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Why are homosexual acts sinful?

Reza

Personal attacks and topic derailment removed, as well as responses to said attacks and derailment. 

Please treat others the way you would like to be treated. 

Message added by Reza

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2 minutes ago, Carlzone said:

As long as God has not given us all of the exact reasons they could all be amongst those.

They are very meaningful as many people want to understand what could be the reason why homosexuality is such a grave sin that Allah SWT destroyed a whole nation of homosexuals. Anything that can add to that understanding is valuable and meaningful indeed.

But of course this is not fun for you as a homosexual to read. 

True, it is very tedious to read. People who want to understand why it is a sin have only one source of information - their religion. 

14 hours ago, Raheel Yunus said:

The only answer is because god said so.

 

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10 minutes ago, Klanky said:

True, it is very tedious to read. People who want to understand why it is a sin have only one source of information - their religion. 

 

No, any science that can help us understand this can also be used, as long as the science is consistent with the words of God. We must also know that only Allah SWT knows for sure the exact reasons. We are just trying to understand it from our extremely limited perspectives. 

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Well, it is illogical to suggest that sexually transmitted diseases are a reason for making something a sin as if a creator of the type in Islam was making it up as he went along. Why is traveling on airplanes not a sin when colds and flus can circulate and spread?  Can't it be made a sin retrospectively? Why aren't door handles banned? Schools and family homes and other such incubators of disease would be burned to the ground.

Reckless sexual behavior can be dangerous no matter what your sexual preference. Not all gays are reckless. You can't extrapolate things from reckless sexual behaviour without including reckless heterosexuals in the equation. You can't conclude things about responsible sexual behaviour without including responsible homosexuals. 

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3 minutes ago, Klanky said:

Well, it is illogical to suggest that sexually transmitted diseases are a reason for making something a sin as if a creator of the type in Islam was making it up as he went along.

the transmitting of disease is the minimum affection of it but the main affection of it on spirituality & may be many things that we don't know yet when our religion wants the best for us ,it will ban harmful actions for us too.

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3 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

the transmitting of disease is the minimum affection of it but the main affection of it on spirituality & may be many things that we don't know yet when our religion wants the best for us ,it will ban harmful actions for us too.

Ok, I don't dispute that your religion says it's a sin

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3 hours ago, Klanky said:

True, it is very tedious to read. People who want to understand why it is a sin have only one source of information - their religion. 

 

Technically, this could be enough for many gay muslims (because most religious principles and truths, if not all, are based merely in faith)

The problem I find has a social nature. Many muslims try to describe homosexuality as some sort of mental health problem. On top of that, it's public tolerance in unexistant, effeminacy in men is bashed (regardless it has nothing to do with homosexuality necessarily), and feelings are demonized as if these were some sort of vice. Moreover, the story of the people of Lot is barely understood as anything else as the punishment of God on homosexuals (when it's obvious it's not as simple as that if people bothered to think about the story). The real problem gay muslim face, from ny point of view, is not the prohibition of homosexuality, but muslim's homophobia, ignorance and complete lack of interest in understanding this topic beyond the mere fact they search for any cheap justification to throw stones at us.

@Carlzone Homosexual acts will be ok as long as the one performing them finds them ok. Morality is in the hands of people, in case you still haven't noticed. Islam is an ideology, and its existence as a system of beliefs also depends on having followers who believe in it and have passion for it. The existence of homophobia within our communities, as well as homophobic interpretations and conjetures, will lead to either highly repressed gay muslims or apostates. And not only that, this topic evidently doesn't affect only gay muslims, but people with a brain who question themselves why is homosexuality demonized in this way.

Btw, I also want to add Carlzone that this behaviour of yours saying things like "this is not fun for you as a homosexual to read" shows the homophobia I was referring to. I thank God for being a homosexual and not an homophobic.

Edited by Bakir

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3 minutes ago, Klanky said:

They're personal reactions to homosexuality , not answers

Almost everything in SC are personal reactions or interpretations who accept no more interpretations.

There is, however, other approaches and views on homosexuality in Islam. Some, such as the studies of Scott Kugle, accept sexual diversity. Others make a difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals when considering the gravity of homosexual acts. But close-minded homophobes dislike debate, so threads like this end up filled to the top of garbage and lastly closed fe Sabeel Allah.

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8 minutes ago, Carlzone said:

God destroyed a whole nation of homosexuals. What does that tell you? 

That he destroyed them because it's a sin. It doesn't tell me why it's a sin

 

What's his problem with it?

Edited by Klanky

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3 hours ago, Klanky said:

Ok, I don't dispute that your religion says it's a sin

People most of time don't have enough  knowledge or its a complicated matter like as cancer ,that it was rare between muslims because they were doing religious acts  because they knew it was good for them but didn't  know why it's good for them but after adopting western life style & abandoning Islamic recommendations cancer spreads between them this is same as  hemosexuality issue that is completely forbidden because it's so much harmful for humans but still needs very long research by scientific means so until it's danger clears by science we stick to safe procedure of religion.

Like as you when you doing any eork you stick to safety manual but whole people don't  know why they must concern safety manual.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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23 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

People most of time don't have enough  knowledge or its a complicated matter like as cancer ,that it was rare between muslims because they were doing religious acts  because they knew it was good for them but didn't  know why it's good for them but after adopting western life style & abandoning Islamic recommendations cancer spreads between them this is same as  hemosexuality issue that is completely forbidden because it's so much harmful for humans but still needs very long research by scientific means so until it's danger clears by science we stick to safe procedure of religion.

Like as you when you doing any eork you stick to safety manual but whole people don't  know why they must concern safety manual.

Are you really comparing cancer with homosexuality? Speechless...

Do you also realize homosexuality was rather common in the medieval Muslim world, significantly more than the West?

Did you know that male harems were present in most andalusi palaces, and it was within the muslim world where homoerotic poetry proliferated?

Did you know that the prophet never prosecuted Mukhanathun, even when they were present and open in the same city he lived?

Edited by Bakir

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6 minutes ago, Bakir said:

 

Did you know that male harems were present in most andalusi palaces, and it was within the muslim world where homoerotic poetry proliferated?

Did you know that the prophet never prosecuted Mukhanathun, even when they were present and open in the same city he lived?

Edited by Bakir

Andalusian places were OK because of sunni Islam school of taughts not shia Islam

Islam judges on social act & witness  not

Guessing & supposing & accusations

Prophet (pbu) & Ahlulbayt  (as)didn't excuse them but it stated by them that they are like [Edited Out]s are enemies of Imam Ali (as) & rest of Ahlul-Bayt  (as)

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8 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Andalusian places were OK because of sunni Islam school of taughts not shia Islam

Islam judges on social act & witness  not

Guessing & supposing & accusations

Prophet (pbu) & Ahlulbayt  (as)didn't excuse them but it stated by them that they are like [Edited Out]s are enemies of Imam Ali (as) & rest of Ahlul-Bayt  (as)

I can't understand what are you trying to say. As for tolerance towards homosexuality, the Prophet and his family showed much more understanding and leniency than the first Caliphs who decreed castration (of the worst type) for all the Mukhanathun. Curiously enough, some were thankful for being castrated (one of them is renowned for replying with "Now I am finally complete!". One should be aware that not all mukhanathun were homosexual, but also transexual).

This can be found in history books I wouldn't mind quoting in case you need the source of what I am talking about.

Edited by Bakir

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31 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

You are sharing a thread that end up like any other one here, where important questions are never answered with one grain of intelligence, if even answered.

@Carlzone do you really think I haven't read what you are sharing with me here?

You know what calls my attention most? The bizarre excitement people like you find in such behaviour. From a psychological perspective, you must enjoy bashing those who are seen as religiously lower just to feel proud of yourself as a muslim. God knows from where this unbearable guilt comes from...

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What's the point of this question?  Everyone will have their own opinion and we can't narrow down an answer and say "this is the reason why it's sinful".

Allah has created a very complicated system in this world, which our limited mind cannot comprehend. Why do we have this arrogance where we want to know everything at this very moment . It's like a child who wants to know everything, but their brain has not even developed.

Islam aims to give part of the knowledge that is with Allah, and it is clear that homosexuality is an evil act regardless of our ethnicity, religion, colour etc. 

 

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3 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Why do we have this arrogance where we want to know everything at this very moment . It's like a child who wants to know everything, but their brain has not even developed.

However, imagine if the child is slapped in the face and insulted everyday for a reason he doesn't know. Can you still blame the kid? Should we blame the lack of answers? Or shall we blame the ones who keep insulting and slapping the kid in the face day after day?

Sometimes, some answers are needed because our reasoning need them. Other times, they turn into a need because we need to give some meaning to the suffering.

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7 minutes ago, Bakir said:

However, imagine if the child is slapped in the face and insulted everyday for a reason he doesn't know. Can you still blame the kid? Should we blame the lack of answers? Or shall we blame the ones who keep insulting and slapping the kid in the face day after day?

Sometimes, some answers are needed because our reasoning need them. Other times, they turn into a need because we need to give some meaning to the suffering.

This example is not right in my opinion. You're automatically assuming that God speaking against the act of homosexuality is an insult without any knowledge.

If parents keep telling their children to refrain from a certain act, and the child doesn't even have the mental capacity to understand the reasoning behind it, then what would you expect the child to do?

Don't bring culture into this. I'm not talking about people who ridicule gay people.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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19 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Don't bring culture into this. I'm not talking about people who ridicule gay people.

I am. And I am lawfully doing so because this is so important to this conversation. Homophobia in muslim communities is being justified in the name of Islam, as Carlzone is doing right here in this thread.

If people sticked to Islam, who recognizes individual freedom and defends respect and tolerance towards each other, the problems faced by gay muslims would be nearly unexistant. The great problem is, as always, homophobia, and not the prohibition of homosexual acts.

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3 hours ago, Klanky said:

That he destroyed them because it's a sin. It doesn't tell me why it's a sin

 

What's his problem with it?

 I think we will never know why homosexuality is a sin
It’s not for us to understand
Just like a pigeon will never understand the concept of gravity
We don’t think that’s unfair.

But we think it’s unfair if we can’t understand.
Which is a weird logic.

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7 minutes ago, Raheel Yunus said:

 I think we will never know why homosexuality is a sin
It’s not for us to understand
Just like a pigeon will never understand the concept of gravity
We don’t think that’s unfair.

But we think it’s unfair if we can’t understand.
Which is a weird logic.

Do pigeons use logic?!

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44 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

 

Just trying to answer the OP's question. I don't know for sure if the reasons I listed are the reasons why it is a sin, that knowledge is with Allah, I am simply making suggestions based on what we do know, and there is nothing wrong with that as far as Islam goes.

Diseases do discriminate between sinful and virtuous people - yes, sometimes virtuous people do get disease, but disease occurs a billion times more often in people indulging in various sins. You're telling me an avid alcoholic is going to have the same conditions as somebody who abstains from alcohol? Or an IV drug abuser is going to contract the exact same illnesses as someone who doesn't engage in the same behaviour? Or will one who consumes faeces (yes there are people who do this and yes it is a sin) contract the same conditions as one who doesn't?

I don't care about what a wikipedia page says that's missing half its citations, fact is, the first case in humans was in a person practicing homosexual acts. And early in its spread among humans, HIV/AIDS was exclusive to individuals practicing homosexual acts for a good period of time - it spread to heterosexuals via bisexuality/IV drug abusers primarily. The movement has long been concealing this delicate piece of information, but with a little digging you'll find the facts cold as ice.

 

@Bakir reading through the thread, I get the sense that @Carlzone is "bashing" the acts, not the people who experience homosexual sentiments. I feel we keep conflating homosexuality and homosexual acts. I personally am against the act and I really don't care if a person experiences homosexual sentiments, nor do I have prejudice towards any such individual as a person whether you like to believe that or not, they are humans who make mistakes in life just like me. I merely detest the act the same way I would detest the act of killing an innocent human (perhaps you have something against this line of reasoning? if so, please do clarify why it's not justified to detest homosexual acts as a muslim).

 

Dragon, I could very well speak against the acts (as probably gay muslims have a more specific approach to it, at a spiritual and psychological level, I have personally benefitted a lot talking with other people in my situation and we all learnt from one another), if there was room for me to talk about homosexuality instead of having to defend myself or people like me constantly in the first place.

I have no reason to be acting like this towards @Carlzone if the user was merely bashing the acts. Sadly the way I see it, there is much more to it.

Edited by Bakir

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This is why I don't like the word homosexual. Being a homosexual is related to one's feelings which one can't choose. Actions are what are condemned. Homosexual attraction has been a problem for muslims for well over a thousand years. Ibn hazm for instance wrote he once avoided a party to avoid some handsome youth. Someone's sexual feelings or inclinations shouldn't be a part of their identity, one's actions define them not their base desires.

Edited by Shi3i_jadeed

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