Zaidism

[Jin Jin]

How much zaidi Shias differ in  beliefs from other Shias? I want to know similarities and differences. A lot live in Yemen.

[Ashvazdanghe]

Salam in general about first  three Imam (as) we have same opinion but about forth Imam (as) Zaidis say that Imam must be from their progeny but he must rise against tyrant ruler without Taqiya with sword or any weapon & they follow Shafii school of taught for applying rules.

[Muslim2010]

Does it mean that Zaidis are from Shafii school of thought and they share only first three Imams with Shia Twelvers?

[786:)]

They are the original Shias. They prefer Imam Ali (عليه السلام) over all the companions. However, they do not curse the companions. The cursing of companions was instituted much later down the road—ironically it was the sunnah of Muawiyah.

[Ashvazdanghe]

1 hour ago, skyweb1987 said:

Does it mean that Zaidis are from Shafii school of thought and they share only first three Imams with Shia Twelvers?

Salam shafii’s have more joint points with Shias & Zandi’s we’re getting rules from Imams before adverting of Shafii school of taught but because of avoiding  isolation from other schools after that shifted to Shafii but in recent years they slowly are  backing to original Shia beliefs 

[power]

25 minutes ago, 786:) said:

They are the original Shias. They prefer Imam Ali (عليه السلام) over all the companions. However, they do not curse the companions. The cursing of companions was instituted much later down the road—ironically it was the sunnah of Muawiyah.

do they not also accept the Caliphate Of Abu Bakr and Umar?

[Muslim2010]

30 minutes ago, power said:

do they not also accept the Caliphate Of Abu Bakr and Umar?

 Zaydi fiqh is similar to the Hanafi school of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence.[6] Abu Hanifa, a Sunni madhab shaykh, was favorable and even donated towards the Zaydi cause.[7] Zaidis dismiss religious dissimulation (taqiyya).[1]

Of the Shi'a, Zaydis are most similar to Sunnis[8] since Zaydism shares similar doctrines and jurisprudential opinions with Sunni scholars.[how?][9]

They therefore consider the Companions wrong in failing to recognise 'Ali as the legitimate Caliph and deny legitimacy to Abu Bakr, 'Umar and 'Usman; however, they avoid denouncing them. They further condemn two other companions of Muhammad, Talhah and Zubayr ibn al-Awam, for their initial uprising against Caliph Ali.[citation needed]

A group of their leaders assembled in his (Zayd's presence) and said: "May God have mercy on you! What do you have to say on the matter of Abu Bakr and Umar?" Zayd said, "I have not heard anyone in my family renouncing them both nor saying anything but good about them...when they were entrusted with government they behaved justly with the people and acted according to the Qur'an and the Sunnah"^[20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaidiyyah

Edited February 11, 2019 by skyweb1987

[786:)]

46 minutes ago, power said:

do they not also accept the Caliphate Of Abu Bakr and Umar?

I believe their opinion of the caliphate is in line with the opinion of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as he outlines in Nahjul Balagha.

 

16 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

A group of their leaders assembled in his (Zayd's presence) and said: "May God have mercy on you! What do you have to say on the matter of Abu Bakr and Umar?" Zayd said, "I have not heard anyone in my family renouncing them both nor saying anything but good about them...when they were entrusted with government they behaved justly with the people and acted according to the Qur'an and the Sunnah"^[20]

 I have always wondered about this. Was Imam Zaid (عليه السلام) a deviant grandson of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) for this idea?

Edited February 11, 2019 by 786:)

[Muslim2010]

Twelver Shia references to Zayd[edit]

While not one of the 12 Imams embraced by the Twelver denomination and current largest branch of Shi'ite Islam, Zayd ibn Ali features in historical accounts within Twelver literature in a positive light.

In Twelver Shia accounts, Imam Ali al-Ridha narrated how his grandfather Ja'far al-Sadiq also supported Zayd ibn Ali's struggle:

“he was one of the scholars from the Household of Muhammad and got angry for the sake of the Honorable the Exalted God. He fought with the enemies of God until he got killed in His path. My father Musa ibn Ja’far narrated that he had heard his father Ja’far ibn Muhammad say, "May God bless my uncle Zayd... He consulted with me about his uprising and I told him, "O my uncle! Do this if you are pleased with being killed and your corpse being hung up from the gallows in the al-Konasa neighborhood." After Zayd left, As-Sadiq said, "Woe be to those who hear his call but do not help him!".”

— Uyūn Akhbār al-Riḍā,[21] p. 466

Jafar al-Sadiq's love for Zayd ibn Ali was so immense, he broke down and cried upon reading the letter informing him of his death and proclaimed:

“From God we are and to Him is our return. I ask God for my reward in this calamity. He was a really good uncle. My uncle was a man for our world and for our Hereafter. I swear by God that my uncle is a martyr just like the martyrs who fought along with God’s Prophet or Ali or Al-Hassan or Al-Hussein”

— Uyūn akhbār al-Riḍā,[21] p. 472

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaidiyyah#cite_ref-Tabarī,_Carole_Hillenbrand_1989,_p37_20-0

[Akbar673]

Important fact to be noted is that Islam was spread initially in Yemen by Imam Ali (عليه السلام). The Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) had sent Imam Ali (عليه السلام) there on a Dawah mission. As such, the original Muslims of Yemen were followers of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Do we have any Zaidis on this forum that can enlighten us on their beliefs ?

[786:)]

3 minutes ago, Akbar673 said:

Important fact to be noted is that Islam was spread initially in Yemen by Imam Ali (عليه السلام). The Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) had sent Imam Ali (عليه السلام) there on a Dawah mission. As such, the original Muslims of Yemen were followers of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Do we have any Zaidis on this forum that can enlighten us on their beliefs ?

@Warilla

[Muslim2010]

Religion of Zayd

It is narrated from Zayd saying that,

"At any time, one of us, the Ahl al-Bayt (a), is the proof of God and in our time the proof is my nephew, Ja'far b. Muhammad (a). Whoever follows him, would not go stray and whoever opposes him will not be guided."[32]

Some sources refer to this narration to prove Zayd's belief in the imamate of Imam al-Sadiq (a).

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Zayd_b._al-Imam_al-Sajjad_(a)#cite_note-32

Thus  Zayd bin Ali was a follower of Imams of Ahl labayt like 12vers.

Edited February 11, 2019 by skyweb1987

[786:)]

Then why was his teachings or opinions not consistent with Imam al Sadiq (عليه السلام)?

[Muslim2010]

2 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Then why was his teachings or opinions not consistent with Imam al Sadiq (عليه السلام)?

Yes thanks to point it out, If some one does not follow divinely appointed Imam does it mean that the Imams were not truly appointed?

[786:)]

2 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

Yes thanks to point it out, If some one does not follow divinely appointed Imam does it mean that the Imams were not truly appointed?

Did I say that? I am asking based off the narrations you have posted in this thread. Members of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) held Zayd (عليه السلام) in high esteem--meaning they did not consider him to be a deviant. So why is there a contrast of supposed views between him and the later Imams (عليه السلام)?

Often times you will see that when an Imam has two conflicting narrations, it is reconciled with "taqiyya". How do we reconcile this contrast of opinions between brothers.

[786:)]

So for example:

Imam Zayd's (عليه السلام) opinion of Abu Bakr: he was a just caliph. Have not heard bad things about him from Ahlul-Bayt.

Imam Sadiq's (عليه السلام) first opinion of Abu Bakr: he was a just caliph. I have blood of Abu Bakr from my mother's side.

Imam Sadiq's (عليه السلام) second opinion of Abu Bakr: he was a tyrant and kafir. He will burn in hell.

Do you see how this can raise an eyebrow?

[Fink]

17 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Did I say that? I am asking based off the narrations you have posted in this thread. Members of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) held Zayd (عليه السلام) in high esteem--meaning they did not consider him to be a deviant. So why is there a contrast of supposed views between him and the later Imams (عليه السلام)?

Often times you will see that when an Imam has two conflicting narrations, it is reconciled with "taqiyya". How do we reconcile this contrast of opinions between brothers.

The likely answer is there was no such structure as 6 or 12 Imams the way Shias believe today.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Fink

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

https://www.al-Islam.org/misbah-uz-zulam-roots-Karbala-tragedy-Sayyid-imdad-Imam/zaid-ibn-Ali-ibn-husayn-or-zaid-martyr 

[Muslim2010]

39 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Did I say that? I am asking based off the narrations you have posted in this thread. Members of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) held Zayd (عليه السلام) in high esteem--meaning they did not consider him to be a deviant. So why is there a contrast of supposed views between him and the later Imams (عليه السلام)?

Often times you will see that when an Imam has two conflicting narrations, it is reconciled with "taqiyya". How do we reconcile this contrast of opinions between brothers.

1. The members of Ahl alabayt put him in high esteem but he is not considered in any case a divinely appointed Imam by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as quoted earlier.

2. You also agree that there is no verse in Qur'an mentioning that the people can choose a caliph /Imam for their guidance except it is chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Then all such claims thst  are not authenticated by hadith of 12 caliphs./ ameers/ Imams ( except those names mentioned in hadith of the Prophet saww both in Shia and Sunni sources) are rejected. 

3. Can you provide a hadith from primary Shia sources that Zayd bin Ali claims his  imamamt and he was accepted an Imam by Imam of the time ie Imam Muhamamd Al baqer or Imam Jaafr As Sadiq AS?

Edited February 11, 2019 by skyweb1987

[Muslim2010]

Moreover, the following is also added:

"Zaidiyyah say: If the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s.) has introduced the names of twelve Imams to his Ummah, why it has moved away from it and gone hither tither and become highly deviated?

We (12 vers) reply that: You say that the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s.) appointed Ali as his successor and Imam after himself. He issued Nass for him and indicated him clearly as there remains no doubt about it. Then what happened to this Ummah that it turned away from Ali and abandoned him completely, such that he went away from Medina to Yanba1 and whatever befell him is known to all. And if you say that the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s.) did not appoint Ali as his successor, we shall ask why have you mentioned it in your books, and why are you talking about it? People turn away from the truth if it might be absolutely clear and reject a matter even if it is explained in detail. Such as the people move from belief in monotheism to apostasy and inspite of Allah’s statement that: “There is nothing like Him”, they start believing in comparison".

(Kamaaluddin wa Tamaamun Ni’ma 75, First objection of Zaidiyyah sect, by Shaykh as-Sadooq)

Edited February 11, 2019 by skyweb1987

[Fink]

4 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

Moreover, the following is also added:

"Zaidiyyah say: If the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s.) has introduced the names of twelve Imams to his Ummah, why it has moved away from it and gone hither tither and become highly deviated?

We (12 vers) reply that: You say that the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s.) appointed Ali as his successor and Imam after himself. He issued Nass for him and indicated him clearly as there remains no doubt about it. Then what happened to this Ummah that it turned away from Ali and abandoned him completely, such that he went away from Medina to Yanba1 and whatever befell him is known to all. And if you say that the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s.) did not appoint Ali as his successor, we shall ask why have you mentioned it in your books, and why are you talking about it? People turn away from the truth if it might be absolutely clear and reject a matter even if it is explained in detail. Such as the people move from belief in monotheism to apostasy and inspite of Allah’s statement that: “There is nothing like Him”, they start believing in comparison".

(Kamaaluddin wa Tamaamun Ni’ma 75, First objection of Zaidiyyah sect, by Shaykh as-Sadooq)

Seems to be a weak argument as there is some evidence for the latter but not the former claim. Some contemporary Shia scholars rate as weak all hadiths of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) naming the 12 Imams by name. 

[Muslim2010]

5 minutes ago, Fink said:

Seems to be a weak argument as there is some evidence for the latter but not the former claim. Some contemporary Shia scholars rate as weak all hadiths of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) naming the 12 Imams by name. 

There is no verse in Qur'an mentioning that the people can choose a caliph /Imam for their guidance except it is chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Then all such claims that are not authenticated by hadith of 12 caliphs./ ameers/ Imams ( except those names mentioned in hadith of the Prophet saww both in Shia and Sunni sources) are rejected. 

The hadith provided both in Sunni and Shia sources mentions the numbers ie 12 caliphs / ameers / Imams and both sources as mentioned have the names of those caliphs / Imams first one is Imam  Ali and 12th is Al Mahdi as

The hadith is considered authentic as the names have been mentioned in both these sources. Thus any conjecture in this concern can be rejected.

Edited February 11, 2019 by skyweb1987

[Muslim2010]

6 minutes ago, Fink said:

Seems to be a weak argument as there is some evidence for the latter but not the former claim. Some contemporary Shia scholars rate as weak all hadiths of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) naming the 12 Imams by name. 

Would you like to explain which part of the argument do you deny?

The Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s.) appointed Ali as his successor and Imam after himself. He issued Nass for him and indicated him clearly as there remains no doubt about it. Then what happened to this Ummah that it turned away from Ali and abandoned him completely,

OR

 If you say that the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s.) did not appoint Ali as his successor, we shall ask why have you mentioned it in your books, and why are you talking about it?

[Fink]

2 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

There is no verse in Qur'an mentioning that the people can choose a caliph /Imam for their guidance except it is chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Then all such claims that are not authenticated by hadith of 12 caliphs./ ameers/ Imams ( except those names mentioned in hadith of the Prophet saww both in Shia and Sunni sources) are rejected. 

The hadith provided both in Sunni and Shia sources mentions the numbers ie 12 caliphs / ameers / Imams and both sources as mentioned in this thread  have the names of those caliphs / Imams first one is Imam  Ali and 12th is Al Mahdi as

The hadith is considered authentic as the names have been mentioned in both these sources. Thus any conjecture in this concern is rejected.

What hadith are you referring to that mentions the 12 Imams by NAME per the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ? 

[Muslim2010]

5 minutes ago, Fink said:

What hadith are you referring to that mentions the 12 Imams by NAME per the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ? 

 

13 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

There is no verse in Qur'an mentioning that the people can choose a caliph /Imam for their guidance except it is chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Then all such claims that are not authenticated by hadith of 12 caliphs./ ameers/ Imams ( except those names mentioned in hadith of the Prophet saww both in Shia and Sunni sources) are rejected. 

The hadith provided both in Sunni and Shia sources mentions the numbers ie 12 caliphs / ameers / Imams and both sources as mentioned have the names of those caliphs / Imams first one is Imam  Ali and 12th is Al Mahdi as

The hadith is considered authentic as the names have been mentioned in both these sources. Thus any conjecture in this concern can be rejected.

I await the answers of my questions posted in my earlier posts  before proceeding any further on discussion please.

Edited February 11, 2019 by skyweb1987

[Fink]

3 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

Would you like to explain which part of the argument do you deny?

The Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s.) appointed Ali as his successor and Imam after himself. He issued Nass for him and indicated him clearly as there remains no doubt about it. Then what happened to this Ummah that it turned away from Ali and abandoned him completely,

OR

 If you say that the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s.) did not appoint Ali as his successor, we shall ask why have you mentioned it in your books, and why are you talking about it?

Neither,  what im disagreeing with is shaykh sadooqs equivalence of

1. Imam Ali as appointment 

And 

2. Appointment of 12 Imams as believed by 12ers 

 

The first one may have evidence but that doesn't mean the second is true.

 

 

 

[Fink]

2 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

 

I await the answers of my questions posted in my earlier posts  before proceeding any further on discussion please.

What questions exactly ,

 

Thank you 

[Muslim2010]

12 minutes ago, Fink said:

Neither,  what im disagreeing with is shaykh sadooqs equivalence of

1. Imam Ali as appointment 

And 

2. Appointment of 12 Imams as believed by 12ers 

The first one may have evidence but that doesn't mean the second is true.

The fact you are accepting that Imam Ali was an appointed successor after the pophet saww and people left him after knowing he is true sucesor.

Similarly it is proof for us that the people left other out of 12 Imams ie  successors of the Imam Ali like they left Imam Ali after the Prophet saww. 

People turn away from the truth if it might be absolutely clear and reject a matter even if it is explained in detail. Such as the people move from belief in monotheism to apostasy and inspite of Allah’s statement that: “There is nothing like Him”, they start believing in comparison" 

Edited February 11, 2019 by skyweb1987

[786:)]

1 minute ago, skyweb1987 said:

The fact you are accepting that Imam Ali was an appointed successor after the pophet saww and people left him after knowing he is true sucesor.

Similarly it is proof for us that the people left other out of 12 Imams ie  successors of the Imam Ali like they left Imam Ali after the Prophet saw.

I think this is a reach. All Shia subsects can make this claim.

[Muslim2010]

1 hour ago, skyweb1987 said:

1. The members of Ahl alabayt put him in high esteem but he is not considered in any case a divinely appointed Imam by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as quoted earlier.

2. You also agree that there is no verse in Qur'an mentioning that the people can choose a caliph /Imam for their guidance except it is chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Then all such claims thst  are not authenticated by hadith of 12 caliphs./ ameers/ Imams ( except those names mentioned in hadith of the Prophet saww both in Shia and Sunni sources) are rejected. 

3. Can you provide a hadith from primary Shia sources that Zayd bin Ali claims his  imamamt and he was accepted an Imam by Imam of the time ie Imam Muhamamd Al baqer or Imam Jaafr As Sadiq AS?

I await the reply on the posted questions, please.

In the absence of verse of Qur'an that people can choose a caliph for their guidance except by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) how people can choose caliph  Imam/ successor of the Prophet saww that has no basis in the Qur'an?

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by skyweb1987

[Panzerwaffe]

3 hours ago, 786:) said:

I believe their opinion of the caliphate is in line with the opinion of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as he outlines in Nahjul Balagha.

 

 I have always wondered about this. Was Imam Zaid (عليه السلام) a deviant grandson of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) for this idea?

Salam brother

Why deviant ? Esp if his views were inline with earlier generation of Shias 

[786:)]

9 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

I await the reply on the posted questions, please.

In the absence of verse of Qur'an that people can choose a caliph for their guidance except by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) how people can choose caliph  Imam/ successor of the Prophet saww that has no basis in the Qur'an?

 

So you want to prove from 12er books about Zayd's imamate? I am not that well versed in hadith literature to be quite honest with you. However, I do not see the purpose of this request as its a lose-lose scenario for me:

1) No hadith exists to support that in 12er literature
2) Hadith exists-->you claim no 12er hadith book is 100% sahih therefore you dismiss the hadith

[786:)]

1 minute ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Salam brother

Why deviant ? Esp if his views were inline with earlier generation of Shias 

I do not consider him to be a deviant. I am asking on the basis of modern Shia views of how shaykhayn are kafirs etc.

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

2 hours ago, 786:) said:

Imam Zayd's (عليه السلام) opinion of Abu Bakr: he was a just caliph. Have not heard bad things about him from Ahlul-Bayt.

Perhaps you have taken this from "darbari mulla" & fitna like Abu Hanifa.

When did Zayd Shaheed claimed Imamate?

 

[Panzerwaffe]

Just now, 786:) said:

I do not consider him to be a deviant. I am asking on the basis of modern Shia views of how shaykhayn are kafirs etc.

Sorry I misunderstood 

I wonder when these views of shaykhayn were formulated as they were not really the dividing point between Shias of Ali and others in the first and second civil war. In those days it was only Alids unanimous condemnation of Uthman