti sectarianism but  it doesn't mean that we forget our principles to satisfy other sects.

[Ali bin Hussein]

On 2/11/2019 at 12:23 PM, skyweb1987 said:

Does it mean that Zaidis are from Shafii school of thought and they share only first three Imams with Shia Twelvers?

We share Imam Ali, Imam Hassan,Imam Hussein, Imam zain Al Abidern, Imam Ali Rezza.

But only first 3 are infallible.

And Imam jafferi Sadiq and Muhammad Baqir are seen as Imams in every aspect except political action and open call to follow them. 

[Muslim2010]

13 minutes ago, Warilla said:

We share Imam Ali, Imam Hassan,Imam Hussein, Imam zain Al Abidern, Imam Ali Rezza.

But only first 3 are infallible.

And Imam jafferi Sadiq and Muhammad Baqir are seen as Imams in every aspect except political action and open call to follow them. 

Thanks for explanation.

The concept of Infallibility needs that no fallible caliph or Imam can be successor of Infallible Prophet or an infallible lmam. For example  Imam Ali as an infallible is the successor of infallible Prophet or Imam Hassan AS is successor of an infallible Imam Ali AS. But this is not considered case for Imam Zain ul Abideen AS (as per Zaidys thought fallible) is successor of Imam Hussain AS who is an infallible Imam . I see a clear contradiction here..

[Ali bin Hussein]

2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Thanks for explanation.

The concept of Infallibility needs that no fallible caliph or Imam can be successor of Infallible Prophet or an infallible lmam.

I see a clear contradiction here..

It's only a contradiction if you hold the above statement. Zaidis don't hold to that belief. What is your evidence for your statement?

[Muslim2010]

5 minutes ago, Warilla said:

It's only a contradiction if you hold the above statement. Zaidis don't hold to that belief. What is your evidence for your statement?

We share Imam Ali, Imam Hassan,Imam Hussein, Imam zain Al Abidern, Imam Ali Rezza.

But only first 3 are infallible.

And Imam jafferi Sadiq and Muhammad Baqir are seen as Imams in every aspect except political action and open call to follow them. 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235059035-zaidism/?do=findComment&comment=3199980

Edited February 18, 2019 by skyweb1987

[Ali bin Hussein]

I'm not sure what reposting my my messages achiebves. If my question made no sense I'll try again. What is your evidence that inffalible Imams can only have infallible successors ?

If I haven't understood your answer please excuse my ignorance and kindly explain ?

[Ali bin Hussein]

On 2/15/2019 at 1:43 AM, Jaane Ya Ali said:

Was that hadith related to a particular incident (like with the martyrdom of Hazrat Hamza) or was the ruling given generally?

From a 12er perspective, I came across hadith both for and against wailing and beating. Definitely nothing in favour for self flaggelation though.

What about in terms of marriage? Do Zaydies allow syed and non-syed mix marriages? Only ask because I'm pretty sure I came across a hadith in the 12er corpus which was attributed to Zayd ibn Ali whereby he didn't allow his daughter to marry someone due to them being outside the bloodline.

Marriage between Sayed and non Sayed is permissible as with 12er. I will look into the hadith.

[Jaane Rabb]

18 hours ago, Warilla said:

Marriage between Sayed and non Sayed is permissible as with 12er. I will look into the hadith.

There's two groups on the issue with both citing anything and everything to prove their point. The 12er community I used to go to are against such marriages. Pretty much everyone on my side of the family hold the same view too. Then there was a document going around to prove it to be haraam. That's where I read the hadith attributed to Zayd ibn Ali. But safe to say, I dismissed the doc quick enough when it made the claim that Surah aal-e-Imran refers to Abu Talib and his family 

[Ashvazdanghe]

18 hours ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

I dismissed the doc quick enough when it made the claim that Surah aal-e-Imran refers to Abu Talib and his family

Salam this is not only surah in Qur'an that mentions this for example Suarh Maeda completely refers to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) also as I said before marrying between Sayed & non Sayed is a normal marriage in Iran but as I know people in indo/pak  are more conservative about this matter but there is no real evidence that says it's not allowed , this issue more based on culture & history background of each nation not religion , in Iran the sayeds were trying to spread their bloodline so they were marrying with non sayeds but in  indo/pak they were trying to don't digest in non Muslim community of India  so they stand against marrying Sayed with new converts that weren't non sayeds to keep their heritage that after centuries  it becomes a law  in that region.

[Jaane Rabb]

4 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam this is not only surah in Qur'an that mentions this

Reading surah aal-e-Imran, I think it's clear who this surah is about:

[3:35] When a woman of Imran said: My Lord! surely I vow to Thee what is in my womb, to be devoted (to Thy service); accept therefore from me, surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing.

[3:36] So when she brought forth, she said: My Lord! Surely I have brought it forth a female-- and Allah knew best what she brought forth-- and the male is not like the female, and I have named it Marium, and I commend her and her offspring into Thy protection from the accursed Shaitan.

4 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I know people in indo/pak  are more conservative about this matter but there is no real evidence that says it's not allowed , this issue more based on culture & history background of each nation not religion , in Iran the sayeds were trying to spread their bloodline so they were marrying with non sayeds but in  indo/pak they were trying to don't digest in non Muslim community of India  so they stand against marrying Sayed with new converts that weren't non sayeds to keep their heritage that after centuries  it becomes a law  in that region.

I completely agree that it is a cultural addition. I belong to a family of Naqvi sayeds [wallahu alam] and they are staunch believers in these marriages being haraam [sayed girl marrying non-syed specifically]. One argument they use is with al Kazim having 21/22 daughters none of which married 'due to there being no sayeds' around. I however believe it to be due to the political climate and the anti-Alid sentiment at the time.

Alas, to them their religion, to me mine.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Jaane Ya Ali

[Jaane Rabb]

@Warilla

What are Zaidi views on 'the burning of the house/door of Fatima'? Specifically, do you believe the event took place?