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Ayuoobi

What are the causes of apostasy in our day and age?

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Ignorance goes both ways.  One can argue a lot of people stay muslim because of ignorance, if they actually were exposed to real islamic teachings they could be more reluctant to accept them.  Almost every muslim who has actually studied Islam in some depth agrees that the vast majority of muslims are presented a sugar coated version of the religion by their parents.

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:salam:
I think that because of the expansion of secularism and its strong propaganda that influences us even without knowing it, we have need always prayed, read the Quran, and a deep love for Ahlul Bayt.

Allahuma sali 3ala Muhammad wa alih attaybeen attahireen wa ajeel farajahum 

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3 hours ago, Qa'im said:

People react differently to social pressures brother. It can definitely cause rebellion, but it can also cause people to drop the burden (religious practice in this case). Egypt today is a prime example of this.

Yeah just not seeing it. Muslims survived Ataturk and Reza Shah and the hard pressures now are not even 10% of that. Its certainly not enough to lead to apostacy - maybe reduce practice at best but i think thats a multivariate complex phenomenon.

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On 9/2/2018 at 8:59 AM, Ayuoobi said:

What does this "weird understanding" entail?

I know ofsomeone who was having marital problems. So they went to a "peer", and purchased his best Islamic "marriage fixing" charm, and it strangely had no effect on their marriage. 

She now has concluded that Islam simply doesnt work, she has tested its best lucky charm, and it did not fix her marriage, therefore Islam is false.

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11 minutes ago, Ayuoobi said:

Yeah just not seeing it. Muslims survived Ataturk and Reza Shah and the hard pressures now are not even 10% of that. Its certainly not enough to lead to apostacy - maybe reduce practice at best but i think thats a multivariate complex phenomenon.

Ataturk and the Shah caused many people to apostate, not just because their ideology was “attractive”, but because they clamped down on Islamic institutions. Secular Arab dictators similarly made sure that the least educated students went to sharia school, which has a devastating affect on the quality of Sunni scholarship. Notice how most of the biggest Sunni scholars of the past few decades came from the periphery of the Sunni world - Yemen, Mauritania, sub-Saharan Africa, India - while most of the scholars of the Mideast are basically pundits, political hacks, state muftis. 

By the way, I’m not saying persecution is the only factor leading to apostasy, nor am I saying it is the main factor - but we can’t underestimate the role socio-political mobility plays in this. Islam spread most during centuries where it was economically, scientifically, and military superior to other systems - there was a promise of prosperity and safety (hence “dar al salaam”) which much of the Muslim world doesn’t have anymore.

In places like Egypt, the “islamophobia” is arguably worse than it is in the West. It takes on a different form of course, but thousands of mosques have been shut down, and without easy access to religion, the quality of faith of some people declines.

I agree that this sometimes creates the opposite intended effect, and the AKP and IRI are examples of that, but Turkey and Iran have not fully recovered from Ataturk and Shah, and it’s likely they never will in the foreseeable future.

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Don't we have a lot of hadiths which state that it will be extremely difficult to remain a Muslim in the Ends of Times? I also feel that Sufyani is coming because a lot of people are becoming religious. I was the most religious person in my family few years ago and now I am the least religious person. People are becoming religious but they are doing so much zulm in the name of religion. Most of them are hypocrites who impose rules on other people and punish people for their sins while they themselves don't follow rules. I have developed resentment for religion and I miss the days when my family did not consist of fanatics. I sometimes wish all of them become irreligious again. People are always demanding sacrifices in the name of religion. Also, I believe that magic is becoming more common, due to which many evil people have super powers. I see evil people with so much power and I think why doesn't God give me all these powers? 

On 9/2/2018 at 3:43 PM, iraqi_shia said:

I know ofsomeone who was having marital problems. So they went to a "peer", and purchased his best Islamic "marriage fixing" charm, and it strangely had no effect on their marriage. 

She now has concluded that Islam simply doesnt work, she has tested its best lucky charm, and it did not fix her marriage, therefore Islam is false.

I can totally understand her. I had to try so hard to get divorce, still that person is not out of my life and people still tell me that it's your fate and you have to accept it. That's why I became distant from religion. You will not understand her now, but I am sure at some point in your life, you will be tested also. Then you will understand her. 

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On 9/2/2018 at 3:43 PM, iraqi_shia said:

I know ofsomeone who was having marital problems. So they went to a "peer", and purchased his best Islamic "marriage fixing" charm, and it strangely had no effect on their marriage. 

She now has concluded that Islam simply doesnt work, she has tested its best lucky charm, and it did not fix her marriage, therefore Islam is false.

Yeah thats whack 

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4 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

Ataturk and the Shah caused many people to apostate, not just because their ideology was “attractive”, but because they clamped down on Islamic institutions. Secular Arab dictators similarly made sure that the least educated students went to sharia school, which has a devastating affect on the quality of Sunni scholarship. Notice how most of the biggest Sunni scholars of the past few decades came from the periphery of the Sunni world - Yemen, Mauritania, sub-Saharan Africa, India - while most of the scholars of the Mideast are basically pundits, political hacks, state muftis. 

By the way, I’m not saying persecution is the only factor leading to apostasy, nor am I saying it is the main factor - but we can’t underestimate the role socio-political mobility plays in this. Islam spread most during centuries where it was economically, scientifically, and military superior to other systems - there was a promise of prosperity and safety (hence “dar al salaam”) which much of the Muslim world doesn’t have anymore.

In places like Egypt, the “islamophobia” is arguably worse than it is in the West. It takes on a different form of course, but thousands of mosques have been shut down, and without easy access to religion, the quality of faith of some people declines.

I agree that this sometimes creates the opposite intended effect, and the AKP and IRI are examples of that, but Turkey and Iran have not fully recovered from Ataturk and Shah, and it’s likely they never will in the foreseeable future.

I agree with most of this. The part i disagreed with was that its harder to be a practicing Muslim in Muslim majority countries. Its simply not. In a Muslim majority country everything takes into account a sizeable religious population. There are mosques everywhere, you get fridays off, everything is halal, even in the most immodest areas modesty still prevails compared to the West, nothing interferes with prayer times, you dont lose ur job, etc etc. The overall situation for ppl in Muslim countries is harder because of the socio political climate but there are generally speaking few obstructions to practicing the faith and quite the opposite much to aid it.

Look theres a reason why the hukm al awali for hijrah to dar al kufr is that its haraam minus for purposes of business etc.

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On 9/2/2018 at 4:00 PM, rkazmi33 said:

I can totally understand her. I had to try so hard to get divorce, still that person is not out of my life and people still tell me that it's your fate and you have to accept it. That's why I became distant from religion. You will not understand her now, but I am sure at some point in your life, you will be tested also. Then you will understand her. 

I get it that when we are desperate and emotional we may not be thinking straight, however, this is a bit more than that.

If your religious beliefs are built on nonsense, at some point its all going to come crashing down. The question Im raising is this, is that because of the religion or the nonsense that had been constructed as a religion in their mind?

At a time where everything is rationalised and scrutinised to such a degree, our understanding of the religion has to be perfect, or it all just falls apart.

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Can I ask why apostasy is such a big deal?

People change their minds based on the information they discover. 

I'm technically an apostate from Christianity because I don't hold to the doctrinal points about the crucifixion, salvation, blood sacrifice, etc. There are wackadoos in my country who would love to slit my throat or hang me for that, but I'm fortunate that this is illegal even though the result of said illegality is causing my country to become a cultural cess pit.

Heck, that's one of the reasons why I stared posting here to begin with (along with some nudging from my favorite MCs): because I need something beyond the materialism and shallowness of 21st century American avarice culture.

But the whole death for apostasy thing is why I don't "come in"-- I don't trust myself enough to be able to keep faith in a future full of events that I do not yet know, human life and the experience thereof is an extremely difficult thing and for a person who is ill like I am, it's been harder particularly when your own mind conspires against you to try and get you to take your own life because it tells you that you are an idiot, there is no hope, God hates you, etc etc. Mental illness is a horrible private hell I wouldn't wish on even someone like Hillary Clinton or Josef Stalin.

At least I'm honest about this and this forum has allowed me to be honest without fear of being hated for it.

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1 hour ago, GD41586 said:

I'm technically an apostate from Christianity because I don't hold to the doctrinal points about the crucifixion, salvation, blood sacrifice, etc. There are wackadoos in my country who would love to slit my throat or hang me for that, but I'm fortunate that this is illegal even though the result of said illegality is causing my country to become a cultural cess pit.

We belive  that current christanity doesn't has any relation to original christanity all of them that you refered as basis of of current christianity from our view are distortion of original one by Zionists & Egyptian stories about their gods when you don't belive to them we see you as a person that returned to root of original christanity  that searchs for truth .

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On 12/12/2018 at 12:31 PM, GD41586 said:

Can I ask why apostasy is such a big deal?

People change their minds based on the information they discover. 

I'm technically an apostate from Christianity because I don't hold to the doctrinal points about the crucifixion, salvation, blood sacrifice, etc. There are wackadoos in my country who would love to slit my throat or hang me for that, but I'm fortunate that this is illegal even though the result of said illegality is causing my country to become a cultural cess pit.

Heck, that's one of the reasons why I stared posting here to begin with (along with some nudging from my favorite MCs): because I need something beyond the materialism and shallowness of 21st century American avarice culture.

But the whole death for apostasy thing is why I don't "come in"-- I don't trust myself enough to be able to keep faith in a future full of events that I do not yet know, human life and the experience thereof is an extremely difficult thing and for a person who is ill like I am, it's been harder particularly when your own mind conspires against you to try and get you to take your own life because it tells you that you are an idiot, there is no hope, God hates you, etc etc. Mental illness is a horrible private hell I wouldn't wish on even someone like Hillary Clinton or Josef Stalin.

At least I'm honest about this and this forum has allowed me to be honest without fear of being hated for it.

We are not talking about punishing people, we are trying to understand why someone would give up on God. 

Leaving the religion as we find it with most people today, is probably actually moving them closer to Islam, than they were before. 

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1 hour ago, GD41586 said:

But the whole death for apostasy thing

Many religious and knowledgeable muslims don't have orthodox views on the death penalty for apostasy. I remember speaking to a shia scholar who told me that he didn't believe in it because the evidence was against it, but he wouldn't mention it in public. He wasn't a liberal, he came from a very traditionalist position.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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On 12/12/2018 at 2:04 PM, iraqi_shia said:

We are not talking about punishing people, we are trying to understand why someone would give up on God. 

Leaving the religion as we find it with most people today, is probably actually moving them closer to Islam, than they were before. 

Oh that's a pretty easy answer from the perspective of an American:

1. No rules to tell you what to do. If it "feels good", then do it. I mean why care about the impact this has on the lives of other people or society as a whole? (/Sarcasm)

2. Because believing in God isn't hip and "trendy", especially because Hollywood celebrities don't and they get admiration from people and have lots of money and toys and stuff.

3. "Thinking for yourself" which doesn't mean critical thought, but rejecting religion and the supernatural because y'know Jesus didn't have a smart phone & they like, believed the Earth was flat and stuff (again, more sarcasm because this shallow mindset infuriates me)

What these people fail to realize is that they're just joining an even bigger religion that offers them no hope, no moral guidance, and no real community. It's called secular humanism and it's "sacraments" are pre-marital sex, drug use, and consumerism.

Its really inconceivably depressing that people are willing to call you and I stupid, backwards, incapable of thinking for ourselves and then they turn around and unquestioningly throw thousands of years of human experience out of their lives. It's like burning down your childhood home because you are mad that your parents put restrictions on you as a child, but the secular ideology claims to be all about "Liberation" yet makes people into brutish, nasty, reprobate slaves like no other system I've ever even read about.

Also: keep in mind that secularists have no problem with people who believe in mythological Norse and Greek gods, claiming themselves to be "neopagans" or whatever, but the very moment you say you are a Christian, Jew, or Muslim and that the teachings of those faiths are what dictate your actions and worldview, then you magically become a "backwards anti science moron who believes in a sky daddy and a flat Earth!"

(Not withstanding that their beloved "science" wouldn't exist if it weren't for Islam and the Westerners who rediscovered science during the European Renaissance)

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15 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Many religious and knowledgeable muslims don't have orthodox views on the death penalty for apostasy. I remember speaking to a shia scholar who told me that he didn't believe in it because the evidence was against it, but he wouldn't mention it in public. He wasn't a liberal, he came from a very traditionalist position.

I mean, I've given it more thought today and to really get down to the nitty gritty as to why I am not a Muslim:

I know myself and my history of how many times I've started going to church and then a few weeks later or when life got hard, walked away from it. Christianity has 30,000 different sects, I've tried on about fifteen of them and have found every last one of them lacking for what I need. I was even a "Buddhist" for a year or so, but of course that got hard and I walked away from that too.

I can say with sincerity that I respect the Islamic faith far too much to treat it like a toy or some fashion accessory that can be "returned to the store" when the going gets tough or I decide that it has become inconvenient for me, or asks me to put others before myself, etc.

This is probably my most glaring character flaw in matters of faith: acting like the Jews of the book of Judges (which is why it's my favorite book of the "Old" testament... I relate to the themes on a deeply painful and visceral level)

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I think it's because these 'Muslims' never understood Islam to start with  - their hearts never felt the beauty and sweetness of iman. There is no way a person would leave Islam after all this.

Islam has become a mockery in this day and age. People casually coming up and saying "oh wells I took my hijab off", "ahh I stopped praying", "anddd I left Islam". 

That's why we should be careful when randoms come on Youtube, 'act like they have faith',  use the Muslim community to gain popularity and then announce  publicly that they have nothing to do with religion.

These people make a mockery out of religion.  After all, they just announce that they wanna leave the faith they inherited from their parents. They don't understand faith. It's the truth.

 

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7 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I think it's because these 'Muslims' never understood Islam to start with  - their hearts never felt the beauty and sweetness of iman. There is no way a person would leave Islam after all this.

 

How does a person go about truly feeling this beauty and sweetness? Particularly when they won't inherit this from their families?

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7 minutes ago, GD41586 said:

How does a person go about truly feeling this beauty and sweetness? Particularly when they won't inherit this from their families?

In Islam faith can never be inherited from parents. Even if our parents happen to be Muslims, it might make things slightly easier for us (we might be familiar with some rituals etc. )  but ultimately it's our own journey. 

Allah is the only one who can make us experience this beauty,  but we have to be sincere. It's about striving to follow the path of Ahlulbayt (as).

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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29 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Allah is the only one who can make us experience this beauty,  but we have to be sincere. It's about striving to follow the path of Ahlulbayt (as).

I once read an anthology of stories and essays by a man named Tommy Tenney that was titled "the god chasers" (kind of a silly title, because you can't chase or catch God, but I think it's for the purposes of illustration).

What I'm getting at is basically to try and "pursue" after that experience for lack of a better term? Like, look at what Ahlulbayt(as) "did" and how they disciplined their minds and strive after that & then maybe if he wills, I'll have that experience and will have seen what I'm missing out on now?

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33 minutes ago, GD41586 said:

How does a person go about truly feeling this beauty and sweetness? Particularly when they won't inherit this from their families?

It is much sweeter to discover Islam versus inheriting it, the "inherited" Islam is poison, with beliefs and traditions that have nothing with do with the message sent to Muhammad (sawas).  I pity those were born Muslim in a way, they are sheltered and unknowingly blessed from what I noticed in my interactions. They don't understand our struggles and although they are blessed with a family for support, being born Muslim is not the same as striving and struggling; Takes some serious guts to change a lifestyle, they'll never understand this if they are type to be "Muslim"  because it pleases their parents. I know I will get "flack" for saying this but it is true. 

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8 hours ago, GD41586 said:

What I'm getting at is basically to try and "pursue" after that experience for lack of a better term? Like, look at what Ahlulbayt(as) "did" and how they disciplined their minds and strive after that & then maybe if he wills, I'll have that experience and will have seen what I'm missing out on now?

hi,definitely we can't reach to their level & understand them completely but chasing them causes in proces that we develop ourself to a better status than  our past & because we try to chase them everyday we promote ourselves everyday until time of death & after that they complete our action & clean our errors in this process in this world & hereafter 

Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) (peace be upon him) says elsewhere: The followers and supporters of Jesus were His Shiites, but the helpers of Jesus were not better than our Shiites; Because they offered a lot of promises, they did not fulfill their promise, and did not fight in the cause of Allah. However, our Shiites did not hesitate to help, when they died, and sacrificed for us, burned, tortured, retreated, but did not give up on our help and support. .

سفینة البحار، ج 1، ص 73

Safinat'Al Bahar  ( ship of seas) ,V1, P 73

https://hawzah.net/fa/Magazine/View/114/4439/31495/شیعه-کیست

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9 hours ago, GD41586 said:

What I'm getting at is basically to try and "pursue" after that experience for lack of a better term? Like, look at what Ahlulbayt(as) "did" and how they disciplined their minds and strive after that & then maybe if he wills, I'll have that experience and will have seen what I'm missing out on now?

hi,definitely we can't reach to their level & understand them completely but chasing them causes in proces that we develop ourself to a better status than  our past & because we try to chase them everyday we promote ourselves everyday until time of death & after that they complete our action & clean our errors in this process in this world & hereafter 

Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) (peace be upon him) says elsewhere: The followers and supporters of Jesus were His Shiites, but the helpers of Jesus were not better than our Shiites; Because they offered a lot of promises, they did not fulfill their promise, and did not fight in the cause of Allah. However, our Shiites did not hesitate to help, when they died, and sacrificed for us, burned, tortured, retreated, but did not give up on our help and support. .

سفینة البحار، ج 1، ص 73

Safinat'Al Bahar  ( ship of seas) ,V1, P 73

https://hawzah.net/fa/Magazine/View/114/4439/31495/شیعه-کیست

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I think this also because actually those who lead the world nowadays POLITICALLY and CULTURALLY are mostly western nations which in a neocolonial attitude try to convince the whole world that the values of their anti-religious elites must be followed by everyone and those who dont are nothing less than bad guys or stupid people.

From what i observed in west when someone leave religion (islam or any other religion) he will say this is because religion is "against modernity" while this argument is totally absurd. I even see people saying that this is because religion is against science while this is even more absurd.

No the sad reality is that western elites rule the world and try toimpose their values by ngo organisations and soft war cultural productions for banalize such things which are against religions. For exemple in west i saw how they do everything for banalyze such things like homosexuality or abortion. So now most people think that such things are totally normal and acceptable. And when they see that religions are against it they automatically think that religions are backward without thinking they had been actually brainwashed by vicious propaganda.

in social media i see litteraly every day propaganda in favor of homosexuality and abortion so this is not surprising that many young people finish to believe that such things are normals and acceptables. And after that some people complain "why youth is less religious". Answer is simple indeed. Western stupid propaganda against religious values is the answer actually.

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3 hours ago, alidu78 said:

I think this also because actually those who lead the world nowadays POLITICALLY and CULTURALLY are mostly western nations which in a neocolonial attitude try to convince the whole world that the values of their anti-religious elites must be followed by everyone and those who dont are nothing less than bad guys or stupid people.

From what i observed in west when someone leave religion (islam or any other religion) he will say this is because religion is "against modernity" while this argument is totally absurd. I even see people saying that this is because religion is against science while this is even more absurd.

No the sad reality is that western elites rule the world and try toimpose their values by ngo organisations and soft war cultural productions for banalize such things which are against religions. For exemple in west i saw how they do everything for banalyze such things like homosexuality or abortion. So now most people think that such things are totally normal and acceptable. And when they see that religions are against it they automatically think that religions are backward without thinking they had been actually brainwashed by vicious propaganda.

in social media i see litteraly every day propaganda in favor of homosexuality and abortion so this is not surprising that many young people finish to believe that such things are normals and acceptables. And after that some people complain "why youth is less religious". Answer is simple indeed. Western stupid propaganda against religious values is the answer actually.

I probably do a lot of things that you would disagree with, being a Westerner from birth and never having left the USA.

Having said that, your post reminds me of my exact resentments toward the culture of the very country I was born and raised in, because it didn't always used to be this way even as recently as the 2008. 

There has been a coordinated and concentrated effort for these things to happen and I would absolutely love to preach a sermon about exactly why and how cultural tolerance for the "LGBTQ Movement" has completely decimated my society from a moral and cultural perspective, but I'll probably do that as a post on my own page so as not to derail this thread.

 

The one thing I absolutely can promise you is that if *your* nations allow this moral black plague to gain a foothold in the society, the first thing it will do is come for your children and it's pretty much "over" about ten to twenty years after that. I am promising you this because I've watched it happen in America over the course of my lifetime.

I beg you to keep standing up for the natural order of how God made man + woman, because that battle is lost in my nation.

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