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Sumerian

Bake the cake or get fined/sued?

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So as you people know in some countries you can get fined for not baking a cake for homos who wish to get "married" due to discrimination laws and what not. If you were a cake shop owner, would you take the fine, apparently it's in the thousands of dollars, or bake the cake for the homos?

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4 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

So as you people know in some countries you can get fined for not baking a cake for homos who wish to get "married" due to discrimination laws and what not. If you were a cake shop owner, would you take the fine, apparently it's in the thousands of dollars, or bake the cake for the homos?

I dont know. Is it haram to bake cakes for homosexuals? 

If not, I guess I would treat them just like everyone else. 

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Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum Brother.

I would burn the cake.  They can get services elsewhere.

I love people who stick with their principles and not put their religion on the back burner and do it for the money.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

AM

Edited by Laayla

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I need more information.  What differentiates a "gay cake" from a "straight cake"?  How would the baker know?

Is it just the plastic ornaments the people wish to place on top?  The solution would be to sell the cake without them, and sell the figurines separately. Then the baker is innocent of accepting wrongdoing, and there are no fines.  As a bonus, maybe the baker would get a little extra money from the extra sale.    

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It's interesting really how quickly laws are formed to protect the interests of certain communities when often those same laws prejudice other communities by merely existing. Naturally, with laws like these being passed there will always be people who fight to get them struck down. There was a case going on that made it all the way to the Supreme Court protecting individuals under the first amendment from being forced to provide services when they desire not to, you can look up Obergefell v. Hodges for extra reading if you're interested.

More to the point the fine currently is $135,000, which would be outrageous to pay even if you could.

The law specifically is no “business engaged in any sales to the public” may “refuse...to an individual or a group, because of..sexual orientation” the “full and equal enjoyment” of their goods and service. Within your rights you are however allowed to refuse services for any other reason without necessity of specification. So you could avoid the fine and still not bake the cake.

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@Sumerian 

The podcast below goes into the details of one such case in USA. The case is regarding two homosexual men who had filed a complaint to Colorado civil rights commission against a Christian baker. The civil rights commission & the state court had given a judgement against the Christian baker but the Supreme Court reversed the decision in favour of the baker.

 

 

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No, really, I am serious. What is the difference? 

Is this cake gay or straight?

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTylGUvtAxeXMzCKkvvROZ

Would restaurant owners also not serve gay sandwiches or gay soda? Can electric utilities deny gay electricity? Can a doctor deny a gay bandage? 

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@Ali Al KashmiriThe only reason the Colorado baker had his decision reversed was because the Supremes felt he might not have had a fair hearing by the Colorado commission. Might not have. It was a one-off decision applying only to this particular case. All of Colorado's anti-discrimination laws are still firmly in place and in fact, if you bother to go through the 60 pages of the decision, you'll see the Court affirms them. So if anyone tries it again....more trouble for them.

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/controversial-school-assignment-asks-students-deserving-life-homosexual-pro-athlete-black-medical-student-205555421.html

what a ridiculous moral dilemma. You want a real moral dilemma? Think about the one given in the above article. You might think that this will never happen to me, but at some point in life, you will have to make a decision about which life to spare, even worse, other people will make this decision about you. 

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sorry...meant to post this earlier and went out of range.
1964 law ( others followed in 1965). My post should have said 1964 when related to businesses.
 
The folks who want to push cases that weaken these laws ( which hopefully will get no where) remind me of the spoiled brats who will kick an entire sandcastle , built by many children, down because they don't like the placement of one pebble on top. They don't understand or care that  it will ruin it for a lot of other people.
 
I and many others in this community have already fought too long and hard for our rights around here to have much patience with anyone who is okay with my kids and grandkids getting hurt in the future as a consequence of their not being able to control their homophobia. I don't want to fight battles all over again for the same pieces of political and legal real estate. I'll fight anyone and everyone who wants to shove  us back under the boot that we're still struggling to deal with. If they're Catholic or any other kind of Christian, I'll tell them I think they've got the wrong religion. 
 
Fortunately, I can say that this is not an issue I've ever had to deal with with my Shia relatives. They absolutely understand why these laws are necessary in this country. 

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1 hour ago, shiasoldier786 said:

Imagine the outrage among muslims if a cake shop refused to bake for a muslim couples wedding. Its none of your concern who the cake is for. If you own a cake shop, you bake for whoever pays. 

I remember this being the reaction of some Muslim bakers who were asked. If I can find it, I'll post it. But I have Grandma duty soon. Lol.

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5 hours ago, notme said:

I need more information.  What differentiates a "gay cake" from a "straight cake"?  How would the baker know?

Is it just the plastic ornaments the people wish to place on top?  The solution would be to sell the cake without them, and sell the figurines separately. Then the baker is innocent of accepting wrongdoing, and there are no fines.  As a bonus, maybe the baker would get a little extra money from the extra sale.    

Or you can require all  couples , whoever they are, to provide their own topper. Most do around here anyway. Some folks have made up some fantastic myths about the Colorado baker, including that he wouldn't put certain words on the cake, etc. ( how many wedding cakes have words on them anyway?) But...None of that is true because he turned that couple down as soon as he found out they were gay and it never got to discussion of ornamentation, according to the court documents and his own testimony. Turns out he had turned down other gay couples before and finally, one couple busted him. 

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

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According to what most have said, this means bakers should also refuse non-hijabis etc and just basically non-muslims in general because they're kuffar and are probably celebrating a relationship that has most likely been haram for quite a long time. This extends to working with/ for kuffar and so forth. No? 

Edited by 2Timeless

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Lol, it's not the same as baking any other cake as some have suggested. Baking a cake for the homos if they have specifically told you that this cake is for their wedding means in effect you are legitimising and rewarding their behaviour. Would you bake a cake for someone who wants to celebrate successfully robbing a bank? Or someone who wants to celebrate any other haram deed?

@notme the baker could be told.

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3 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/controversial-school-assignment-asks-students-deserving-life-homosexual-pro-athlete-black-medical-student-205555421.html

what a ridiculous moral dilemma. You want a real moral dilemma? Think about the one given in the above article. You might think that this will never happen to me, but at some point in life, you will have to make a decision about which life to spare, even worse, other people will make this decision about you. 

The black guy of course. This isn't hard.

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56 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

The black guy of course. This isn't hard.

If this is a joke, not funny. Why is it so easy to decide? Do you have white skin and blue eyes? There may be someone who would say that the black guy is medical student, he can save lives, I want to kill the hijabi student, do you think that's funny? 

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34 minutes ago, rkazmi33 said:

If this is a joke, not funny. Why is it so easy to decide? Do you have white skin and blue eyes? There may be someone who would say that the black guy is medical student, he can save lives, I want to kill the hijabi student, do you think that's funny? 

Cause the other guy is homo. That's why it's easy. Maybe you don't know, in Islam, sodomy is up there with rape and murder.

Edited by Sumerian

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7 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Cause the other guy is homo. That's why it's easy. Maybe you don't know, in Islam, sodomy is up there with rape and murder.

The assignment actually asks to cut 4 people from a list of 12 people. From your answer, I concluded that you wanted to kill the black guy, because you don't like black people. I now realize you were answering the question who is more life deserving. 

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3 minutes ago, rkazmi33 said:

The assignment actually asks to cut 4 people from a list of 12 people. From your answer, I concluded that you wanted to kill the black guy, because you don't like black people. I now realize you were answering the question who is more life deserving. 

Oh okay

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54 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

When this whole cake stuff started happening a few years ago, gay couples started coming to Muslim areas, like where I live in Dearborn to get their cakes done, because muslims have a different attitude toward this than Christian's, in general.

Except for internet warriors, apparently. 

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11 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

It is a mistake to conflagrate civil rights issues with gay rights. Being black, white, latino, or native American is not a behaviour, you are born into it. No one asked to be born a particular race or color or to a particular family. So it makes sense to everyone( except maybe a few racist cavemen) that noone should be punished for something which they had no control over, or rewarded for it either. 

A man having a sexual relationship with another man or a woman with another woman is a behaviour and it is a chosen behaviour. So like any other chosen behaviour, we have the right to discuss whether this behaviour is productive or destructive to society. All religions, with the exception of some denominations of Christianity and Judaism in the last 40 years or so, taught that this behaviour was destructive to the fabric of society.

As muslims living in a society, like the US, where this behavior is allowed and encouraged by the society in general doesn't mean we don't have the right to Express out opinion regarding this chosen behavior. At the same time, at least in Islam, within the context of this society, we are not allowed harm people who choose to do this behavior nor are we allowed to discriminate against them. 

When this whole cake stuff started happening a few years ago, gay couples started coming to Muslim areas, like where I live in Dearborn to get their cakes done, because muslims have a different attitude toward this than Christian's, in general. In Islam, baking a cake and selling it is a business transactions, and we are allowed to do business transactions with anyone, so long as the goods sold are halal, and a few other rules which don't apply to this situation. We are not allowed to promote homosexuality, but in my opinion, baking a cake is not promoting homosexuality. 

And yes, we are obligated by our religion to follow the laws of the country where we live, so long as those laws do not directly contradict a clear law in our religion. And baking a cake for a gay wedding does not directly contradict any Islamic law I am aware of. 

 

It is unknown whether or not homosexuals are born into it or not. Sure, they can chose not to do any gay stuff but the answer the the question  whether they should or shouldn't is not written out in the sky for everyone to read and not everyone has faith in these old books. Otherwise, I agree. If there is to be a law about these things then it needs to be applied across the board. If one person can deny service to a homosexual the next person can deny it to a Muslim or a ginger and we will quickly end up in a spiral of bitterness and pathetic pettiness. Better to put these personal prejudices aside.

 

 

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Using the same line of thought, a practising Christian could refuse service to a Muslim due to the possibility of polygamy as they would think of more than one wife as adultery, a major sin.  Covering your face can be seen as having something to hide and are thereby the person seen as potentially unlawful,  or perhaps serving a covered woman is viewed as supporting the oppression of women. It is a slippery slope.  

The behaviour of judgement and legal exclusion will be repeated, merely the specifics  of the circumstances will change.

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2 hours ago, Klanky said:

It is unknown whether or not homosexuals are born into it or not. Sure, they can chose not to do any gay stuff but the answer the the question  whether they should or shouldn't is not written out in the sky for everyone to read and not everyone has faith in these old books. Otherwise, I agree. If there is to be a law about these things then it needs to be applied across the board. If one person can deny service to a homosexual the next person can deny it to a Muslim or a ginger and we will quickly end up in a spiral of bitterness and pathetic pettiness. Better to put these personal prejudices aside.

 

 

Identical twins are more often simultaneously homosexuals than regular siblings - which suggest a genetic predisposition to becoming a homosexual. However not all identical twins are simultaneously homosexuals which suggests that genes don't force anyone to become a homosexual. If this was the case then all identical twins would be simultaneously homosexuals. 

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45 minutes ago, Carlzone said:

Identical twins are more often simultaneously homosexuals than regular siblings - which suggest a genetic predisposition to becoming a homosexual. However not all identical twins are simultaneously homosexuals which suggests that genes don't force anyone to become a homosexual. If this was the case then all identical twins would be simultaneously homosexuals. 

Identical twins start out the same but there are genetic changes as they go through life and they do not end up identical (not usually a huge difference but can be up to 20%).  Their genomes are only identical at birth.

 

Edited by forte
added info

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