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In the Name of God بسم الله
shiasoldier786

John McCain Dies

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On 8/26/2018 at 2:33 PM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Were you not happy when Saddam was executed? Do you not pray that he is punished for what he had done? Do you think those Iraqis who celebrated his execution were immoral in their behaviour?

What about convicted criminals like rapists and murderers - if they are executed or sent to prison forever, do you not feel happy? If someone were to come and do something horrible to you, your family, your children, that it warranted death, but they were getting away with it - you would not feel happy when they die?

If not, then do you think that is a normal reaction or an abnormal one? Is it normal to not feel happy if a harm is removed from society or that it perishes? 

Furthermore, if you claim that you do not know much about this person or what he did, then perhaps it's better to not get involved in the discussion, especially since your comments may even be offensive to the millions who felt the brunt of what he would say and the decisions he made.

Wasalam

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum Brother.

Don't expect responses to your questions brother.  Earlier she said that liberals are not hateful of Islam.  I'm sure you have heard of Bill Mahr, he is a liberal and he hates Islam with a passion.

@Gaius I. Caesar

McCain's policies or the votes he made in Congress has killed thousands upon thousands of Yemenis, Syrians, and Iraqis.  Wa Allahi I'm baffled at some of your responses.  I'm soooooo angry and upset at how you are asking us not to respond or shut us down from speaking about the suffering, hardship and pain he has made in our region.  That is the problem, some Muslims in America have not an iota, a clue of what he has done!  Then when we want to speak out and say this man has blood on his hands, people have the audacity to say this is not the time.  Well, if not now then when?  When he is no longer a news story.  Now is the perfect time.  So people who didn't know, will know!

Five Democrats Join John McCain to Arm Saudi Arabia’s War on Yemen

To support the military industrial complex, U.S. turns a blind eye to human rights abuses and spread of terrorism

http://observer.com/2017/06/democrats-trump-administration-arms-sale-saudi-arabia-yemen/

I don't know if that is what she is "really saying".  I only know what she posted.  Pure Islam is tabara and tawali, these are branches of our religion.  When people choose to be in position of power they will be criticized and scrutinized dead or alive.  It is a huge responsibility and not to be taken lightly at all.  

Brother, please read what committees he was involved in below.

@LeftCoastMom

What was McCain's performance like with Native Americans?

@notme

No one gave peace to the innocent Yemenis, Syrians, Iraqis, and the list goes on to their families.  Ariel Sharon died after years of a comatose state.  We're supposed to be quiet out of respect of his family.  How does that make any sense?  If it was your family that was butchered, I'm sure your position would change.

Committee Assignments

Senator John McCain serves as Chairman of the Senate Committee on Armed Services; Member and former Chairman of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs; and Member of the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.

Armed Services

The Senate Committee on Armed Services is composed of 25 Senators. This Committee has jurisdiction for aeronautical and space activities peculiar to or primarily associated with the development of weapons systems or military operations; the common defense; the Department of Defense, the Department of the Army, the Department of the Navy, and the Department of the Air Force, generally; maintenance and operation of the Panama Canal, including administration, sanitation, and government of the Canal Zone; military research and development; national security aspects of nuclear energy; naval petroleum reserves, except those in Alaska; pay, promotion, retirement, and other benefits and privileges of members of the Armed Forces, including overseas education of civilian and military dependents; selective service system; and strategic and critical materials necessary for the common defense.

Senator McCain currently serves as Chairman of the Committee. To learn more about Chairman McCain’s work, visit the Committee’s website and follow @SASCMajority on Twitter.

Indian Affairs

The Senate Committee on Indian Affairs was formed in 1977 and currently has 15 members. This Committee has jurisdiction to study the unique problems of American Indian, Native Hawaiian, and Alaska Native peoples and to propose legislation to alleviate these difficulties. These issues include, but are not limited to, Indian education, economic development, land management, trust responsibilities, health care, and claims against the United States. Additionally, all legislation proposed by Members of the Senate that specifically pertains to American Indians, Native Hawaiians, or Alaska Natives is under the jurisdiction of the Committee.

Senator McCain served as Chairman of the Committee from 2005 to 2006.

Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs

The Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs was renamed as the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs in 2005 and possesses 15 members. This committee has jurisdiction for matters pertaining to homeland security, including the 9-11 Commission; the District of Columbia; government management, including E-Government, lobbying and ethics, federal contracts, and federal nominations; corporate management; environmental oversight; energy; health and public safety; civil service; and the Postal Service.

Senator McCain previously served as Ranking Member on the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs’ Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, the Committee’s chief investigative subcommittee, during the 113th Congress.

Edited by ShiaChat Mod
Mod Note: Moderators can reduce the size of excessively large fonts to a standard size of 12-14.

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1 hour ago, notme said:

There is no moral obligation that I know of. I believe the dislike of criticizing a recently deceased person is cultural. 

Do we have any examples in hadith of how The Prophet or His Family responded to deaths of tyrants? 

I don't really have an exhaustive list of their reactions, would have to look into it further, but one that is coming to mind right now is a tradition from Imam Sadiq (a) who says that the woman of Bani Hashim celebrated (by beautifying themselves) when they heard that the killers of Imam Husayn (a) had been killed by Mukhtar.

I know no one is "celebrating" McCain here, but I felt some of the points made by this community activist were relevant:

Quote

Raja Abdulhaq

Few points regarding the celebration of McCain by some Muslim activists:

- It's overwhelming to see Muslim activists celebrating McCain as a hero given his problematic history. McCain did not just fight in Vietnam, he supported American imperialist wars on Afghanistan and Iraq, paving the way towards the destruction of both countries and the killing of more than a million Muslims. He also supported the apartheid system in South Africa. Basically, he was an imperialist "hero."

- We have been told that we can be "patriotic Americans" and still condemn the imperialist nature of American foreign policy. We were told that it was part of being American to disagree with American wars overseas. However, it seems like we are not allowed to do that anymore, instead we are now required to celebrate and mourn war criminals merely for being American. We are now indirectly asked to become agents for the empire.

- This confusion is without a doubt one of the reasons for the "radicalization" of our youth. How do we expect our youth to respect or believe in anything we sell them, when they see and hear the mixed messages delivered by some Muslim activists and leaders, who on the one hand talk about the misery of the Ummah and the need for justice in one Khutbah, and on the other hand cheer the people responsible for these miseries? When we are preventing them from that "balanced" position of being American and anti-imperialism at the same time, what do we expect them to do in return?

- It's also worrisome when Islamic adab is purposely conflated with naivety and gullibility when dealing with political matters. We can not silence people from critiquing and condemning the criminal history of McCain using the "respect the dead" arguments. Islam does not teach us to be wolves, but also does not want us to be sheep either. We should celebrate the demise of criminals and tyrants, as Allah says in Aya #9 of Surat Al-Ahzab, like Hitler, Sharon, Sisi, Assad, etc.

- It's also hypocritical and misleading to our people when some of these Muslim activists and leaders demonize foreign criminals and tyrants, especially those opposed by the US, day in and day out, yet when it comes to American war criminals, we suddenly have to see "good" in people.

- Of course McCain was not a tyrant himself, but he was a leading figure in the destruction of Muslim and non-Muslim countries and death of millions of humans. The least we should do is to not erase history through celebrating his "legacy." The disingenuous attempts to present McCain as a "decent man" distort our narrative of the fight against oppression and injustice. When the criminals are being celebrated as heroes for minor "benefits," how are we going to defeat evil?

- It appears that in the age of Trump, anybody can become a hero in the eyes of these Muslim-Americans as long as they pay lip service against Islamophobia. Hence why some Muslims rush to work with Zionists who fool them by their interfaith and diversity lies. This new trend is not just dangerous towards the very essence of Islam, it's a betrayal to the Ummah and its pains.

- Finally, it seems that some Muslim activists and leaders themselves are helping the empire in assimilating Muslims in the US through the good vs. bad Muslim model. It's becoming crystal clear that being Muslim-American requires us to embrace imperialism as our worldview, including towards our Ummah.

 

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58 minutes ago, shiasoldier786 said:

Gaius/notme, can you answer this question pls.

If someone in a position of power was a proponent of an unjust war which killed your relatives/friends, wouldnt you rejoice when he died? 

I don't know if I would publicly rejoice or not and hope to never find out. 

It isn't about what's going inside my mind, it's about public display. 

In any event, he will receive just recompense in the afterlife. 

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30 minutes ago, notme said:

Do we have any examples in hadith of how The Prophet or His Family responded to deaths of tyrants? 

Several;

عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ قَالَ: دَخَلْتُ عَلَى أَبِي الْحَسَنِ (ع) فَقَالَ يَا مُحَمَّدُ حَدَثَ بِآلِ فَرَجٍ حَدَثٌ فَقُلْتُ مَاتَ عُمَرُ فَقَالَ الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ حَتَّى أَحْصَيْتُ لَهُ أَرْبَعاً وَ عِشْرِينَ مَرَّةً فَقُلْتُ يَا سَيِّدِي لَوْ عَلِمْتُ أَنَّ هَذَا يَسُرُّكَ لَجِئْتُ حَافِياً أَعْدُو إِلَيْكَ قَالَ يَا مُحَمَّدُ أَ وَ لَا تَدْرِي مَا قَالَ لَعَنَهُ اللَّهُ لِمُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ أَبِي قَالَ قُلْتُ لَا قَالَ خَاطَبَهُ فِي شَيْ‏ءٍ فَقَالَ أَظُنُّكَ سَكْرَانَ فَقَالَ أَبِي‏ اللَّهُمَّ إِنْ كُنْتَ تَعْلَمُ أَنِّي أَمْسَيْتُ لَكَ صَائِماً فَأَذِقْهُ طَعْمَ الْحَرْبِ وَ ذُلَّ الْأَسْرِ فَوَ اللَّهِ إِنْ ذَهَبَتِ الْأَيَّامُ حَتَّى حُرِبَ مَالُهُ وَ مَا كَانَ لَهُ ثُمَّ أُخِذَ أَسِيراً وَ هُوَ ذَا قَدْ مَاتَ لَا رَحِمَهُ اللَّهُ 

Kafi 1:497

Rough translation: Imam Hadi (as) was happy and thanked God 24 time upon hearing the news of the death of a person who has once insulted his father, Imam al-Jawad (as) and accused of being drunk while the Imam actually was fasting. (the person was an enemy to the Ahlulbayt in general) the narrator says "had I known you would get this much happy, I would have run to you barefoot to give you the news of his death."

Another

فَبَعَثَ بِرَأْسِ ابْنِ زِيَادٍ إِلَى عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ (عَلَيْهِمَا السَّلَامُ) فَأَدْخَلَ عَلَيْهِ وَ هُوَ يَتَغَدَّى‏، فَقَالَ عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ (عَلَيْهِمَا السَّلَامُ):

أُدْخِلْتُ عَلَى ابْنِ زِيَادٍ وَ هُوَ يَتَغَدَّى وَ رَأْسُ أَبِي بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ، فَقُلْتُ: اللَّهُمَّ لَا تُمِتْنِي حَتَّى تُرِيَنِي رَأْسَ ابْنِ زِيَادٍ وَ أَنَا أَتَغَدَّى، فَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ الَّذِي أَجَابَ دَعْوَتِي.

Bihar 45:335

I'll add others when I get time. 

And, Imam Ali says a true believer never verbally abuses a mourning person

و لا یشمت بالمصاب

So, to avoid verbal abuse of the family of the deceased is not an exclusive american culture to be proud of, actually all human societies have that attitude in some form or another, but to mix these situations is incorrect.

 

Edited by mesbah

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It's scary some of your positions are on this very thread.  When you see the enemies sending condolences, I hope you wake up and smell the coffee, literally.

Insh'Allah this year for Muharam our speakers focus on lecturing on speaking out against the injustices of rulers, politicians, tyrants whoever they maybe.  

Tawalla and Tabaraa

What is our responsibility and what positions do we take against oppressors?

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7 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

we do not have to embarrass ourselves when the millions affected by his decisions

I feel the same way, there is  no obligation to respect him, but there is for his family . Even if they say things about  him that I  strongly disagree with. Look at it from this perspective, would you curse him in front of his grieving family?  We can agree he did stupid  and horrible things but to see nothing wrong with trashing  a recently dead  person is just as bad.  It's the mark of a spineless and  Godless coward in my eyes.  

 

15 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Perhaps a better alternative needs to be sought so that those who feel condemning a criminal somehow disrespects or disturbs the family or interferes with their mourning period, so that we do not have to embarrass ourselves when the millions affected by his decisions ask us why we were silent on his death, the one time when he will be spoken about the most in the media, after which no one will care about him or even mention him and in fact most likely will end up going in the books as an American icon.

picture with quote of Surely silence can sometimes be the most eloquent reply.

^No need to find an alternative solution, Imam Ali (as) gave the most respectful and  eloquent answer  for that solution.

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@mesbah looking forward to reading the translations. 

It's extremely unlikely that McCain's family is reading here, so the issue of verbal abuse of mourning person is almost definitely absent. 

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43 minutes ago, Laayla said:

It's very scary of some of your positions are on this very thread.  When you see the enemies sending condolences, I hope you wake up and smell the coffee, literally.

Was it wrong when I said that we need to focus on our own shortcomings and let Allah judge McCain? (I, again, only remember him from the presidential campaign, which seems to fall on deaf ears.) Too often we send lanats and hatefully judge others when we should look at the person in the mirror, because by spreading hate against other Muslims, we are weakening the Ummah and making ourselves look bad. 

Besides, if anyone wants to criticize McCain, the right thing to do would be to wait until about a week after his passing. Like @notme said. We don’t have to like McCain or support him, but we don’t have to condemn him before he’s been buried. His family is hurting right now,  would you like lanats being sent on your family members who acted poorly in any way just right after their deaths? I’m sure with any family, there are oppressive, and unjust people. 

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43 minutes ago, Laayla said:

It's scary some of your positions are on this very thread.  When you see the enemies sending condolences, I hope you wake up and smell the coffee, literally.

If you're referring to me, I am not an enemy.

59 minutes ago, Laayla said:

McCain's policies or the votes he made in Congress has killed thousands upon thousands of Yemenis, Syrians, and Iraqis.  Wa Allahi I'm baffled at some of your responses.  I'm soooooo angry and upset at how you are asking us not to respond or shut us down from speaking about the suffering, hardship and pain he has made in our region.  That is the problem, some Muslims in America have not an iota, a clue of what he has done!  Then when we want to speak out and say this man has blood on his hands, people have the audacity to say this is not the time.  Well, if not now then when?  When he is no longer a news story.  Now is the perfect time.  So people who didn't know, will know!

I'm glad he is dead but Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is far better judge than anyone in this thread, period.  Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is Self-Sufficient and Aware, He has no need of your anger. I'd say six months from now is the time, sister.

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Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum

 

@Gaius I. Caesar

Brother, are you going to attend his funeral?  We are not at his funeral.  We are voicing our positions on SC.  

If you want to extend an olive branch to his family, by all means go ahead. 

But I will empathize with the hundreds of thousands of families that were killed and maimed by his policies.

That is your choice not to voice your frustration.  I respect your position.  But, what still rings in my ears are the Yemeni, Syrian, Iraqi children who were killed and maimed.  What still rings in my ears are the orphans.   Now I'm not surprised anymore when there was a political group called "Shias for Bush."   Maybe after Bush dies, they will make a majlis on his behalf, I promise you I won't be surprised.  History repeats itself.  It started with Muslim ibn 3qeel in Kufa.   Time will tell whose side we are on.  I can not guarantee my ownself where I will be.  I only ask Allah swt to keep me steadfast on His religion, and give me the baseera and knowledge to stay with the camp of Imam Hussain 3la salam.  God give me the strength and knowledge to show my children which camp to choose as well.  It is black and white, evil vs good.

I&A:   If my family member was an oppressor, harming people, taking their rights, killing them, yes by all means I would support them and they have every right to do so.  

If my child (God forbid) was a collaborator, a spy for an enemy state, a mafia man, I would be the first to say good riddance.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

POST-EDIT: Brother GC, come on I wasn't referring to you as the enemy!!!!!  What's wrong with you!  I was referring to the Munafiqeen al Khalq.  Stop assuming the worst of me!  Bism Allah.

POST-EDIT II:  I&A Good job for your professor. Who is the face then for liberals?  Yes, they sure do love Muslims, Mash'Allah.

ohhhh, so I will do me and you do you then.  lol  in other words, we agree to disagree.  Finally, I have nothing else to respond to you sister.  Your position and mine have been very clear.  I have nothing else to say to you.  Goodnight.

Edited by Laayla

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@Laayla

you know nothing about the American people. Bill Mahar is not the face of all Democrats/liberals. Regular liberals really are respectful and loving towards Muslims. A liberal professor helped combat islamophobia and assigned a prayer room for my college for Muslims on campus. So stop basing America solely with what you see on tv. 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

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10 minutes ago, Laayla said:

If my child (God forbid) was a collaborator, a spy for an enemy state, a mafia man, I would be the first to say good riddance.

 

Well, that’s you. I would probably say, “That’s really too bad, but let Allah decide, since He knows everyone the best.” And wouldn’t be so heartless to openly, out loud send lanats before that person has been buried. People are grieving, and regardless if your child, ever does anything to oppress others, I’m sure you’ll be grieving too for the loss. Because a death in the family is always sad. 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

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Pretty much everyone agrees that people like McCain should be condemned, especially if said individuals are falsely praised.  The issue here is how to do so in a productive fashion.  I am not aware of what Islam prescribes, but screaming lanats and condemning people to hell hardly works.  It is better to avoid emotional outbursts and carefully set the record straight.  People on the other side will be more willing to listen.

As far as the timing of all this is concerned, I see both point of views, there should be room to allow the family to grieve, but at the same time a few months from now McCain will be old news and all people would have been exposed to would have been the adulation in the media. Timing is critical, but it just depends, sometimes it is better to wait and at other times it isn't.

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20 minutes ago, notme said:

It's extremely unlikely that McCain's family is reading here

That's the point. so why our 'american raised' members try so hard not to offend the family?

Plus, a family member who supports injustice and cruelty, has no respect.

By all of these condemnations and stuff, this person is getting only 0.01% of what he actually deserves, so the family should get ready for more if they are still on his side.

By this logic, we can't punish any criminal, because the family gets hurt more by actual punishment itself, than ill-words after death.

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11 minutes ago, Laayla said:

POST-EDIT II:  I&A Good job for your professor. Who is the face then for liberals?  Yes, they sure do love Muslims, Mash'Allah.

You are a hateful, angry person. You won’t even acknowledge there are good liberals out there. You choose to see hate. And then you wonder why people talk poorly about Arabs and Arab Muslims in general? Well, this is why. You just showed your true colors. You’ve proved yourself to be looking through an uncultured, judgmental standpoint from your limited view of the American people. 

 

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@King thanks for your balanced post. All attacks and condemnations of our follow Shia aside, this discussion is turning out to be informative and thought provoking. 

I hope a member is able to find examples of how the Prophet and Imams reacted to the deaths of tyrants. That would be best, not bashing each other for our differences.

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1 minute ago, Laayla said:

f you want to extend an olive branch to his family, by all means go ahead. 

But I will empathize with the hundreds of thousands of families that were killed and maimed by his policies.

That is your choice not to voice your frustration.  I respect your position

I am not going to his funeral, I don't know them nor am I extending the olive branch to the McCain family because they did nothing wrong.  John did and he's dead now. Justice is served. Is that clear to you?

Also you don't respect my position, because you said  "It's scary some of your positions are on this very thread.  When you see the enemies sending condolences, I hope you wake up and smell the coffee, literally." My position apparently is against  Islam and frightens you.

In fact you don't know what my position is: All I am asking you is to be patient and that is beyond the pale of akhlaq to curse him while he is barely in the grave.  Give his family dignity.

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30 minutes ago, notme said:

 looking forward to reading the translations. 

have to find the main texts of the rest.

The one I translated is clear enough though.

the one I didn't translate, is about when Imam Sajad (as) went to prostration and thanked God, upon hearing the news the death of Ibn Ziyad.

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