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In the Name of God بسم الله
Ayuoobi

What are the causes of apostasy in our day and age?

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Can I ask why apostasy is such a big deal?

People change their minds based on the information they discover. 

I'm technically an apostate from Christianity because I don't hold to the doctrinal points about the crucifixion, salvation, blood sacrifice, etc. There are wackadoos in my country who would love to slit my throat or hang me for that, but I'm fortunate that this is illegal even though the result of said illegality is causing my country to become a cultural cess pit.

Heck, that's one of the reasons why I stared posting here to begin with (along with some nudging from my favorite MCs): because I need something beyond the materialism and shallowness of 21st century American avarice culture.

But the whole death for apostasy thing is why I don't "come in"-- I don't trust myself enough to be able to keep faith in a future full of events that I do not yet know, human life and the experience thereof is an extremely difficult thing and for a person who is ill like I am, it's been harder particularly when your own mind conspires against you to try and get you to take your own life because it tells you that you are an idiot, there is no hope, God hates you, etc etc. Mental illness is a horrible private hell I wouldn't wish on even someone like Hillary Clinton or Josef Stalin.

At least I'm honest about this and this forum has allowed me to be honest without fear of being hated for it.

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1 hour ago, GD41586 said:

I'm technically an apostate from Christianity because I don't hold to the doctrinal points about the crucifixion, salvation, blood sacrifice, etc. There are wackadoos in my country who would love to slit my throat or hang me for that, but I'm fortunate that this is illegal even though the result of said illegality is causing my country to become a cultural cess pit.

We belive  that current christanity doesn't has any relation to original christanity all of them that you refered as basis of of current christianity from our view are distortion of original one by Zionists & Egyptian stories about their gods when you don't belive to them we see you as a person that returned to root of original christanity  that searchs for truth .

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On 12/12/2018 at 12:31 PM, GD41586 said:

Can I ask why apostasy is such a big deal?

People change their minds based on the information they discover. 

I'm technically an apostate from Christianity because I don't hold to the doctrinal points about the crucifixion, salvation, blood sacrifice, etc. There are wackadoos in my country who would love to slit my throat or hang me for that, but I'm fortunate that this is illegal even though the result of said illegality is causing my country to become a cultural cess pit.

Heck, that's one of the reasons why I stared posting here to begin with (along with some nudging from my favorite MCs): because I need something beyond the materialism and shallowness of 21st century American avarice culture.

But the whole death for apostasy thing is why I don't "come in"-- I don't trust myself enough to be able to keep faith in a future full of events that I do not yet know, human life and the experience thereof is an extremely difficult thing and for a person who is ill like I am, it's been harder particularly when your own mind conspires against you to try and get you to take your own life because it tells you that you are an idiot, there is no hope, God hates you, etc etc. Mental illness is a horrible private hell I wouldn't wish on even someone like Hillary Clinton or Josef Stalin.

At least I'm honest about this and this forum has allowed me to be honest without fear of being hated for it.

We are not talking about punishing people, we are trying to understand why someone would give up on God. 

Leaving the religion as we find it with most people today, is probably actually moving them closer to Islam, than they were before. 

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1 hour ago, GD41586 said:

But the whole death for apostasy thing

Many religious and knowledgeable muslims don't have orthodox views on the death penalty for apostasy. I remember speaking to a shia scholar who told me that he didn't believe in it because the evidence was against it, but he wouldn't mention it in public. He wasn't a liberal, he came from a very traditionalist position.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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On 12/12/2018 at 2:04 PM, iraqi_shia said:

We are not talking about punishing people, we are trying to understand why someone would give up on God. 

Leaving the religion as we find it with most people today, is probably actually moving them closer to Islam, than they were before. 

Oh that's a pretty easy answer from the perspective of an American:

1. No rules to tell you what to do. If it "feels good", then do it. I mean why care about the impact this has on the lives of other people or society as a whole? (/Sarcasm)

2. Because believing in God isn't hip and "trendy", especially because Hollywood celebrities don't and they get admiration from people and have lots of money and toys and stuff.

3. "Thinking for yourself" which doesn't mean critical thought, but rejecting religion and the supernatural because y'know Jesus didn't have a smart phone & they like, believed the Earth was flat and stuff (again, more sarcasm because this shallow mindset infuriates me)

What these people fail to realize is that they're just joining an even bigger religion that offers them no hope, no moral guidance, and no real community. It's called secular humanism and it's "sacraments" are pre-marital sex, drug use, and consumerism.

Its really inconceivably depressing that people are willing to call you and I stupid, backwards, incapable of thinking for ourselves and then they turn around and unquestioningly throw thousands of years of human experience out of their lives. It's like burning down your childhood home because you are mad that your parents put restrictions on you as a child, but the secular ideology claims to be all about "Liberation" yet makes people into brutish, nasty, reprobate slaves like no other system I've ever even read about.

Also: keep in mind that secularists have no problem with people who believe in mythological Norse and Greek gods, claiming themselves to be "neopagans" or whatever, but the very moment you say you are a Christian, Jew, or Muslim and that the teachings of those faiths are what dictate your actions and worldview, then you magically become a "backwards anti science moron who believes in a sky daddy and a flat Earth!"

(Not withstanding that their beloved "science" wouldn't exist if it weren't for Islam and the Westerners who rediscovered science during the European Renaissance)

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15 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Many religious and knowledgeable muslims don't have orthodox views on the death penalty for apostasy. I remember speaking to a shia scholar who told me that he didn't believe in it because the evidence was against it, but he wouldn't mention it in public. He wasn't a liberal, he came from a very traditionalist position.

I mean, I've given it more thought today and to really get down to the nitty gritty as to why I am not a Muslim:

I know myself and my history of how many times I've started going to church and then a few weeks later or when life got hard, walked away from it. Christianity has 30,000 different sects, I've tried on about fifteen of them and have found every last one of them lacking for what I need. I was even a "Buddhist" for a year or so, but of course that got hard and I walked away from that too.

I can say with sincerity that I respect the Islamic faith far too much to treat it like a toy or some fashion accessory that can be "returned to the store" when the going gets tough or I decide that it has become inconvenient for me, or asks me to put others before myself, etc.

This is probably my most glaring character flaw in matters of faith: acting like the Jews of the book of Judges (which is why it's my favorite book of the "Old" testament... I relate to the themes on a deeply painful and visceral level)

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I think it's because these 'Muslims' never understood Islam to start with  - their hearts never felt the beauty and sweetness of iman. There is no way a person would leave Islam after all this.

Islam has become a mockery in this day and age. People casually coming up and saying "oh wells I took my hijab off", "ahh I stopped praying", "anddd I left Islam". 

That's why we should be careful when randoms come on Youtube, 'act like they have faith',  use the Muslim community to gain popularity and then announce  publicly that they have nothing to do with religion.

These people make a mockery out of religion.  After all, they just announce that they wanna leave the faith they inherited from their parents. They don't understand faith. It's the truth.

 

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7 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I think it's because these 'Muslims' never understood Islam to start with  - their hearts never felt the beauty and sweetness of iman. There is no way a person would leave Islam after all this.

 

How does a person go about truly feeling this beauty and sweetness? Particularly when they won't inherit this from their families?

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7 minutes ago, GD41586 said:

How does a person go about truly feeling this beauty and sweetness? Particularly when they won't inherit this from their families?

In Islam faith can never be inherited from parents. Even if our parents happen to be Muslims, it might make things slightly easier for us (we might be familiar with some rituals etc. )  but ultimately it's our own journey. 

Allah is the only one who can make us experience this beauty,  but we have to be sincere. It's about striving to follow the path of Ahlulbayt (as).

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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29 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Allah is the only one who can make us experience this beauty,  but we have to be sincere. It's about striving to follow the path of Ahlulbayt (as).

I once read an anthology of stories and essays by a man named Tommy Tenney that was titled "the god chasers" (kind of a silly title, because you can't chase or catch God, but I think it's for the purposes of illustration).

What I'm getting at is basically to try and "pursue" after that experience for lack of a better term? Like, look at what Ahlulbayt(as) "did" and how they disciplined their minds and strive after that & then maybe if he wills, I'll have that experience and will have seen what I'm missing out on now?

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8 hours ago, GD41586 said:

What I'm getting at is basically to try and "pursue" after that experience for lack of a better term? Like, look at what Ahlulbayt(as) "did" and how they disciplined their minds and strive after that & then maybe if he wills, I'll have that experience and will have seen what I'm missing out on now?

hi,definitely we can't reach to their level & understand them completely but chasing them causes in proces that we develop ourself to a better status than  our past & because we try to chase them everyday we promote ourselves everyday until time of death & after that they complete our action & clean our errors in this process in this world & hereafter 

Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) (peace be upon him) says elsewhere: The followers and supporters of Jesus were His Shiites, but the helpers of Jesus were not better than our Shiites; Because they offered a lot of promises, they did not fulfill their promise, and did not fight in the cause of Allah. However, our Shiites did not hesitate to help, when they died, and sacrificed for us, burned, tortured, retreated, but did not give up on our help and support. .

سفینة البحار، ج 1، ص 73

Safinat'Al Bahar  ( ship of seas) ,V1, P 73

https://hawzah.net/fa/Magazine/View/114/4439/31495/شیعه-کیست

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9 hours ago, GD41586 said:

What I'm getting at is basically to try and "pursue" after that experience for lack of a better term? Like, look at what Ahlulbayt(as) "did" and how they disciplined their minds and strive after that & then maybe if he wills, I'll have that experience and will have seen what I'm missing out on now?

hi,definitely we can't reach to their level & understand them completely but chasing them causes in proces that we develop ourself to a better status than  our past & because we try to chase them everyday we promote ourselves everyday until time of death & after that they complete our action & clean our errors in this process in this world & hereafter 

Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) (peace be upon him) says elsewhere: The followers and supporters of Jesus were His Shiites, but the helpers of Jesus were not better than our Shiites; Because they offered a lot of promises, they did not fulfill their promise, and did not fight in the cause of Allah. However, our Shiites did not hesitate to help, when they died, and sacrificed for us, burned, tortured, retreated, but did not give up on our help and support. .

سفینة البحار، ج 1، ص 73

Safinat'Al Bahar  ( ship of seas) ,V1, P 73

https://hawzah.net/fa/Magazine/View/114/4439/31495/شیعه-کیست

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3 hours ago, alidu78 said:

I think this also because actually those who lead the world nowadays POLITICALLY and CULTURALLY are mostly western nations which in a neocolonial attitude try to convince the whole world that the values of their anti-religious elites must be followed by everyone and those who dont are nothing less than bad guys or stupid people.

From what i observed in west when someone leave religion (islam or any other religion) he will say this is because religion is "against modernity" while this argument is totally absurd. I even see people saying that this is because religion is against science while this is even more absurd.

No the sad reality is that western elites rule the world and try toimpose their values by ngo organisations and soft war cultural productions for banalize such things which are against religions. For exemple in west i saw how they do everything for banalyze such things like homosexuality or abortion. So now most people think that such things are totally normal and acceptable. And when they see that religions are against it they automatically think that religions are backward without thinking they had been actually brainwashed by vicious propaganda.

in social media i see litteraly every day propaganda in favor of homosexuality and abortion so this is not surprising that many young people finish to believe that such things are normals and acceptables. And after that some people complain "why youth is less religious". Answer is simple indeed. Western stupid propaganda against religious values is the answer actually.

I probably do a lot of things that you would disagree with, being a Westerner from birth and never having left the USA.

Having said that, your post reminds me of my exact resentments toward the culture of the very country I was born and raised in, because it didn't always used to be this way even as recently as the 2008. 

There has been a coordinated and concentrated effort for these things to happen and I would absolutely love to preach a sermon about exactly why and how cultural tolerance for the "LGBTQ Movement" has completely decimated my society from a moral and cultural perspective, but I'll probably do that as a post on my own page so as not to derail this thread.

 

The one thing I absolutely can promise you is that if *your* nations allow this moral black plague to gain a foothold in the society, the first thing it will do is come for your children and it's pretty much "over" about ten to twenty years after that. I am promising you this because I've watched it happen in America over the course of my lifetime.

I beg you to keep standing up for the natural order of how God made man + woman, because that battle is lost in my nation.

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have u ever heard of the term white mens burden?
it asserts that the other civilisations are less civilised and intellectually elevated as compared to white man so its white mans burden to civilise them i.e to rule over them
christianity being unreal to its core dissuaded white men from religion ..and the advent of industrialization vis a vis age of reasoning especially the discovery of evolution further disillusioned people from church and many thinkers were born who put forth many theories like aryan race theory ,communism, dadism and so on
in many of such theories God wasnt considered as something special because the evolutionary theory discredited church and god
 it also sort of took away legitimacy of the king because church used to give legitimacy to the kings rule ..at those days revolutions started in different part of europe feulled by the ideas of intellectuals and ideologies..since whites religion has so many fallacies,how come a religion from desert holds any value?
Colonialists of last two centuries invented the theory of separation of politics from religion and rivalry between the old and the new sciences in order to create a gulf between these two systems. They not only divided the language of religion from language of modern science, culture and philosophy, but also developed a big difference between the two with the result that conciliation between these two languages becomes difficult. That is why whenever an anyone of those religious minded people who had been to Europe and were conversant with modern civilization and culture, tried to defend and transmit whatever of religion was left to him, he in most cases presented religion in an ambiguous form which materialized to be incompatible with modern civilization and modern sciences. Realizing the situation, many of scholars, especially during the last 100 years have tried to bridge this gulf and to introduce modern science and civilization in a perspective compatible with the broad and progressive outlook of Islam and free from all misconception and misrepresentation. Mirza Naini is considered to be the most influential authority by introducing his revolutionary approaches to combat the gap between religion and modernity. The integrity of his students in the religious and modern world is the criteria for constructive critic and appreciation.
this loss of spirituality and less knowledge of deen is leading our youth astray
the second reason is that the west reached to a moral construct after debating and thinking replacing and refining  what moral lessons they were given in thier old books..they believe a thing is morally wrong because they think or feel its wrong more like qayas..thats why they think and believe homosexuality and feminism should be promoted

since the colonization has shifted the axis towards west ,parents tend to buy books of famous writers who are either liberals or cultural marxist ..when thier kids are raised reading those books,watching them and thier lessons being debated on tv or the same lesson given in the form of a film..they accept those moral values whose basis is in qayyas..so when they come across a quranic verse that talks about dealing with the fitnah..they become so shocked.
the difference between divine morality and morality propagated by west is so clear..the shaitan had made thier aimmal good for them but they know they are sliding towards degenracy..thats why we are seeing a wave of conservatism in europe..a wrongly guided wave of conservatism ..they even came up with a term white sharia lol
i couldve go on and on with this topic but right noe after typing all this my hand starts to ache plus i got exams...

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sunnis leaving for athiesm is understandable but since converting to shia ..i dont know if any usuli  shia has converted but i would be very amazed if someone does so..like shocked..its unbelievable to say atleast 
thanks Allah..my aqeeda toheed after conversion have become much stronger

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In general I think education (both in the general sense and with Islam itself, Sunni or Shia) has a lot to do with it, as well as those who grow up around Muslim types that go around damning others and not allowing a window for critical thought on the religion (as well as other religions), people forcing others to believe something etc.

In the West, it's more that in the 20th century things started pushing towards moral and collective decadence very early on, combined with the massive and lasting shock that both world wars have had on the collective consciousness of the world in general. But beyond that, the relativist ideology is more and more a default position in the Western world.....and of course, it has inevitable consequences when taken beyond subjective opinion.

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16 hours ago, GD41586 said:

I beg you to keep standing up for the natural order of how God made man + woman, because that battle is lost in my nation.

I respectfully disagree, culture and attitudes can and will eventually change, for worse or better. The battle is only lost if you give up.

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1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I respectfully disagree, culture and attitudes can and will eventually change, for worse or better. The battle is only lost if you give up.

I gave up on giving up on Friday morning after watching the story of Karbala, having been so deeply emotionally moved by what I saw and then realizing that it wasnt some grand old legend but a real, historical happening that took place closer to the present era than the stories of Paul that I grew up with.

I need to get my own house completely in order before I can criticize the rest of the world, according to a modern intellectual I follow online, but does that mean that this absolves me from calling out the problems I see in American society at large?

I'm honestly not even sure where I can begin nor where should I begin come tomorrow morning. I was going to go to the Methodist Church, but it's such a "rock concert" environment that it is beyond difficult for me to feel close to God there and the moral guidance is very vague; a lot of "You have to give all you've got for Jesus" type stuff... But with no real instructions or examples of exactly what that entails, so I sit for an hour, hear some emotionally charged alternative rock style Jesus songs and leave feeling like "Well that was cute but now it's time to go back out into the world & get ready to look for yet another job on Monday".

I've got a lot of "figuring things out" that I need to do, but I have no one in the community to really go to for guidance so I'm kind of just spinning my wheels and waiting for a breakthrough or stroke of inspiration that I fear isn't going to arrive, but I need to figure it out before the New Year.

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have u ever heard of the term white mens burden?
it asserts that the other civilisations are less civilised and intellectually elevated as compared to white man so its white mans burden to civilise them i.e to rule over them
christianity being unreal to its core dissuaded white men from religion ..and the advent of industrialization vis a vis age of reasoning especially the discovery of evolution further disillusioned people from church and many thinkers were born who put forth many theories like aryan race theory ,communism, dadism and so on
in many of such theories God wasnt considered as something special because the evolutionary theory discredited church and god
 it also sort of took away legitimacy of the king because church used to give legitimacy to the kings rule ..at those days revolutions started in different part of europe feulled by the ideas of intellectuals and ideologies..since whites religion has so many fallacies,how come a religion from desert holds any value?
Colonialists of last two centuries invented the theory of separation of politics from religion and rivalry between the old and the new sciences in order to create a gulf between these two systems. They not only divided the language of religion from language of modern science, culture and philosophy, but also developed a big difference between the two with the result that conciliation between these two languages becomes difficult. That is why whenever an anyone of those religious minded people who had been to Europe and were conversant with modern civilization and culture, tried to defend and transmit whatever of religion was left to him, he in most cases presented religion in an ambiguous form which materialized to be incompatible with modern civilization and modern sciences. Realizing the situation, many of scholars, especially during the last 100 years have tried to bridge this gulf and to introduce modern science and civilization in a perspective compatible with the broad and progressive outlook of Islam and free from all misconception and misrepresentation. Mirza Naini is considered to be the most influential authority by introducing his revolutionary approaches to combat the gap between religion and modernity. The integrity of his students in the religious and modern world is the criteria for constructive critic and appreciation.
this loss of spirituality and less knowledge of deen is leading our youth astray
the second reason is that the west reached to a moral construct after debating and thinking replacing and refining  what moral lessons they were given in thier old books..they believe a thing is morally wrong because they think or feel its wrong more like qayas..thats why they think and believe homosexuality and feminism should be promoted

since the colonization has shifted the axis towards west ,parents tend to buy books of famous writers who are either liberals or cultural marxist ..when thier kids are raised reading those books,watching them and thier lessons being debated on tv or the same lesson given in the form of a film..they accept those moral values whose basis is in qayyas..so when they come across a quranic verse that talks about dealing with the fitnah..they become so shocked.
the difference between divine morality and morality propagated by west is so clear..the shaitan had made thier aimmal good for them but they know they are sliding towards degenracy..thats why we are seeing a wave of conservatism in europe..a wrongly guided wave of conservatism ..they even came up with a term white sharia lol
i couldve go on and on with this topic but right noe after typing all this my hand starts to ache plus i got exams...
had to post this again..mods please delete the previous one

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On 12/16/2018 at 9:08 AM, GD41586 said:

I gave up on giving up on Friday morning after watching the story of Karbala, having been so deeply emotionally moved by what I saw and then realizing that it wasnt some grand old legend but a real, historical happening that took place closer to the present era than the stories of Paul that I grew up with.

I need to get my own house completely in order before I can criticize the rest of the world, according to a modern intellectual I follow online, but does that mean that this absolves me from calling out the problems I see in American society at large?

I'm honestly not even sure where I can begin nor where should I begin come tomorrow morning. I was going to go to the Methodist Church, but it's such a "rock concert" environment that it is beyond difficult for me to feel close to God there and the moral guidance is very vague; a lot of "You have to give all you've got for Jesus" type stuff... But with no real instructions or examples of exactly what that entails, so I sit for an hour, hear some emotionally charged alternative rock style Jesus songs and leave feeling like "Well that was cute but now it's time to go back out into the world & get ready to look for yet another job on Monday".

I've got a lot of "figuring things out" that I need to do, but I have no one in the community to really go to for guidance so I'm kind of just spinning my wheels and waiting for a breakthrough or stroke of inspiration that I fear isn't going to arrive, but I need to figure it out before the New Year.

Bismehe Ta3ala 

How are you holding up?

We haven't heard from you.

I hope all is well and I know you are honorable and taking care of your mother and working hard.  You have great qualities and I hope you are back on your feet.

Please drop by and send us a message.  Have you found a job yet?

M3 Salamah, Fe Amin Allah 

 

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I find it very interesting that so many people who answer this question have most likely not gotten the answer they are offering from an actual apostate. 

I am one (ex-Shia) and for me the reason for leaving was simple: no good reason to believe and no good evidence for belief. 

Quite simple.  In my experience with other nonbelievers of different ex-faiths, the above is the most common answer.

I try to live my life with the thought that if I believe something to be true, then I should have good reason to do so. 

BTW - this is my first day of posting here (just registered). 

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 I am a Christian, I love Jesus.

At the same time though, I don't think it's necessarily irrational to not believe in God. 

The cause for apostasy? Well, I imagine that not everyone is comfortable believing in the unseen.

Not everyone has had the same experiences in religion either. We all know that there are people who have had poor experiences in the local church or mosque and not everyone explores other churches or mosques. Some people just walk away and that decision molds their future.

Meanwhile, of course some non-believers have great experiences with the church or mosque and they become believers as they see value and appreciate the teachings of faith, or the practices of the adherents. And that's fine too.

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