Zaidism

[Leibniz]

2 minutes ago, Warilla said:

I agree but 12er will point to "early" scripture like the Book of Sulaym ibn Qays

The book is not reliable and I am sure no serious Shia would quote it as a reference. The confusions and disputes regarding the number Imams and who should be the next Imam is alone sufficient to prove that there was no such concept in the early days of Imamah.

[786:)]

23 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

The book is not reliable and I am sure no serious Shia would quote it as a reference. The confusions and disputes regarding the number Imams and who should be the next Imam is alone sufficient to prove that there was no such concept in the early days of Imamah.

The serious Shia who die by the door incident sure quote it.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

2 hours ago, Leibniz said:

The "12 Imams" is a later day theological invention which is in a sharp contradiction with history.

For me it ties to the Sunni/Shia narration of 12 successors. If not them, then who else?

There at least is some uniform structure of imamate (within and among 12ers at least) and coming from my previous Sunni background, I think a step further to being non-12er, I would be a minority within a minority. And that feels a bit like a religious wilderness to me if that sort of makes sense and seems too exclusive to be the Haqq.

I also like how 12ers at least know the Imam of our time, again a shared narration which emphasises the importance of that.

Maybe as I found comfort in previously being part of a majority I still carry that thinking with me. 

Ultimately I'm content with accepting 12 Imams but that's me.

[Laayla]

4 hours ago, 786:) said:

To be honest, I just consider myself a Muslim. I consider Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to be the righful successor. I do not totally subscribe to one sect or subsect as that can lead to bias. I look for ideas that most closely reflect the words of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). I believe imamate at its early stages was the equivalent to what the marjah system is today. This is evident by the number of Shia subsects that formed—very similar to what taqleed is today.

After reading this post, now I understand your opinions in previous threads.

I take it you are not usuli then?

[Fink]

To add to 786s post,

Had Imam Ali as been the successor and perhaps Hassan and Hussein AS , things wouldve ended up much better overall. This is assuming people wouldve followed them and not rebelled. 

But thats not evidence for 12er Imamah. That is a later invention. 

Salam

[Ali bin Hussein]

1 hour ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

 I think a step further to being non-12er, I would be a minority within a minority. And that feels a bit like a religious wilderness to me if that sort of makes sense and seems too exclusive to be the Haqq.

It's the opposite for me 12er felt like a cult. Where as being zaidi feels like another Madhab with the four others. I feel part of the ummah. And I feel I represent the Ahlul Bayt in the truest sense.

[Ali bin Hussein]

13 minutes ago, Fink said:

To add to 786s post,

Had Imam Ali as been the successor and perhaps Hassan and Hussein AS , things wouldve ended up much better overall.

I think there would not have been zaidi or 12er or Sunni

[Jaane Rabb]

6 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

His all claims have been refuted in the other thread.

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235059322-refuting-from-imāmiyya-to-ithnā-ashariyya/?do=findComment&comment=3198137

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235059322-refuting-from-imāmiyya-to-ithnā-ashariyya/?do=findComment&comment=3198140

 

Actually, seeing you cherry pick which of my questions to answer I decided not to engage any further in the debate.

I come to Shiachat to learn. You may gather that from the number of posts I have since being a member in 2004.

I was born and brought up as a twelver. Lived devoutly and religiously as a twelver for over 30 years. But delving deeper into my beliefs and history was the changing point. When you see things from a critical angle, then you see problems.

Alas, I lost certainty as a twelver a couple years back. I don't adhere to any sect at the moment and not planning to either. I am a Muslim, a Mu'min and strive to live as the righteous defined in [2:177]. If others want to separate and call themselves a different label then that's their prerogative.

I believe the Qur'an as the only infallible source available to us, which dictates the fundamentals of one's belief. It calls itself "kitabin mubin" [clear book] repeated so I seek Allah's guidance through it and its clear verses. Of course, one is always a student of the Qur'an and so my studies are a continuous journey.

In the end, it's about using reason as mentioned numerous times in the Qur'an. I endeavour to use that aql to my capacity inshaAllah. But without His (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guidance, we are just lost souls. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide us all to the ultimate truth.

Fi Amanillah.

[Leibniz]

2 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

For me it ties to the Sunni/Shia narration of 12 successors. If not them, then who else?

There at least is some uniform structure of imamate (within and among 12ers at least) and coming from my previous Sunni background, I think a step further to being non-12er, I would be a minority within a minority. And that feels a bit like a religious wilderness to me if that sort of makes sense and seems too exclusive to be the Haqq.

I also like how 12ers at least know the Imam of our time, again a shared narration which emphasises the importance of that.

Maybe as I found comfort in previously being part of a majority I still carry that thinking with me. 

Ultimately I'm content with accepting 12 Imams but that's me.

There is a rhetorical refutation of that Hadith of the 12 Caliphs in Sunni literature. For Shias , why was not this Hadith quoted against the 5vers , 7ers and all the various sects which sprung after the demise of each Imam and some very sincere Shias getting into schism and utter confusion?

The argument is that there must be an Imam , a divine and infallible one to lead the Ummah or the Ummah shall get distracted. The Ummah did get distracted despite the Sunni Caliphs and the Shia Imams. Worse in the case of Shias as most of the schism with in Shiasm appeared due to Imamah itself. Of what good is an Imam living in Madinah or Baghdad who can't declare himself to be Imam publicly and unequivocally for a Muslim living in 8th century Africa? 

As far as the occult Imam , he is Imam since the last the last 1100 years. He is disconnected from the practical world and one can just believe in him as an article of faith. What purpose does this belief serve in face of the purpose of Imamah that there must be an Imam in every times ? None. 

For all practical purposes , the Aga Khanian concept of present Imam is far better if one takes into account the purpose of Imamah. Atleast  you see the Imam , he publicly claims to be Imam , he has some authority and he is leading his community in some form and shape.

For me , the Sunni doctrine of Adool Sahaba and the Shia doctrine of 12 infallible Imams are equally puritan fantasized concepts and I am of the opinion that 'mere Islam' is enough for salvation ie  belief in one God , finality of Prophethood , life hereafter and Islamic morals.

 

 

[Fink]

15 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

There is a rhetorical refutation of that Hadith of the 12 Caliphs in Sunni literature. For Shias , why was not this Hadith quoted against the 5vers , 7ers and all the various sects which sprung after the demise of each Imam and some very sincere Shias getting into schism and utter confusion?

The argument is that there must be an Imam , a divine and infallible one to lead the Ummah or the Ummah shall get distracted. The Ummah did get distracted despite the Sunni Caliphs and the Shia Imams. Worse in the case of Shias as most of the schism with in Shiasm appeared due to Imamah itself. Of what good is an Imam living in Madinah or Baghdad who can't declare himself to be Imam publicly and unequivocally for a Muslim living in 8th century Africa? 

As far as the occult Imam , he is Imam since the last the last 1100 years. He is disconnected from the practical world and one can just believe in him as an article of faith. What purpose does this belief serve in face of the purpose of Imamah that there must be an Imam in every times ? None. 

For all practical purposes , the Aga Khanian concept of present Imam is far better if one takes into account the purpose of Imamah. Atleast  you see the Imam , he publicly claims to be Imam , he has some authority and he is leading his community in some form and shape.

For me , the Sunni doctrine of Adool Sahaba and the Shia doctrine of 12 infallible Imams are equally puritan fantasized concepts and I am of the opinion that 'mere Islam' is enough for salvation ie  belief in one God , finality of Prophethood , life hereafter and Islamic morals.

 

 

Excellent. Furthermore , The vague hadith of 12 Caliphs/ Imams never became a practical reality. Between the divisions and Fitns , it is not a hujjah upon anyone - especially as the hadith describes Islam standing strong or azeez. 

 

[Jaane Rabb]

1 hour ago, Leibniz said:

As far as the occult Imam , he is Imam since the last the last 1100 years. He is disconnected from the practical world and one can just believe in him as an article of faith. What purpose does this belief serve in face of the purpose of Imamah that there must be an Imam in every times ? None.

This was the biggest proof against the 12er concept of imamah for me. I was told to think "rationally"; That how can Muhammad [saw] leave the ummah without a divine leader. Rationally it makes sense. But then doesn't when you realise you live in an era where there is no divine leader to perform his duty of guidance and hasn't been since over a 1000 years.

The 12ers have simply adopted a similar system of electing leaders, albeit under a different name; Marjaiyyat. Now evolving to Wilayat al Faqih in certain parts of the world. Rumour has it, they even believe in his ismah in inner circles. Have you seen the burial place of his predecessor? Any outsider would think he was an infallible Imam with the treatment his tomb is getting.

[Ashvazdanghe]

8 hours ago, Fink said:

But thats not evidence for 12er Imamah. That is a later invention. 

Salam , it's evidence nultiple time proved by both Sunni & Shia strong sources that every Muslim accepted their validity

 

7 hours ago, Warilla said:

It's the opposite for me 12er felt like a cult. Where as being zaidi feels like another Madhab with the four others. I feel part of the ummah. And I feel I represent the Ahlul Bayt in the truest sense.

we don't try to be part of Ummah by forgeting our priciple but we cooperate with rest of Ummah to keep unity between Muslims without loosing our principles all Shia Imams (عليه السلام) were respecting every Muslims & non Muslim but they were firm on their right 

6 hours ago, Leibniz said:

There is a rhetorical refutation of that Hadith of the 12 Caliphs in Sunni literature. For Shias , why was not this Hadith quoted against the 5vers , 7ers and all the various sects which sprung after the demise of each Imam and some very sincere Shias getting into schism and utter confusion?

it may be refuted by some people but it's accepted there would be 12 Caliphs by all Muslims even wahabist tried to match it with Ummayid & Abbasids caliphs but they failed & differnte groups of them can't reach to a single list of them only 12ers have a fixed list that is proven multiple times 

 

6 hours ago, Leibniz said:

As far as the occult Imam , he is Imam since the last the last 1100 years. He is disconnected from the practical world and one can just believe in him as an article of faith. What purpose does this belief serve in face of the purpose of Imamah that there must be an Imam in every times ? None. 

he is present in our current time & life the calssical response is that he is like as sun behind dense cloud but it's still presents & keeps everything alive althought it's ray doesn't reach to Earth through dense clouds but still has it's affection for keeping life on Earth 

 

6 hours ago, Leibniz said:

For all practical purposes , the Aga Khanian concept of present Imam is far better if one takes into account the purpose of Imamah. Atleast  you see the Imam , he publicly claims to be Imam , he has some authority and he is leading his community in some form and shape.

with respect to Ismailis the Aga Khanina Imams have dark history of spying for britain & betraying their people to gain worldly wealth, they aren't qualified people for imamate that inherit their imamate as an inheritance from their forefathers althought Shia Imams inherite imamate by bloodline but also they have Qualification for Imamate  both worldly authority & unseen authority that includes whole of universe that no other human except them can claim it that some frauds are trying to mimic it through Magic & other stuff but after a while they exposed that are frauds.

[Ashvazdanghe]

5 hours ago, Fink said:

Excellent. Furthermore , The vague hadith of 12 Caliphs/ Imams never became a practical reality. Between the divisions and Fitns , it is not a hujjah upon anyone - especially as the hadith describes Islam standing strong or azeez. 

 

Salam it's vague for you not a true r.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

@Qa'im brother as you have researched and written on the 12th Imam aj, which related to the most recent posts in this thread, perhaps you can weigh in and shed some light on this?

[Ali bin Hussein]

4 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

We don't try to be part of Ummah by forgeting our priciple but we cooperate with rest of Ummah to keep unity between Muslims without loosing our principles all Shia Imams (عليه السلام) were respecting every Muslims & non Muslim but they were firm on their right .

That works in principle. I felt the same when I believed I was on the truth. But now on looking back since it's no longer the truth for me it feels like it was more cultish (very subjective).

I agree about the Shia Imams that we agree upon. But further down history there was oppression and intolerance from all sides. Normally depending on who had the power.

As a zaidi we try to emulate Imam Ali who upheld the principles of Islam but was part of the ummah always guiding the people and caliphs.

We also have no problem intigrating without compromising our beliefs, as out rulings which go back to Prophet, Imam Ali and Ahlul Bayt are similar to the Sunnis eg Salat 

This is alot harder for Sunni and 12er as there are a lot of extreme views on both sides.

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Warilla

[Ali bin Hussein]

10 hours ago, Leibniz said:

 For all practical purposes , the Aga Khanian concept of present Imam is far better if one takes into account the purpose of Imamah. Atleast  you see the Imam , he publicly claims to be Imam , he has some authority and he is leading his community in some form and shape.

I disagree the concept of 12 Imams and the final being in occultation makes sense and chaos followed by a Messiah return is in multiple religions. So an occultation or period of "absence" is nessary if the 12 er stance is looked at as a whole.

Ismaili Imams don't hold up the principles of Islam. Their leadership is similar to any modern leader they offer nothing special.

 

[Ali bin Hussein]

9 hours ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

This was the biggest proof against the 12er concept of imamah for me. I was told to think "rationally"; That how can Muhammad [saw] leave the ummah without a divine leader. Rationally it makes sense. But then doesn't when you realise you live in an era where there is no divine leader to perform his duty of guidance and hasn't been since over a 1000 yearss

Although I left 12er this was never a problem. There have been gaps between Prophets. And the return of a saviour requires a period of chaos. 

The principle is not strange initself if you look at it from a religious perspective. Qur'an has examples of people who were placed outside of time. 

If you can accept that the Prophet of whole of mankind for the rest of time was confined to Arabia for 60+ years then you can accept an Imam functioning for humanity detached from our concept of space and time.

Allah know best.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Warilla

[Leibniz]

4 minutes ago, Warilla said:

I disagree the concept of 12 Imams and the final being in occultation makes sense and chaos followed by a Messiah return is in multiple religions. So an occultation or period of "absence" is nessary if the 12 er stance is looked at as a whole.

Ismaili Imams don't hold up the principles of Islam. Their leadership is similar to any modern leader they offer nothing special.

 

That's the Sunni concept of Mahdi , a reviver who shall appear in the end of times and correct the affairs but for Shias Mahdi is the 12th Imam and they make the argument that the world can never be deprived of an Imam hence Mahdi is the current Imam.

I don't agree with all the things the current Aga Khan does but in terms of current Imam , he serves a better purpose than Mahdi. He is leading his community , providing his community with a lot of social services , you can meet him and (may be) ask him theological questions as well. I am not saying that Aga Khan is a theologically valid Imam but if there had to be an Imam it would be something like him atleast.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

14 minutes ago, Warilla said:

We also have no problem intigrating without compromising our beliefs, as out rulings which go back to Prophet, Imam Ali and Ahlul Bayt are similar to the Sunnis eg Salat 

I understand your other points in this post, but wouldn't hold similar salat and wudhu as Sunnis as being indicative of authenticity.

Especially as the 2 oldest founders of Sunni muthahib were students of Imam Jafar as Sadiq (عليه السلام) and of those 2, Imam Malik as with the 6th Imam spent their lives in the City of the Prophet among descendents of those who lived with the Prophet, yet are the only 2 who pray with hands unfolded.

As I mentioned in another thread, I feel the Jafaari mathab is most accurate on wudhu as per the Qur'an and certainly moat likely how the Prophet would have performed it in an archaic society, ie not leaving your arms under a running tap, washing the whole feet, etc.

These are seemingly trivial matters, I concede, but enough for me to single out the Jafaari mathab as being most accurate and arguably pre-dating the 4 Sunni mathabs, considering the founder of the Jafaari mathab was already teaching before Maliki and Hanifi existed. Moreover the knowledge of the 6th Imam is more trustworthy than the 4, as it is a direct link to the Prophet and his progeny as

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

7 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

That's the Sunni concept of Mahdi , a reviver who shall appear in the end of times and correct the affairs but for Shias Mahdi is the 12th Imam and they make the argument that the world can never be deprived of an Imam hence Mahdi is the current Imam.

 

Not solely a Sunni concept. That pretty much is also the concept and mission of the Mahdi according to 12ers too. No one emphasises "Adalah" more than them after all. Change one word to "reappear" and it is exactly the same.

In addition to that, as you said he is accepted as Imam of our age.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

[Ali bin Hussein]

I just want to add this thread is brilliant. The way we are having a respectful open discussion while holding firm to our beliefs yet conceding when we are wrong is great. I'm Learning alot. Inshallah it continues.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

I know right. All from one user resurrecting an old thread with barely any responses.

[Leibniz]

Just now, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Not solely a Sunni concept. That pretty much is also the concept and mission of the Mahdi according to 12ers too. No one emphasises "Adalah" more than them after all.

In addition to that, as you said he is accepted as Imam of our age.

From a personal perspective I neither believe in the Sunni Mahdi nor the Shia Mahdi but there is a particular difference between the two.

In Sunni Hadith literature Mahdi is referred to as Al-Mahdi and no where "Imam" Mahdi. Mahdi for Sunnis is eschatological character who shall appear before the end of times and he has no religious binding other than that. He is not present , he can not hear us or respond to out calls , we can not fasten his appearance and he is not an Imam. Mahdi is not mentioned as a basic article of faith in Sunnism and some prominent Sunni scholars like Ibn Khaldun have negated and castigated this belief , alluding that the Mahdi hadiths were forged by the Abbasid to support the black flags from Khorasan scenario of Abu Muslim.

For Shias , the Mahdi is an altogether different figure. He is the 12th Imam who was born and is still alive. He is still the Imam and he can hear us , respond to our calls and we have to make the ground ready to fasten his appearance. Negating his existence would take one outside the fold of Shiasm etc.

[Ali bin Hussein]

6 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

 For Shias , the Mahdi is an altogether different figure. He is the 12th Imam who was born and is still alive. He is still the Imam and he can hear us , respond to our calls and we have to make the ground ready to fasten his appearance. Negating his existence would take one outside the fold of Shiasm etc.

Out side of 12er the Mahdi for zaidi and early Shia history is similar to the Sunni stance.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

7 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

Hadith literature Mahdi is referred to as Al-Mahdi and no where "Imam" Mahdi.

Valid points and I agree. Just a side point. He would arguably be the final Caliph/Imam for Sunnis.

Traditional Sunnis from the sub-continent refer to "Imam Ali" and "Imam Hussain" you'd find while obviously having a different conception. I notice he is just referred to as "Ali ra" by contemporary Ahlus Sunnah/Salafis for the most part.

Interestingly enough on the Salafi IslamQ and A site the questioner and answerer refer to Imam Mahdi:

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/43840/the-truth-about-the-Mahdi-and-the-order-in-which-the-portents-of-the-hour-will-appear

[786:)]

14 hours ago, Laayla said:

After reading this post, now I understand your opinions in previous threads.

I take it you are not usuli then?

No. I clearly stated I don’t not bind myself to a particular sect or subsect.

Edited February 14, 2019 by 786:)

[Ali bin Hussein]

1 hour ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Especially as the 2 oldest founders of Sunni muthahib were students of Imam Jafar as Sadiq (عليه السلام) and of those 2, Imam Malik as with the 6th Imam spent their lives in the City of the Prophet among descendents of those who lived with the Prophet, yet are the only 2 who pray with hands unfolded.

 

The way of praying with hands open has been the norm in Medina as you pointed out. But Zaidi Hadith predate 12er hadith from Imam Sadiq. we pray with hands open as well. Also apart from the time issues, hadith of jafferi madhab originate in kufa.

"Imam" Malik was Imam jaffer Sadiq student and taught hands open final salam no concept of turbah and wash feet

Imam Zaid was Imam jaffer sadiqs uncle and also taught above points.

The most educated neutral opinion would be Imam jaffer Sadiq prayed and did wudhoo like his uncle and student.

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Warilla

[Jaane Rabb]

2 hours ago, Warilla said:

Although I left 12er this was never a problem. There have been gaps between Prophets. And the return of a saviour requires a period of chaos. 

Agreed. So why can't we have that scenario straight after Muhammad's [saw] departure without a present hidden Imam? Whether hidden or non-existent, the outcome is still the same; chaos.

Quote

The principle is not strange initself if you look at it from a religious perspective. Qur'an has examples of people who were placed outside of time.

I'm looking at it from a guidance perspective, which is the primary function of an Imam. I'm having to resort to the Qur'an and other fallible sources for guidance [though I try to keep their influence minimal]. So what use is a hidden Imam to me?

Quote

If you can accept that the Prophet of whole of mankind for the rest of time was confined to Arabia for 60+ years then you can accept an Imam functioning for humanity detached from our concept of space and time.

Muhammad [saw] sent missionaries, the likes of Ja'far ibn Abi Talib. People were also free to visit Muhammad [saw]. Neither of which are true with a hidden Imam.

On a side note. The generally view [maybe not yours] is that Isa [a] didn't die and will return. It seems there's a minority view in 12ers with the likes of Sheikh Sudooq and Fayd al-Kashani [Ref: Nakshawani] that Isa [a] did die, just not by the hands of the Jews.

[Muslim2010]

15 hours ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

Actually, seeing you cherry pick which of my questions to answer I decided not to engage any further in the debate.

I come to Shiachat to learn. You may gather that from the number of posts I have since being a member in 2004.

I was born and brought up as a twelver. Lived devoutly and religiously as a twelver for over 30 years. But delving deeper into my beliefs and history was the changing point. When you see things from a critical angle, then you see problems.

Alas, I lost certainty as a twelver a couple years back. I don't adhere to any sect at the moment and not planning to either. I am a Muslim, a Mu'min and strive to live as the righteous defined in [2:177]. If others want to separate and call themselves a different label then that's their prerogative.

I believe the Qur'an as the only infallible source available to us, which dictates the fundamentals of one's belief. It calls itself "kitabin mubin" [clear book] repeated so I seek Allah's guidance through it and its clear verses. Of course, one is always a student of the Qur'an and so my studies are a continuous journey.

In the end, it's about using reason as mentioned numerous times in the Qur'an. I endeavour to use that aql to my capacity inshaAllah. But without His (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guidance, we are just lost souls. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide us all to the ultimate truth.

The answer to your questions has been mentioned in the light of other verses of Qur'an  and without ponder over those it may be considered as cheery picking.

The religion and belief have foundation in the Qur'an and hadith of the Prophet saww instead of history. Though history provides the record of events occurred earlier but to get the truth one has to look the two sources ie Qur'an and hadith.

The verse 2:177 defines some characteristics of Muslims but it does not mean that one should keep the eyes closed from the other verses of Qur'an providing the explanation of the principles of religion.

The Qur'an is never separated from the pure progeny of the Prophet Muhamamd saww and alone looking into Qur'an  no one knows the truth and principles of the religion. This is what we see in the light of hadith of two weighty things ie hadith thaqalayn.

wasalam

Edited February 14, 2019 by skyweb1987

[Jaane Rabb]

2 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

These are seemingly trivial matters, I concede, but enough for me to single out the Jafaari mathab as being most accurate and arguably pre-dating the 4 Sunni mathabs, considering the founder of the Jafaari mathab was already teaching before Maliki and Hanifi existed. Moreover the knowledge of the 6th Imam is more trustworthy than the 4, as it is a direct link to the Prophet and his progeny as

Taking fiqhi rulings is one thing. But taking an aqeeda is another. Did you know, that the majority of the 12ers fiqhi narrations are via Waqifi narrators? So the Waqifi are reliable for taking fiqhi matters. But when it comes to discussing their aqeeda, then they're unreliable.

Then, there's other scenarios to think about. One that perhaps al-Sadiq didn't claim the type of Imamat as 12ers claim and instead it was attributed to him. Muhammad Abdullah ibn Yafur, a prominent scholar of Kufa (Najashi 213, Kashhi 162), who was very close to al-Sadiq (Kulayni 6:464 and Kashhi 10) was praised highly by the Imams. Al-Sadiq was completely satisfied with him (ibid 246, 249, 250). But Ibn Yafur simply considered the Imams to be 'ulema abrar atqiya', pious God-fearing scholars.

Another famous scholar, Ibn Qiba Ar-Razi held the same view (Naqd Kitab Al-Ishha 34). He was a figure so high in the Shia community that Najashi, Tusi and Hilli put his name in the beginning of the list of authorities of the Shia school, who agreement was essential for ijma' (concensus) for any religious question (Shafi 1:127 and 2:323).

There seems to be many contradictory hadith appearing during the time of as-Sadiq as well. Feel free to read these. Just food for thought:

https://islamistruth.wordpress.com/2012/06/10/the-contradictions-of-shiasm/

https://islamistruth.wordpress.com/2012/04/30/infallible-Imam-slams-taqqiyah-against-the-wall/

Fi Amanillah

[Ali bin Hussein]

1 hour ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

Agreed. So why can't we have that scenario straight after Muhammad's [saw] departure without a present hidden Imam? Whether hidden or non-existent, the outcome is still the same; chaos.

We can, or after the 5 the or the 7th or the 12th. My point being there is nothing inherently wrong with 12er theory. An Imam in occultation can still have a value.

Allah choose to complete his message in medieval Arabia but could have chosen any time and location. 

I follow zaidi not because there theory makes sense or is superior to Sunni or 12er or Ismaili. But simply due to there fundamentals of usool and Madhab have the most evidence.

[Ashvazdanghe]

7 hours ago, Warilla said:

We also have no problem intigrating without compromising our beliefs, as out rulings which go back to Prophet, Imam Ali and Ahlul Bayt are similar to the Sunnis eg Salat 

 

This is same mistake that people did about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in his life time that put his name beside people like as Muawiah (la) you can label me as zealous ut I don’t put his name  & other Imam beside 3 caliphs other tyrant rulers to absorb in ummah in exchange of forgetting my principles but I still have respect for other sects althought I don’t accept their deviated ideas & at the end I know Zandi’s brothers & sisters closer than anybody to us but I don’t forgot my principles to digest by other sects .

Faint not nor grieve, for ye will overcome them if ye are (indeed) believers. (139)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/3:139

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

2 hours ago, Warilla said:

I follow zaidi not because there theory makes sense or is superior to Sunni or 12er or Ismaili. But simply due to there fundamentals of usool and Madhab have the most evidence.

I mean you would not follow something unless you believed it to be the truth. I know numbers isn't an argument per se (as Imami Shias are much smaller in number than Sunnis), but if we go by Wiki's 2014 estimate of 0.5% or even being generous and say 1% of Muslims are Zaidi, it seems rather exclusive for that to be the true Islam (I know those were not your words but end of the day it is one of the "73" sects, all of which claim the truth). And from what I read there are 3 main branches within Zaidis, do you follow one in particular?

The only English resource for information/dawah appears to be this one simple wordpress website, with very little key literature having been translated for the wider non Arabic speaking world, there's like 2 sections (purity and prayer) of the Musnad on Tashayu. It is all too obscure to me.

Also when it is said Zaidiya are the oldest Shia sect, how exactly is that deduced? Wasn't it a matter of some of those same early Shias simply going onto following Imam al Baqir (عليه السلام) rather than his contemporary and brother Imam Zaid (عليه السلام) ? 

How do you reconcile accepting Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) despite him not taking up arms against the corrupt ruler of his age, who also waged war against his father (عليه السلام)? I thought that was a pre requisite of the Imam for Zaidis?

Edited February 14, 2019 by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

[Ashvazdanghe]

3 hours ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

Taking fiqhi rulings is one thing. But taking an aqeeda is another. Did you know, that the majority of the 12ers fiqhi narrations are via Waqifi narrators? So the Waqifi are reliable for taking fiqhi matters. But when it comes to discussing their aqeeda, then they're unreliable

Salam one part of Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imams was being silent when one of their companions were doing something right ,by their silent they would approve their action or saying also beside that from time of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) ,Imams started to teach students that can answer questions of people for when people couldn’t have direct access to Imams (ams) that by a workable network they were keeping them up to date that in special cases people were asking rulling from their students in their area if they had true answer about it they would answer it if they didn’t have enough information about it the student was asking it from Imam through that network to receive answer from Imam instead of that people ask directly from an Imam (عليه السلام) 

Aqaid /Akhlaq class -Sh Nauru Muhammad -Lecture 3

q

[Ali bin Hussein]

51 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Also when it is said Zaidiya are the oldest Shia sect, how exactly is that deduced? Wasn't it a matter of some of those same early Shias simply going onto following Imam al Baqir (عليه السلام) rather than his contemporary and brother Imam Zaid (عليه السلام) ? 

How do you reconcile accepting Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) despite him not taking up arms against the corrupt ruler of his age, who also waged war against his father (عليه السلام)? I thought that was a pre requisite of the Imam for Zaidis?

The numbers point I don't really have an answer for as such a small percentage can be off putting. But they were the majority of Shia at one stage. Which also meant nothing.

Are they the oldest Shia? I don't know 100% but they have the oldest hadith collections compared to other Shia, and current zaidi reflect earliest Shia views from what I've read. 

Resources are a problem at the moment but I'm following my basics. (which I did as a 12er). And online resource and zaidi forum for Al  rassi foundation have answered most the questions I can think of.

As for Imam Hassan. He is of the 5 infallibles. And a divinely designated Imam. The conditions you mention of for fallible Imams after Imam Hussein. So no reconcilation is needed.