Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sumerian

Bake the cake or get fined/sued?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Whether homosexual tendency is innate or not is not the issue. Should we also refuse to sell cakes to anyone who has a boyfriend or girlfriend? What about people who drink alcohol? Shall we refuse to serve cake to anyone who eats pork too? Should clothing stores refuse to allow women to shop for their sons or husbands for fear they might be transvestite and shopping for themselves? Should apartment landlords refuse to rent to single adults because they might engage in fornication?

A cake is just a cake. What the buyer does with it is up to them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

It is a mistake to conflagrate civil rights issues with gay rights. Being black, white, latino, or native American is not a behaviour, you are born into it. No one asked to be born a particular race or color or to a particular family. So it makes sense to everyone( except maybe a few racist cavemen) that noone should be punished for something which they had no control over, or rewarded for it either. 

 

 

Thank you for the explanation of Islamic responses to this.

Leaving aside the fact that a good deal of the science does not lean towards homosexuality being a " choice" ( i.e. You indeed are born that way), last time I checked being a Muslim ( or any other religion) is definitely a choice. Should we leave religion out of the Civil Rights list?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, realizm said:

:salam:

I would not bake it. Saying this is against my religion, and then sue anyone who would try to sue me for trying to go against my personal rights and religious freedom.

Your religious freedom protection, in the US, would include anything that prevented you from practicing your religion. Like preventing you from going to prayer or to the mosque. It does not include your forcing your religious beliefs on others. Islam ,according to other Muslims here, does not require you to open a bakery, make wedding cakes, and then defy the laws regarding selling  your goods in the land. So you'd have a hard time proving any religious issues and you'd likely have your case bounced out.

Edited by LeftCoastMom
Typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, forte said:

Identical twins start out the same but there are genetic changes as they go through life and they do not end up identical (not usually a huge difference but can be up to 20%).  Their genomes are only identical at birth.

 

20% is not much. On average it's most likely much less than 20%. And even if it was 20% it would still not explain all the difference. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Carlzone said:

20% is not much. On average it's most likely much less than 20%. And even if it was 20% it would still not explain all the difference. 

2% - 5% is considered statistically significant in most case studies.  20% is huge.

Also epigenetics comes into play.  The expression (phenotype) of genes can vary between twins. That is, a gene can have multiple phenotypes.

Any difference, can be explained with very little genetic difference (and in this case, as I said, it is significant); but ultimately it is the phenotypic expression that clearly shows the differences.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, forte said:

2% - 5% is considered statistically significant in most case studies.  20% is huge.

Also epigenetics comes into play.  The expression (phenotype) of genes can vary between twins. That is, a gene can have multiple phenotypes.

Any difference, can be explained with very little genetic difference (and in this case, as I said, it is significant); but ultimately it is the phenotypic expression that clearly shows the differences.

 

 

 

That has no value islamically. 

Homosexuals have a choice to do homosexual acts or not. Allah SWT would never punish them for something that was not in their hands. Allah SWT destroyed a whole nation of homosexuals. I don't believe he made a mistake or was unfair towards them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And by the way. Statistically significant only says there's a difference between two compared groups. It doesn't mean that it explains why one group is homosexual while the other isn't.

And statistics is something scientists can play with to benefit what they support. They can choose how to put together different hypothesis in order to more easily get a significant result.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, notme said:

Whether homosexual tendency is innate or not is not the issue. Should we also refuse to sell cakes to anyone who has a boyfriend or girlfriend? What about people who drink alcohol? Shall we refuse to serve cake to anyone who eats pork too? Should clothing stores refuse to allow women to shop for their sons or husbands for fear they might be transvestite and shopping for themselves? Should apartment landlords refuse to rent to single adults because they might engage in fornication?

A cake is just a cake. What the buyer does with it is up to them. 

Taking a page from that book and going forward...I'm going to leave Muslims out of this post and concentrate on my fellow Christians. In the Colorado case, the baker was challenged by other members of his own faith for being rather " selectively Christian". Although he said he didn't make Halloween cakes and a few other things, other Christians wondered if he refused cakes for divorced folks who want to remarry ( a big no-no in many Christian sects, especially fundamentalist evangelicals who have the most issues with same- sex marriage)? did he make sure that first time brides and grooms were virgins or at least currently celibate? Did he ask people claiming to be widows and widowers who wanted to marry again for the death certificate of the spouse? Most of all ( the hilarious kicker for me) ...why did he give an interview and say he offered to make other desserts for the wedding...just not the cake? Lol! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Carlzone said:

That has no value islamically. 

Homosexuals have a choice to do homosexual acts or not. Allah SWT would never punish them for something that was not in their hands. Allah SWT destroyed a whole nation of homosexuals. I don't believe he made a mistake or was unfair towards them. 

Then don't introduce pseudo genetic justifications.

Edited by forte

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/29/2018 at 1:07 PM, Sumerian said:

So as you people know in some countries you can get fined for not baking a cake for homos who wish to get "married" due to discrimination laws and what not. If you were a cake shop owner, would you take the fine, apparently it's in the thousands of dollars, or bake the cake for the homos?

Cook food or bake cake with seriously good anti constipation ingredients.  Donot worry for the rest.

:yahoo:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Carlzone said:

And by the way. Statistically significant only says there's a difference between two compared groups. It doesn't mean that it explains why one group is homosexual while the other isn't.

And statistics is something scientists can play with to benefit what they support. They can choose how to put together different hypothesis in order to more easily get a significant result.

Well true and this condition is not genetical at all as of we look at an8mals they are not g**.There are hardly any pics of such coincidence.

They donot go to schools or colleges but the western system by all means wants to break family values all because family break up help there all industries to provide them man power.

There is no legal position for polygamist. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Carlzone said:

Stop trying to justify homosexuality. Trust God.

This is a cop-out, you cannot have it both ways.  If you want to have a reasonable scientific discussion about something then stick to it, don't simply invoke God every time you are having difficulty responding to facts .  It is totally fine to say you believe something to be true because Islam says so, but then don't go on to scientifically reason about these things and then follow up with unscientific responses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is topic is not about "born this way".

This is more about exclusion of people based on a certain criteria.

Based on some people's view that we should not serve homosexuals because they are blatantly sinning, shouldn't we also reject baking cakes for pagans aka kaffirs? After all, kufr is the greatest of all sins.

Slippery slope

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, forte said:

Using the same line of thought, a practising Christian could refuse service to a Muslim due to the possibility of polygamy as they would think of more than one wife as adultery, a major sin.  Covering your face can be seen as having something to hide and are thereby the person seen as potentially unlawful,  or perhaps serving a covered woman is viewed as supporting the oppression of women. It is a slippery slope.  

The behaviour of judgement and legal exclusion will be repeated, merely the specifics  of the circumstances will change.

I don't really care. Just go to another cake shop. It isn't that serious. Wow they don't serve Muslims, big deal.

1 hour ago, notme said:

Whether homosexual tendency is innate or not is not the issue. Should we also refuse to sell cakes to anyone who has a boyfriend or girlfriend? What about people who drink alcohol? Shall we refuse to serve cake to anyone who eats pork too? Should clothing stores refuse to allow women to shop for their sons or husbands for fear they might be transvestite and shopping for themselves? Should apartment landlords refuse to rent to single adults because they might engage in fornication?

A cake is just a cake. What the buyer does with it is up to them. 

This is a weak argument. These people are buying a cake to celebrate their haram - it's a "marriage" for them. If someone said I want a cake because I want to celebrate drinking alcohol then yes, they warrant the same response.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

This is topic is not about "born this way".

This is more about exclusion of people based on a certain criteria.

Based on some people's view that we should not serve homosexuals because they are blatantly sinning, shouldn't we also reject baking cakes for pagans aka kaffirs? After all, kufr is the greatest of all sins.

Slippery slope

If they want to celebrate their kufr, say for a religious event which promotes their false religion, same thing. Wouldn't bake a cake for them.

Edited by Sumerian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Thank you for the explanation of Islamic responses to this.

Leaving aside the fact that a good deal of the science does not lean towards homosexuality being a " choice" ( i.e. You indeed are born that way), last time I checked being a Muslim ( or any other religion) is definitely a choice. Should we leave religion out of the Civil Rights list?

We are guaranteed freedom of religion under the First Amendment. That is something I think we should keep. As far as someone being 'born that way', although there might be factors in their genes or environment that push them in that direction, it is not determined at birth. Otherwise, as was said above by Carlzone, all identical twins where one sibling is homosexual, the other one would also be homosexual. That is not the case, there have been studies done about this subject. some have been cited on other threads as well as elsewhere. 

If you are Native American, and you have a twin, that twin will also be Native American, 100% of the time, no exceptions. So that is what I mean by 'born into it'. That definition can get 'mucked up' sometimes, but that is how I define it. 

There are factors in the environment, genetics, overall conditions in society, tolerance for this behavior, etc, that will push some people in that direction. But this is the same for any behavior that we can probably agree are negative and destructive to the fabric of society, such as adultery, alcoholism, drug addiction, pedophilia, etc. So if you say someone is 'born into' homosexuality, then this could be applied to those behaviors also. Then based on that premise, one would assume that we are all doomed to live in a society that is disintegrating around us. I don't believe we are doomed, and I believe everyone has control over their own behavior. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, shadow_of_light said:

I wouldnt do it for they would use it in a sinful celebration.

l understand and there was a time l would say the same.

However, that intention is to encourage their sin. Without that intention you are only avoiding gov't problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Abu Hadi But religion is a choice. That was my argument. The First Amendment, upheld by the Supreme Court, protects at least one class of people who have definitely made a choice. Ergo, if I think that being gay is a choice,which I don't, why can't the protection be extended to them as well constitutionally? Then whether they were "born that way "or not is a non-argument. 

The Supreme Court bases its decisions on the Constitution, not the Bible or the Quran. 

Religion, although certain rare aspects of it can be restricted in the interests of society,  is generally protected as one of the pillars of society. Marriage is another pillar. Therefore one of the reasons for the marriage equality ruling.

 

 

Edited by LeftCoastMom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

We are guaranteed freedom of religion under the First Amendment. That is something I think we should keep. As far as someone being 'born that way', although there might be factors in their genes or environment that push them in that direction, it is not determined at birth. Otherwise, as was said above by Carlzone, all identical twins where one sibling is homosexual, the other one would also be homosexual. That is not the case, there have been studies done about this subject. some have been cited on other threads as well as elsewhere. 

If you are Native American, and you have a twin, that twin will also be Native American, 100% of the time, no exceptions. So that is what I mean by 'born into it'. That definition can get 'mucked up' sometimes, but that is how I define it. 

There are factors in the environment, genetics, overall conditions in society, tolerance for this behavior, etc, that will push some people in that direction. But this is the same for any behavior that we can probably agree are negative and destructive to the fabric of society, such as adultery, alcoholism, drug addiction, pedophilia, etc. So if you say someone is 'born into' homosexuality, then this could be applied to those behaviors also. Then based on that premise, one would assume that we are all doomed to live in a society that is disintegrating around us. I don't believe we are doomed, and I believe everyone has control over their own behavior. 

 Can probably cite twice as many scientific studies refuting all of what you brought up and positing that people are born with a sexual orientation.

But that was not my argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

If they want to celebrate their kufr, say for a religious event which promotes their false religion, same thing. Wouldn't bake a cake for them.

So if a non-Muslim refused to bake a cake for a Muslim couple's wedding, it would be acceptable?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally don't want to get into the science issue today because:

1. It's still inconclusive what causes sexual orientation ...if you are positing it has anything to do with fetal development,then that is not the fault of the individual any more than ethnicity. Sure, straight or gay, we can and should control our behavior. This society has decided to no longer favor only heterosexual marriage commitments. Marriage ,at least theoretically, controls behavior and encourages stability.

2. Most twin studies seem to be done on males....female homosexuality is even harder to study scientifically 

Found this in my notes. Take on twin studies. Seems genes are in there somewhere.

From Melissa Healy LA Times, Oct. 8, 2015

 

"Our best guess is that there are genes" that affect a man's sexual orientation "because that's what twin studies suggest," said Northwestern University psychologist J. Michael Bailey, who  has explored a range of physiological markers that point to homosexuality's origins in the womb. But the existence of identical twin pairs in which only one is homosexual "conclusively suggest that genes don't explain everything," Bailey added.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Black people and other people of color  in this country got tired of having to go out of town or to another county to get served if restaurants in the whole city or county refused to serve them. They got tired of bleeding to death because the local hospital would take only whites and the one admitting blacks or people of color  was too far away.  They got tired of going to separate substandard schools.  They got tired of not being able to use the bathroom. They got tired of not being allowed to be in certain parts of town ever or during certain times.  (I suspect Muslims would get equally tired of nonsense like this. )They did sit-ins, protests, etc, to get the Civil Rights Act passed. That's why the laws.  " The other bakery" often isn't there.

Edited by LeftCoastMom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our grandparents had to get off  and walk in the mud if white people came down the sidewalk.

Kids were educated in schools separate  from the local white kids and not even issued grades or graduation certificates for their work.

My husband's grandmother died in childbirth due to lack of adequate medical access that any white woman could easily get. All of 24 years old.

Just a few of the reasons why this is personal to me.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

I could care less if they refused. Tell those Muslims to find another bakery. Who cares.

The question basically becomes "should businesses be allowed to refuse service to whoever they like or should they be obliged to serve everyone?". 

Edited by Klanky
Forgot a few words

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Klanky said:

The question basically becomes "should businesses be allowed to refuse service to whoever they like or should they be obliged to serve everyone?". 

This is not about business previous  case the baker was a Jewish so he was superior to that couple but this christian baker is below of that  two groups & if it happens  for a muslim baker the court acts worser than christian (second) case maybe court will exile muslim baker  at conclusion  Jews matter second gays

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

This is not about business previous  case the baker was a Jewish so he was superior to that couple but this christian baker is below of that  two groups & if it happens  for a muslim baker the court acts worser than christian (second) case maybe court will exile muslim baker  at conclusion  Jews matter second gays

I don't understand what you mean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Salaam Aleikum,

If making halal food and serving is fine, does it matter how the people who receive the food use for? This is like same with any products we can sell, people can use it for good or bad intention.

Here, we know their intention. We know that they will use it for bad intentions.

If you sell knives to people and you dont know their intention, there is no problem. But if you know someone is going to use that knife for killing an innocent, you are not morally and Islamically allowed to sell a knife to him.

Edited by shadow_of_light

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Klanky said:

I don't understand what you mean

Jews >gays>christians> >Muslims (all Muslims are terrorists)

This is how American court decides 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Klanky said:

The question basically becomes "should businesses be allowed to refuse service to whoever they like or should they be obliged to serve everyone?". 

They should be allowed to refuse service to whoever. No need for government intervention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

^ Black people and other people of color  in this country got tired of having to go out of town or to another county to get served if restaurants in the whole city or county refused to serve them. They got tired of bleeding to death because the local hospital would take only whites and the one admitting blacks or people of color  was too far away.  They got tired of going to separate substandard schools.  They got tired of not being able to use the bathroom. They got tired of not being allowed to be in certain parts of town ever or during certain times.  (I suspect Muslims would get equally tired of nonsense like this. )They did sit-ins, protests, etc, to get the Civil Rights Act passed. That's why the laws.  " The other bakery" often isn't there.

When it comes to public institutions they have to serve everyone equally, but private businesses should have the right to deny or approve service to anyone for whatever reason. That's my opinion. 

The public institutions provide the basics, you're not going to die if a private business won't serve you a coke.

Finally, in this day and age, it would most likely self-regulate because people would boycott and expose racist businesses and they will be abandoned. But even if that doesn't happen, too bad.

I'm from liberal Sydney, Australia btw lol. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, King said:

This is a cop-out, you cannot have it both ways.  If you want to have a reasonable scientific discussion about something then stick to it, don't simply invoke God every time you are having difficulty responding to facts .  It is totally fine to say you believe something to be true because Islam says so, but then don't go on to scientifically reason about these things and then follow up with unscientific responses.

For me God is always number one no matter what science says. Science is faulty, God is not. Those who are involved in science know very well how much manipulation is going on in the "scientific" world. 

My point was that genes simply do not force anyone to become gay. Identical twins are as close to identical as anyone can get and still to a large extent they aren't gay at the same time. 

Also, just because some aspects are faulty in science that does not mean that everything in science is so and that valid points cannot be used. It differs from case to case depending on the specific aspects of that case, as anyone who is familiar with scrutinising scientific articles knows. One needs to scrutinise the whole process of knowledge formation and the conclusions drawn from it. 

Unfortunately, some people choose to worship science instead of God, even though they know the many weaknesses of science. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...