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In the Name of God بسم الله

John McCain Dies

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  • Development Team
43 minutes ago, Laayla said:

It's scary some of your positions are on this very thread.  When you see the enemies sending condolences, I hope you wake up and smell the coffee, literally.

If you're referring to me, I am not an enemy.

59 minutes ago, Laayla said:

McCain's policies or the votes he made in Congress has killed thousands upon thousands of Yemenis, Syrians, and Iraqis.  Wa Allahi I'm baffled at some of your responses.  I'm soooooo angry and upset at how you are asking us not to respond or shut us down from speaking about the suffering, hardship and pain he has made in our region.  That is the problem, some Muslims in America have not an iota, a clue of what he has done!  Then when we want to speak out and say this man has blood on his hands, people have the audacity to say this is not the time.  Well, if not now then when?  When he is no longer a news story.  Now is the perfect time.  So people who didn't know, will know!

I'm glad he is dead but Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is far better judge than anyone in this thread, period.  Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is Self-Sufficient and Aware, He has no need of your anger. I'd say six months from now is the time, sister.

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Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum

 

@Gaius I. Caesar

Brother, are you going to attend his funeral?  We are not at his funeral.  We are voicing our positions on SC.  

If you want to extend an olive branch to his family, by all means go ahead. 

But I will empathize with the hundreds of thousands of families that were killed and maimed by his policies.

That is your choice not to voice your frustration.  I respect your position.  But, what still rings in my ears are the Yemeni, Syrian, Iraqi children who were killed and maimed.  What still rings in my ears are the orphans.   Now I'm not surprised anymore when there was a political group called "Shias for Bush."   Maybe after Bush dies, they will make a majlis on his behalf, I promise you I won't be surprised.  History repeats itself.  It started with Muslim ibn 3qeel in Kufa.   Time will tell whose side we are on.  I can not guarantee my ownself where I will be.  I only ask Allah swt to keep me steadfast on His religion, and give me the baseera and knowledge to stay with the camp of Imam Hussain 3la salam.  God give me the strength and knowledge to show my children which camp to choose as well.  It is black and white, evil vs good.

I&A:   If my family member was an oppressor, harming people, taking their rights, killing them, yes by all means I would support them and they have every right to do so.  

If my child (God forbid) was a collaborator, a spy for an enemy state, a mafia man, I would be the first to say good riddance.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

POST-EDIT: Brother GC, come on I wasn't referring to you as the enemy!!!!!  What's wrong with you!  I was referring to the Munafiqeen al Khalq.  Stop assuming the worst of me!  Bism Allah.

POST-EDIT II:  I&A Good job for your professor. Who is the face then for liberals?  Yes, they sure do love Muslims, Mash'Allah.

ohhhh, so I will do me and you do you then.  lol  in other words, we agree to disagree.  Finally, I have nothing else to respond to you sister.  Your position and mine have been very clear.  I have nothing else to say to you.  Goodnight.

Edited by Laayla
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@Laayla

you know nothing about the American people. Bill Mahar is not the face of all Democrats/liberals. Regular liberals really are respectful and loving towards Muslims. A liberal professor helped combat islamophobia and assigned a prayer room for my college for Muslims on campus. So stop basing America solely with what you see on tv. 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors
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10 minutes ago, Laayla said:

If my child (God forbid) was a collaborator, a spy for an enemy state, a mafia man, I would be the first to say good riddance.

 

Well, that’s you. I would probably say, “That’s really too bad, but let Allah decide, since He knows everyone the best.” And wouldn’t be so heartless to openly, out loud send lanats before that person has been buried. People are grieving, and regardless if your child, ever does anything to oppress others, I’m sure you’ll be grieving too for the loss. Because a death in the family is always sad. 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors
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20 minutes ago, notme said:

It's extremely unlikely that McCain's family is reading here

That's the point. so why our 'american raised' members try so hard not to offend the family?

Plus, a family member who supports injustice and cruelty, has no respect.

By all of these condemnations and stuff, this person is getting only 0.01% of what he actually deserves, so the family should get ready for more if they are still on his side.

By this logic, we can't punish any criminal, because the family gets hurt more by actual punishment itself, than ill-words after death.

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11 minutes ago, Laayla said:

POST-EDIT II:  I&A Good job for your professor. Who is the face then for liberals?  Yes, they sure do love Muslims, Mash'Allah.

You are a hateful, angry person. You won’t even acknowledge there are good liberals out there. You choose to see hate. And then you wonder why people talk poorly about Arabs and Arab Muslims in general? Well, this is why. You just showed your true colors. You’ve proved yourself to be looking through an uncultured, judgmental standpoint from your limited view of the American people. 

 

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@King thanks for your balanced post. All attacks and condemnations of our follow Shia aside, this discussion is turning out to be informative and thought provoking. 

I hope a member is able to find examples of how the Prophet and Imams reacted to the deaths of tyrants. That would be best, not bashing each other for our differences.

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  • Development Team
1 minute ago, Laayla said:

f you want to extend an olive branch to his family, by all means go ahead. 

But I will empathize with the hundreds of thousands of families that were killed and maimed by his policies.

That is your choice not to voice your frustration.  I respect your position

I am not going to his funeral, I don't know them nor am I extending the olive branch to the McCain family because they did nothing wrong.  John did and he's dead now. Justice is served. Is that clear to you?

Also you don't respect my position, because you said  "It's scary some of your positions are on this very thread.  When you see the enemies sending condolences, I hope you wake up and smell the coffee, literally." My position apparently is against  Islam and frightens you.

In fact you don't know what my position is: All I am asking you is to be patient and that is beyond the pale of akhlaq to curse him while he is barely in the grave.  Give his family dignity.

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30 minutes ago, notme said:

 looking forward to reading the translations. 

have to find the main texts of the rest.

The one I translated is clear enough though.

the one I didn't translate, is about when Imam Sajad (as) went to prostration and thanked God, upon hearing the news the death of Ibn Ziyad.

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3 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

fact you don't know what my position is: All I am asking you is to be patient and that is beyond the pale of akhlaq to curse him while he is barely in the grave.  Give his family dignity.

Exactly. Islam is about having good akhlaq. How to be a decent person. It doesn’t kill anyone to wait a week before sprouting lanats, which is what I’m saying, and what notme, you, are saying. 

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37 minutes ago, Laayla said:

 

 

 

 

 

@LeftCoastMom

What was McCain's performance like with Native Americans?

 

Indian Affairs

The Senate Committee on Indian Affairs was formed in 1977 and currently has 15 members. This Committee has jurisdiction to study the unique problems of American Indian, Native Hawaiian, and Alaska Native peoples and to propose legislation to alleviate these difficulties. These issues include, but are not limited to, Indian education, economic development, land management, trust responsibilities, health care, and claims against the United States. Additionally, all legislation proposed by Members of the Senate that specifically pertains to American Indians, Native Hawaiians, or Alaska Natives is under the jurisdiction of the Committee.

Senator McCain served as Chairman of the Committee from 2005 to 2006.

Definitely mixed. His state has a large number of native citizens. One of the largest tribes ( the Dineh or "Navajo") has much of its population within its borders,so there is a voting bloc there. He was problematic towards the end of his life with land issues such as Oak Flats, but also had, in the not too distant past , introduced legislation that would have strengthened the Religious Freedom Act for natives and ,had it passed, made life a lot easier for a lot of us in regards to protection of sacred sites. So...good and bad. He had the right idea on some things. As it is protocol to write something positive on  these occasions, the NCAI released this:

“THE NATIONAL CONGRESS OF AMERICAN INDIANS GIVES HONOR TO THE LIFE OF SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN AND CELEBRATES THE TIME WE HAD WITH HIM AS A TIRELESS CHAMPION FOR INDIAN COUNTRY AND TRIBAL SOVEREIGNTY. THE SENATOR DEDICATED MANY YEARS TO INDIAN COUNTRY. SERVING AS LONGTIME MEMBER AND FORMER CHAIRMAN OF THE SENATE COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS, HE MET FREQUENTLY WITH TRIBAL LEADERS ON THE HILL, IN THEIR COMMUNITY, AND AT OUR GATHERINGS. IN HIS LAST SPEECH AT NCAI SENATOR MCCAIN SAID, “WE MUST LISTEN MORE TO YOU, AND GET OUT OF THE WAY OF TRIBAL AUTHORITY.” AS WE CLOSE OUT THE DAY, WE EXTEND OUR SINCERE CONDOLENCES WITH THE FAMILY OF SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN.” 

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12 minutes ago, King said:

Pretty much everyone agrees that people like McCain should be condemned, especially if said individuals are falsely praised.  The issue here is how to do so in a productive fashion.  I am not aware of what Islam prescribes, but screaming lanats and condemning people to hell hardly works.  It is better to avoid emotional outbursts and carefully set the record straight.  People on the other side will be more willing to listen.

As far as the timing of all this is concerned, I see both point of views, there should be room to allow the family to grieve, but at the same time a few months from now McCain will be old news and all people would have been exposed to would have been the adulation in the media. Timing is critical, but it just depends, sometimes it is better to wait and at other times it isn't.

Just looking at MSM, I don't think anyone is going to get air time other than those who are adulating.  There will be lots of criticism when that dies down and it is no longer thought to be disrespectful to his family.  Also, without all this MSM noise, people will actually not be distracted from listening.

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7 minutes ago, mesbah said:

That's the point. so why our 'american raised' members try so hard not to offend the family?

It's deeply ingrained in our culture, I believe. Besides, anything posted on the internet is public. Who knows what media outlet is going to reference shiachat? 

7 minutes ago, mesbah said:

By this logic, we can't punish any criminal, because the family gets hurt more by actual punishment itself, than ill-words after death.

No, that's not logical. A more apt analogy would be not celebrating the execution of a convicted criminal for fear of hurting his grieving family. Justice is justice. 

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@Laayla

If John McCain waged war against other people of other nationalities and of religions other than Islam, (Sikhs, polytheists, Jews, Hindus, Bhuddists, Mormons, etc.) you probably wouldn’t have batted an eye. And would probably support him, since he would then be fighting against non-Muslims, but since he did bad to Muslims in the Arab regions, that’s why you’re angry. 

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Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum.

I&A Thank you for your perspective sister.  I'm an Angry Muslim, thank you. If it would make you feel better, you can address me as AM.  Has a nice ring to it.

GC:  Brother, I'm sorry my communication is not clear.  Earlier there was a tweet from Maryam Rajavi and Reza Pahlavi.  They are my enemies brother, not you.  I cannot be silent in the face of a tyrant, that's not what my Imam teaches me.

LCM:  Thank you for your response.  I'm always learning from you.  :)

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

POST-EDIT

GC

What are you implying that I need to do better than that?  You assumed I was referring to you as the enemy, and I responded absolutely not you, but to Rajavi and Pahlavi.  Please realize that I also respond to other people's posts as well.  It is very tiring to keep up with your accusations.  You can think whatever you want brother, I'm just pointing it out once and for all.  I'm not going to be a broken record. But you have my word, and I do promise you this, I have spoke and will speak out against him.  Yesterday, today, and tomorrow, I will show no mercy on a man who hated Islam and killed innocent Muslims, until my dying breath.  You can't take that freedom away from me, as much as you try. That is my right!

 

 

Edited by Laayla
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1 minute ago, notme said:

It's deeply ingrained in our culture, I believe.

Nope. (with all due respect)

It's because you -'the American raised members'- do not actually see him as an enemy, or at least "the other."

let me give you an example and make a test. Imagine you were there when Hitler died, upon hearing the news of his death, you would probably show public happiness, that's what all americans did at that time, ignoring the "deep american culture" of respecting the dignity of the deceased person.

It is about the social network you're living in.

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1 minute ago, Laayla said:

GC:  Brother, I'm sorry my communication is not clear.  Earlier there was a tweet from Maryam Rajavi and Reza Pahlavi.  They are my enemies brother, not you.  I cannot be silent in the face of a tyrant, that's not what my Imam teaches me.

You need to do way better that,  I never once saw a mention of these two in our argument. ^ 

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18 minutes ago, notme said:

would be not celebrating the execution of a convicted criminal

Well, sometimes the celebration is uncalled for because everybody already knows the guy was a criminal.

but other times, the propaganda machine is just taking the free benefit of 'grieving time' and present a heroic picture of that criminal. still be silent? and let them do what they want? No.

One person stands against that false propaganda with emotions, another person with spreading information, they complete each other.

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20 minutes ago, Laayla said:

I&A Thank you for your perspective sister.  I'm an Angry Muslim, thank you. If it would make you feel better, you can address me as AM.  Has a nice ring to it.

Again, sarcastic and hateful. Because you choose to see hate. You choose to be negative. Instead of admitting, “yeah you know, I’m angry at John McCain’s actions,” and leaving the conversation at that, you choose to resort to sarcasm. That’s why Arabs are seen often as rude and uncultured.

I compliment hijabi women on their hijabs while at work. (Just like everyone compliments my mom’s headscarf since it’s the polite thing to do here.) The Arab women who were not born/originally from the US, either 1. Scowled, 2. Made an ugly face after I would compliment them.

Whereas the Arab-Americans (Arabs who were born here.) said a simple thank you and smiled like how the majority of the people act in America. Many Arab women act uncultured and that’s why are thought of poorly by Americans. It’s not Islam they think poorly of, it’s Arab culture. 

 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors
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1 minute ago, shiasoldier786 said:

This tweet is on point

 

Exactly what I wanted to say but I feared some members would get upset or offended.

The story of many of 'great historical American figures' is that of McCain. Because naive people said let's remain silent, the propaganda made heroes out of them.

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2 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

The man just died, I find it extremely juvenile and in  poor taste to see Muslims bashing on a dead guy who probably isn't cold or hasn't been buried yet as I write this post.  As for what Notme said, we don't have to say positive things about him. We can say nothing at all about McCain. 

Wasalam

Oh don’t worry, he definitely isn’t cold

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  Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum.

Brother@mesbah be courageous and speak your mind.

I have been called names left, right, and center and it doesn't stop me from responding.  

Never be silent and don't allow anyone to silence you.

I honor and respect Americans like Rodimus Prime, Mash'Allah his tweet is 100% accurate and hits the bullseye.  I wish there was a way I could introduce Imam Hussain 3la salam to him as da3wa, but alas I do not have Twitter.  It is all about truth vs falsehood, Alhamd'Allah.  Allah swt brighten his heart.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

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1 minute ago, Laayla said:

have been called names left, right, and center and it doesn't stop me from responding.  

People are not calling you names, people are calling out your behavior. There’s a huge difference. 

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I am surprised this went to four pages.

Anyway two small comments:

-to the person who said democrats are not anti muslim, it might be worth noting that they have been equally as violent and murderous as their republican counterparts. 

-to the person who said justice has been sserved, I beg to differ. McCain and his likes should have been tried at an international court.

Wallahu a'lam

 

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  • Development Team
2 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

-to the person who said justice has been sserved, I beg to differ. McCain and his likes should have been tried at an international court

Too late for that now, he will face a bigger court on Qiyamah^

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3 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

This man, as much as I despise him, his views and policies , is somebody's father, husband and grandfather...  Hence, I am not giving him respect but rather his  family.   Respecting them is never baseless, they suffered a loss in the family.

Who really cares about his family when we lose an oppressor? What respect his family deserve from us from an oppressors son?

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Well this was a sad thread to read.

If you love justice, you hate injustice. If you love Allah, you hate enemies of Allah. If you love Ahlulbayt (a.s), you hate the enemies of ahlulbayt (a.s).

I'm sure we can all read between the lines and see where this logic can lead (actually maybe not lol - I'm saying this generally so nobody shoot me).

In Islam, sometimes expressing hatred means to have good a5laq, we are not pacifists. Sending curses (la3na) certainly isn't disrespectful/poor a5laq like sabb (swearing) would be, and la3na is certainly called for when pure evil of an individual is apparent.

The one thing I definitely want to say is, let us remember what it means to stay silent when oppression is rampant; those muslims who knew what was going on and stayed silent (even though they were capable to physically or verbally intervene) while and after Imam Hussein (a.s)/his family were murdered are just as guilty as those who sharpened their swords and shot their arrows - that's because the side of justice was clearly apparent, thus any side except the side of justice equals injustice.

Anyways bringing it back, when a person expresses their passion and delight at news of insects like mccain dying, even if some of us might disagree, we should stay silent and respect our muslim brethren who are reminded of deep wounds some of us might never be able to imagine. Certainly their feelings deserve far more respect over random families who are not even reading any of this.

Of course if you are defending a person(s) who was possibly righteous or someone you know & care about, that is a different story, but this story seems pretty clear-cut.

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24 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

Anyways bringing it back, when a person expresses their passion and delight at news of insects like mccain dying.

Just one objection to your excellent post - what have insects done to deserve to be insulted (by being compared to McCain)? :hahaha:

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1 hour ago, dragonxx said:

n Islam, sometimes expressing hatred means to have good a5laq, we are not pacifists. Sending curses (la3na) certainly isn't disrespectful/poor a5laq like sabb (swearing) would be, and la3na is certainly called for when pure evil of an individual is apparent.

It is very poor akhlaq and in poor taste to send lanats on someone who probably hasn’t been buried. If we wait or week or two, wouldn’t it be better to talk about someone’s sins and/oppressive behaviors? Islam teaches us to not harbor anger and hatred in our hearts. Sending lanats before someone has been buried is cultural, not Islam, and that Hadith about one of the Imams (AS) thanking Allah for taking the life of the oppressor is not the same as sending a thousand lanats on them upon hearing the news of death. One causes relief, and the other response creates anger, Fitnah, and social discord. 

Like I said before, we need to focus on our own behavior. Focusing all our energies on sending lanats to someone we have never met is so unproductive, and we are wasting our energy on negative things. It’s just going to make us resentful. 

We should try to improve ourselves by seeing how we can treat people better, how to help others, how to show mercy and empathy in our communities, start a new project to influence and help the youth, brighten someone’s day by smiling at someone, etc. 

Many people in political power will abuse it, no matter the race or religion. Instead of focusing on the mess-ups that they cause, how can we make our lives better and how can we create kindness in our communities? 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors
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